 Poster: A snowHead
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Just thought I would post this if anyone wants to join this petition, the words below are taken form the email I received, the aim is to get a 1,000 petitioners.
EU law says that equivalent qualifications should be recognised automatically unless there is a “substantial difference” in training in the host country and destination – in this case the UK and France. The British Association of Snowsport instructors (BASI) gives internationally recognised skiing qualifications, but to teach in France an extra “euro test” has to be passed. This test discriminates against non-French ski schools.
French instructors are allowed to teach without this top diploma, but British instructors cannot unless their school has ten fully French qualified test holders. This is a “non-tariff barrier,” designed to stop competition. The European Commission, the EU’s competition watchdog, should make sure this market is just as open to competition as the UK energy market is to French companies.
British ski companies have brought hundreds of thousands of euros to the local economies of French and other ski-resorts struggling through the recession. Europe’s economies need competition, not local protectionism, if they are to get back on their feet.
http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Open_up_French_ski_tuition_to_nonFrench_ski_schools/?tiqMEeb
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 27-04-13 19:12; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Signed.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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radar,
The statements made in the petition are inaccurate. Rewrite it so it is factually accurate and i will happily sign.
p.s How many British ski schools in France have 10 or more ISTD's ?
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stewart woodward, Hi, the words are from an email I received, they are not my words, maybe you can make a comment through the petition site or contact the person who set it up.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Agreed, that's the problem with all the petitions we've been asked to sign so far, they're factually incorrect and some (not this one particularly) poorly written. It is a complex situation to summarise, but presenting a petition with errors in it only weakens the case and gives wriggle room for those on the other side of the argument.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| radar wrote: |
| French instructors are allowed to teach without this top diploma |
They need the test technique to teach as a trainee. AFAIKS the French cursus is much stricter than the BASI cursus.
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On another thread, people are talking about how comparatively easy it is to get a job as an instructor in Austria, because Austrian youngsters aren't that keen. Why don't British ski schools go and start up businesses in Austria, as there seem to be fewer barriers there?
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With French unemployment heading to 25% doubt they will rush to allow 'foreigners' in to teach.. Yep unfair but understandable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If there are a few of these supposedly inaccurate petitions floating around, wouldn't this place would be a suitable resource to 'crowdsource' one that everyone agrees is factually accurate and could then be put to the masses?
Have to say though, even if the principle of upholding EU law for all is a just one, sites such as avaaz are going to be more occupied with saving rainforests and Palestinians than in advancing the career aspirations of upper-middle class Brits.
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radar, or anybody else, how many Brit ski schools would this affect?
The 'French' ski schools , i.e ESF, Evoltion 2, 333, Snow Fun etc, have 10 or more qualified instructors for EACH individual ski school to qualify for employing a Staggiere.
How many individual Brit ski schools employ 10 fully qualified instructors to qualify for employing a Staggiere?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stewart My guess would be that on the basis that the brit schools have been established in the major ski areas, all the owners would be interested in becoming training centres if they could. That way they could expand and compete fairly by being able to hire part qualified instructors in the same way ESF do, and have the client base in resort to support the expansion. The current speed-test holding (or exempted  ) instructors who work for those owners might not be best pleased fearing their pay rated might be affected by the influx of BASI 2s and 3s; however if the min-of-10 rule holds firm (but without the racist element) the owners would still have to pay them enough to retain them.
Btw your post implies one stagiere per 10 french-system-fully-qualified moniteurs, this is not how it works (as I know you know), that rule qualifies the school to be a "training centre", which then permits multiple stagieres per full-cert (three I think under ESF rules, meaning that only a quarter of ESF instructors have to be diplomé).
So if the "french-qualified" requirement was found illegal but the min 10 speed-test holders still applied, all the brit schools would try to grow to employ 40 odd instructors, which the majority would achieve at the expense of ESF by then being able to compete on price and having the capacity to take on TO contracts.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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pam w,
| Quote: |
Why don't British ski schools go and start up businesses in Austria, as there seem to be fewer barriers there?
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Actually I understand the requirements to open a permanent ski school in Austria are tougher than France. Most Brits operating there are traveling ski schools not permanently based in a resort.
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| Quote: |
I understand the requirements to open a permanent ski school in Austria are tougher than France
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Ah, that would explain why there seem to be a lot of British ski school in Austria and very few (?none) in Austria. They don't mind having some young, seasonal, "cheap labour" from outside, but the businesses themselves are all locally owned?
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You know it makes sense.
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The BASI system was set up at the top level to meet the requirements of the French system as that is where the money is. There are a couple of additional qualifications to set up a ski school in Austria: I think you also have to be a mountain guide as well and some sort of local tourist qualification. The EU is trying to get the ski instructors to set up common standards but obviously there are vested interests and this will take time. Brit ski schools can bring in their own clientele with them for 2 weeks at a time to fill up hotels. But yes they don't mind bringing in outside cheap labour as the money in Austria is in owning a ski school rather than working as a ski instructor.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
But yes they don't mind bringing in outside cheap labour as the money in Austria is in owning a ski school rather than working as a ski instructor.
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So, on the face of it, the French system, though by no means perfect, is less unfair than most, in that instructors get paid a fair wage (without school "owners" creaming off the profit) and the "protection" which provokes all this high-minded talk of "non tariff barriers" has happily not prevented the establishment of a growing number of British ski schools. They charge higher prices than the French schools but seem to provide, generally speaking, a reliably high quality product. In the big French resorts there is thus plenty of competition and choice; even in our small resort there are two ski schools, an ESF and an ESI, with prices equally low in both.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm not sure it is fair or unfair but it is a different way of doings things with pros and cons. France it is tough to get fully qualified but you can earn a good living. Austria you can get work at a lower level but can't make a decent livng. Switzerland lies somewhere in between. What is unfair is the lies agaisnt France. There is nothing to stop a Brit other than ability getting fully qualified and working there or setting up a ski school just as the locals do.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What are BASS, New Generation, Momentum, SupremeSki, Snoworks and many others if they aren't British ski schools operating in France?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Austria you can get work at a lower level but can't make a decent livng
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But only because the fat cat owners cream off the profits, presumably? Why don't Austrian instructors get together and run a co-operative style ski school, like the French do?
feef, yes, those are indeed British ski schools, operating in France, providing a lot more competition than there is in most ski nations, it seems. But beefing about the French is just a national pastime, isn't it? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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And French instructors I know all have other jobs - high mountain guide, motorbike instructor, builder, farmer, in the case of 4 that I know.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The Austrian ski schools are paying the market rate for lower level instructors given that it is difficult for them to get work in France, Italy and Switzerland. In practice these lower level instructors are generally fine teaching the kids and beginners which form the mass market for ski schools. They will still use higher qualified instructors for higher groups. This is the real debate with France as there are restrictions on using lower level instructors. However, the French system means that it is possible for those Brits with the ability to make a decent career as a ski instructor.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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TTT, pam w, ski schools in France cannot employ sub-ISTDs unless they have 10 ITSDs who have risen through the French system. That is discriminatory, against the spirit of the Single Market and I would place a bet that it will eventually be found to be against the letter of European law too.
I resent the implication that mentioning this is knee-jerk Francophobia.
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Er..."...real debate...are restrictions on using lower level instructors". The Eurotest and Test technique are not discrimatory as is often unfairly claimed as they apply equally to locals and brits. I also think that they have a legitimate place in the training hierarchy for instructors. There is also a legimate argument that those people who can train people through the French system have qualified htreough the french system themselves as they are familiar with the system and requirements. There is afterall nothing to stop a Brit going through the French system. In practice, I do believe it is discrimatory as a BASI ISTD trainer should be as equally qualified to train a ski instructor as a French fully qualified ski instructor. On the other hand I see plenty of Brits discriminate against using local instructors when the local may well have higher skiing and instructing capabilities so it works both ways in practice. As pointed out before in practice France gives Brits the best possibility of making a long term career in the ski industry and there is a lot of incorrect Francophobia in the debate which detract from the legitimate debate.
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| TTT wrote: |
| In practice, I do believe it is discrimatory as a BASI ISTD trainer should be as equally qualified to train a ski instructor as a French fully qualified ski instructor. |
We are in agreement on the main issue then.
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| On the other hand I see plenty of Brits discriminate against using local instructors when the local may well have higher skiing and instructing capabilities so it works both ways in practice. |
I don't believe anti-discrimination law has got around to regulating consumer behaviour anywhere (thank goodness), so this is a red herring.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I resent the implication that mentioning this is knee-jerk Francophobia.
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I didn't imply that; what I said was that on the face of it the French system seemed to be less unfair and restrictive than some of the others and it has produced a higher level of competition and customer choice.
It is not the only imperfect system but it's the only one that is regularly moaned about on this forum.
I would indeed assert that that there is a much greater propensity to moan about "the French" and France on Snowheads than about other nationalities and countries, but that does not imply that every criticism of France is unjustified or Francophobic.
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Stricly legal red herring yes but it does not make the behaviour of many Brits abroad any less reprehensible. You should not expect repect if you don't give it. False accusations and a lack of respect will not help help address legitimate concerns.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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TTT, I find your sweeping generalisations reprehensible and irrelevant.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| TTT wrote: |
| There is nothing to stop a Brit other than ability getting fully qualified and working there or setting up a ski school just as the locals do. |
Have you read the Simon Butler thread which outlines exactly the barriers thrown in front of someone trying to do "just as the locals do"?
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| TTT wrote: |
| Stricly legal red herring yes but it does not make the behaviour of many Brits abroad any less reprehensible. You should not expect repect if you don't give it. False accusations and a lack of respect will not help help address legitimate concerns. |
So respect = paying people to provide you a service which is not appropriate to your needs because they are "better" qualified than those who do meet your needs?
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't see the reason for all the fuss, let alone any petitions?
If you have your BASI 4 you are welcome to come and set up and teach in France.
BASI 4 is easier than the French System and you have an infinite amount of time to pass the exams, in France it's get it done in 3 years or start from scratch -The French also have to pass the eurotest, it's not just for those coming for outside France wanting to teach here.
The fuss over not being able to set up training center where by you can employ instructors without full qualification comes in part from not wanting to play by the same rules. If you've only got your BASI 2 and you got that 10 years ago, you are NOT the same as a French Stagier!
Local NONE ESF French ski schools do employ Brits and others who have their BASI 3 for up to 3 years while they work on their BASI 4 - this is seen as playing by the rules and no fuss is caused.
I do know a good many who are struggling with their BASI 4, some have been just unlucky with injuries and illness at the wrong time of year, BUT a good many others are just not up to scratch technically or have too much love of Beer to reach their goals.
I know many more French instructors who speak good English than British instructors who speak good French, even though they live in France.
Why am I saying all this - I am from the UK originally and I live in France running my own business and trying really hard to be part of the country I live in. I really struggle with Brits moaning and whining about how restrictive things are in France - and most of them don't even live here!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| I would indeed assert that that there is a much greater propensity to moan about "the French" and France on Snowheads than about other nationalities and countries, but that does not imply that every criticism of France is unjustified or Francophobic. |
There's plenty of moaning about the UK and Brits too. People moan about things that affect them. I have never skied once in Austria, so any moaning from me would be highly theoretical. On the other, the situation in France has affected me very directly this year.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| What is unfair is the lies agaisnt France. There is nothing to stop a Brit other than ability getting fully qualified |
The Euro Test discriminates because the vast majority of prospective British candidates whatever their skiing and teaching ability, did not have and had no access to Alpine Racing based coaching when younger. It clearly gives an advantage to Alpine candidates with a race training background which has no relevance at all to making a good teacher. The Euro Test also could be considered age discrimination too - I wonder what would happen if this was actually taken up in court?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Idris wrote: |
| I really struggle with Brits moaning and whining about how restrictive things are in France - and most of them don't even live here! |
Not in the context of ski instructors, but most of the people I hear moaning about how restrictive things are in France are French people! Grass is always greener and all that...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm not for a moment suggesting all Brits lack respect by any means but I have seen many instances where this is the case and it is really is counter-productive to reaching agreements and working together as I have experienced many times. Reaching new legal and regulatory agreements depends very much on effective human interaction. An aggressive stance is not helpful.
I have indeed read the SB thread with interest and I see legimate arguments on both sides. There are many British ISTDs and British ski schools in France so I don't see the discrimination there. Brits and locals both have to pass the Eurotest. Some people seem to think that Brits should be allowed to work there with lower standards than are required by the locals. I have said that Brit ISTD trainers should have the same training status as the locals. However, the economic reality is without any restrictions the standard of instruction would be lower and it would not be worth making a career as a ski instructor.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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...and as if by magic it has been confirmed that there are different regulations for working in different countries but the requirements for Brits working in France are the same as locols working in France.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| TTT wrote: |
| ...and as if by magic it has been confirmed that there are different regulations for working in different countries but the requirements for Brits working in France are the same as locols working in France. |
There is the club instructor situation though, my boss for example is a recognised volunteer instructor with his local ski club. I've no idea if this requires any qualifications but he has confirmed not having the right to pop off and teach whoever whenever for cash. He gets a nice jacket and the right to say he's an instructor though. Not sure why Brits don't do this and demand massive 'gifts/tips' instead of payment, would certainly be great for ski hosts, but the answer is most likely that only French ski clubs count. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| TTT wrote: |
| I'm not for a moment suggesting all Brits lack respect by any means but I have seen many instances where this is the case and it is really is counter-productive to reaching agreements and working together as I have experienced many times. Reaching new legal and regulatory agreements depends very much on effective human interaction. An aggressive stance is not helpful. |
Couldn't agree more. But cooperation cuts both ways, and I am very clear where aggression has been applied in Megève.
| Quote: |
| I have indeed read the SB thread with interest and I see legimate arguments on both sides. There are many British ISTDs and British ski schools in France so I don't see the discrimination there. Brits and locals both have to pass the Eurotest. Some people seem to think that Brits should be allowed to work there with lower standards than are required by the locals. I have said that Brit ISTD trainers should have the same training status as the locals. However, the economic reality is without any restrictions the standard of instruction would be lower and it would not be worth making a career as a ski instructor. |
So really, your stance is one of protectionism: punters should pay more than they otherwise would, to give a certain class of ski instructor the career they think they deserve.
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There are plenty of ISTDs who argue that they have learnt a lot from their Eurotest training and that a speed test of some kind should be included. In practice I know a lot of people whose only perception of whether you are qualified to teach them is whether they are quicker than you or not. The speed test requirement is clear from the start. The UK now has a lot of dry slopes and indoor centres where you can make a start and with a lot of application then people generally do pass the speed test. An age allownace is a legitimate debate.
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BASI as if by magic this afternoon have sent e-mail confirming the qualification for working in France; BASI 4 to work outside a ski school and registered with local system. To work in a ski school must have passed Test Technique and BASI 2 or 3 but everybody knows this and almost everybody accepts it.
Something an ESF mate pointed out that snowboard instructors also have to pass the Eurotest so if you start as a boarder it is almost impossible to be an instructor in France which is really something to moan about!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Something an ESF mate pointed out that snowboard instructors also have to pass the Eurotest so if you start as a boarder it is almost impossible to be an instructor in France which is really something to moan about!
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That's interesting. Maybe it explains why some of the French snowboard instructors I see might be top class skiers but are pretty average boarders.... I had a snowboard lesson from a guy whom I know to be a brilliant ski instructor, and a great chap, but even I, as a beginner (but having the McNab book and DVD) realised he was not really up to it as a snowboard instructor - my son was much better (and cheaper!).
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pam w, You are correct you will never now meet a brilliant young fully qualified French snowboard instructor who is a rubbish skier. Most head to Italy
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