Rope length and training courses

A snowHead

Hi all - quick question on ropes - I have a 50m half rope and plan to cut it into 2 lengths.
What lengths do people recommend - I was thinking a 30m and 20m rather than in half but interested in views.

Also saw a few years ago there was a one day ropework course aimed at skiers - absailing, belaying, crevasse rescue etc - any ideas if one of these is running anywhere still ?

Bit worried I am getting too much kit without the training and practise needed to use it !!
Off to Chamonix on Friday ..... hoping not required !

A snowHead

Most "randonée" or crevasse-rescue ropes are 30m.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Unless your a Russian oligarch, they only need 2m when the going gets tough.......

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PBJ, the ropework day was organised by snowball and was a one-off. It's a day he put together and he arranged for a mountain guide to provide us with the ropework training.

I've not heard of any regular courses aimed at skiers but if you PM snowball he may be able to put you in touch with the guide. Or you could get in touch with the BMC to source a guide if you want to put a day together.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

If you're going to Chamonix surely there will be a surfeit of guides able to show you the ropes? Smile

My ski rope is a 40m half rope. Definitely learn how to use it first, it's not rocket science but not something to improvise in a stressful situation!

You'll need to Register first of course.

Try Chamex

http://www.chamex.com/

I would keep your 50m length for Chamonix and get an 8mm 25 or 30m rope for lighter ski touring use. I also use a 20m / 7mm rope but both a 7mm and 8mm rope are very elastic.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Thanks for all the advice - looking at arranging a specific course for 4 of us at climbing wall in Gloucester topped up with some on snow practice with a guide at weekend.
When you 'only' have 3 weeks on snow a year, prefer to get the basics covered at home and maximise guide use on snow. It's a balance though.

After all it is free · Last edited by After all it is free on Tue 2-04-13 13:15; edited 1 time in total

Hi, PBJ, I just saw this.

Are you, like me, chiefly wanting to use the rope to get down things (plus crevasse rescue?) or do you also want to climb up with it? Climbing back up your own rope is a different thing and you need to learn that, just in case. Often with less steep situations you may just belay the rope and put the rope across your shoulders, or you may need to attach yourself properly and use an Italian hitch etc etc.
You need to make this clear to whoever you get hold of. A wall is mostly used for climbing UP and they also aren't much concerned with conveying how to attach the rope to things etc. Ask about different ways of belaying a rope in a snow situation (using skis etc) - a non skier may not know much about that. I have never made a snow bollard but you need to at least know in theory how they are made.

Crevasse rescue is very specific and needs a couple of small pieces of hardware to make a pulley system.

(my drawing)

Do you have a harness or intend to get one? For very minor rope use this may not be needed but you should certainly consider getting one. Crevasse rescue without one would be very difficult and being let down a rock face without one is painful and more difficult. Also you will need a couple of carabiners. You also need to learn about how to make an attachment to a rope with a prusik (using a thin piece of cord tied in a loop) and you will probably be advised to buy a ropeman (like a prusic it slides up a rope but not (easily) down) and a sling.

A 30m 8mm rope should be fine (or even 7mm). If you are not going to climb up the mountain you don't want a very elastic rope (there are more and less elastic types - one sold as a touring rope is not very elastic since it doesn't need to absorb a fall). Ask your instructor what to ask for (I forget the names of the different rope types). As a belay it is occasionally useful to have a very short off-cut length of rope that you can, for example, tie around a rock and just sacrifice in an emergency - rather than lose your whole rope.

PS The instructor I used did our class South of London (just North of Gatwick). He was OK. Let me know if you want his details.

snowball, This is really useful - thanks.
I have skied off piste quite a lot for the last several years - with guides and without.
I have harness, carabiners, transceiver, shovel, probe etc .... and crampons/axe (not usually taken though).
Regularly ski accessible glaciers - going to Argentiere on Friday - and want to be better equipped.
I just ordered a Petzl crevasse rescue kit - half price at EB - and decided I needed to put the rest of the kit together and learn how to use it. Done some basic climbing as a Scout Leader but want to learn more.
So yes rope is certainly for getting out of danger or going in tricky entrances .... but definitely generally going down .... not up !

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

PBJ, in which case grab this book as it's a pretty neat little reference:

http://www.bmcshop.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=313_202&products_id=5464

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

I would second, hang on to your 50m rope. In my experience when you NEED a rope a full one is what you need. I also have a 40m 7.9mm. I have had two bad experiences with 30m ropes. You need to check what diameter you need for you equipment, most belay devices and cravasse rescue toys have a minimum thickness, the pretz traction is 8mm. Some pro training is a very good idea, if the poo hits the fan the response needs to be on auto pilot. As a mate of mine said, the lesson needs to come before the test.

snow reports

That's an interesting diagram. I don't think I will ever need rope skills but I love reading threads like this - they are very interesting. I've read about prussiks - they are those clever things that only slide in one direction aren't they? What holds the weight of the rope as the slack is taken up following a pull, does that ropeman device grip the cord? It mentions above that it works in a single direction - then it is strong enough to hold the weight of the victim, yes? Also, there is no mechanical advantage like a pulley system is there? It looks like a straight pull so could a lighter person lift a heavier one with that system?

So far I've not needed more than 30m but perhaps I'm not as adventurous as some (and 3/4 of the time I ski with guides). a 50 metre rope is heavy, though, especially if you carry other stuff like skins, crampons, water bottle etc on top of the spade and probe.

You know it makes sense.

Not an alternative to training, but lots of free information on rope and equipment specs and use here.... http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/manuals-instructions-catalogs-brochures.html

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Megamum, that's a z-pulley which gives a 3:1 mechanical advantage the rope is running through a carabiner which is attached to the weighted part of the rope with the prusik cord. You're correct though that the ropeman device blocks the rope going in the other direction. There are all sorts of variations though.

A snowHead

Megamum, Prussic's are a knot, there are several ways of doing it but you wrap a thin loop of cord around a thicker rope. When weighted it grips the rope, when un-weighted it can slide up or down. The Ropeman is a mechanical prussic with a toothed cam, it lets the rope move in one direction but grips it in the other direction. In the system in the diagram there is a 3:1 advantage it can be very hard work lifting someone using this system, plus overcoming the quite considerable friction over the crevasse lip. Using another revolver carabiner and the other end of the rope you could turn it into a 6:1 advantage.

A snowHead

Megamum, loads of different varieties of M.A. systems, one of the most common is the Z-Drag:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-drag

I should probably point out I've never used them for skiing, only for removing things (boats pinned on rocks, trees creating pin hazards, etc) from rivers whilst kayaking. You're right in that pulleys are FAR better than just running a rope through a crab, the friction really adds up - can turn a 3:1 system into something more like 2:1 (in which case you'd be quicker to just set up a 2:1 C-Drag - clip pulley to object, run rope through it, anchor one end of rope, pull on other). They can be VERY effective - last Spring myself and some friends removed this tree that was pinned across a drop we wanted to run (local raft guides had failed to budge it with a 2 tonne mechanical winch!!):

Pinned underwater between drops, pretty big hazard as we were running an intermediate trip!

Shifting it around:

On the way out (no he didn't ride it down!):

A write-up and video of some systems in action, and the amount of force you can generate (nothing to do with me this time):

http://www.flowfree.co.uk/2011/12/mechanical-advantage/

I'm very confident that you'd be able to pull a single person out of a crevasse with these sort of techniques.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You do need to put something on the snow edge of the crevasse or the rope cuts into it and then the victim cannot get up over the edge however much the rescuers pull.

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snowball, that's what the bundle of ski poles is for in your diagram isn't it?

clarky999, I'll take a read thanks Very Happy

Great sequence of photos though. It must have been a wet job getting the rope onto the submerged hazard in the first place!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Megamum, cheers, none of them taken by me though. Was a bit awkward at times, with drysuits the getting wet wasn't an issue (and the pool isn't very deep, which is why the tree was an issue), the bigger problem was avoiding any risk of getting trapped/crushed if it moved, so required a lot of care.

You'll need to Register first of course.

snowball, Unless concussed or injured it is generally better that the fallen climber climbs out of the crevasse themselves, which is why you always have the prussic loop(s) attached to the climbing rope in advance. As you say there is a lot more to this topic than can be covered in an internet discussion.

Back to the OP, though I don't do much off piste skiing I do use a 30m randonée rope for glacier walking in the summer. I am a real weed and like to save weight as much as possible. The 20kN strength of a climbing rope is simply not needed in these circumstances (actually, why is the strength of a rope given in kN, should it not be given in Joules?) so why risk getting excessively tired on a route carrying unnecessary load. Since I started climbing many years ago I have been amazed by how cheep rope has become. So, PBJ, don't chop your climbing rope in half but buy the correct rope for the job.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

clarky999, I bet! There is a lot of weight there, even before it becomes waterlogged.

After all it is free

Interesting series of very helpful comments - thanks.
My rope is 50m and 8.5mm and will definitely work with the Petzl Crevasse Kit ..... as mentioned above, I am concerned about weight/bulk and that was a consideration in maybe shortening it to 30m.
I know how the prussics work and how to gain mechanical advantage .... the Petzl kit has a traction pulley and jammer which does the job well.

Thanks for the advice.

Help!!

Rope length and training courses

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