 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi folks
We're looking at booking our family ski holiday for the first week in January NEXT season (so probably 4th or 5th Jan 2014).
One of the options is what looks like a pretty good value chalet in Zermatt (we can also do Val D'Isere, Meribel or Val Thorens for similar cost, but we did the 3 Valleys last year so somewhere new might be nice; also, I'm pretty obsessed with the Matterhorn so it'd be pretty cool to ski on/near it!).
A couple of questions:
1) Having done some research, seems like we're 2 mins walk or so from the Sunnegga train thing. This is an underground train up to the slopes, right? Is it reasonably quick and does this offer suitable access to (say) the Gornergrat side? The main reason I ask is we have a very timid intermediate skier who doesn't really like skiing much above a blue run (perhaps an easy red on a good day), and many of the blues seem to be on the Gornergrat side.
2) Is our location really bad for getting up to the Matterhorn/Cervinia side? We'll probably aim to do at least one day in Italy, but will it take us ages to get a bus/walk to the Gondolas on that side of town? I've read bad things about the lift queues there - is it a real problem if you don't get over before they open? Also - is it terribly common for them to shut the lifts in the middle of the day due to weather conditions and maroon you in Italy? How do you get back if so?
3) It's going to be really cold in January, right? Are the lifts reasonably fast/modern? I recall feeling like I was getting frost bite on the two (fairly slow) lifts up to the top of Orelle on the far side of the 3 Valleys this Feb and would probably prefer not to repeat the experience!
4) How do the slope gradings compare to, say, French resorts? Slightly easier I guess?
Also, I was wondering about trying some itineraires. I notice that most of the blacks on the Zermatt side are now unpisted. We've got a few mildly confident black-run skiers in our group, but definitely no experts. I did the itineraire in Engelberg this year (the unpisted valley down from the titlis glacier, yellow run on the map, quite mogully when I did it) and I'd say that's basically the limit of my abilities. Are there any easier (i.e. less steep) unpisted runs in Zermatt?
5) We're half-board people, but what are the best value places for lunch stops? Is it like Courchevel in that you basically can't stop anywhere on the mountain unless you want to pay through the nose?
Thanks in advance for any super-awesome replies!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hello Felonius_Monk, I've been going to Zermatt since the 1960s ... so here's some advice:
1. Zermatt is not ideal for timid skiers. The run from Blauherd to Sunnegga is fine for timid intermediates, but connecting to Gornergrat from that side would not be easy for that grade of skier. You wouldn't be that far from the cog railway station if you're near the Sunnegga base station. The skiing up near Riffelberg is fine for blue runs.
2. You would have a 15-20 minute walk approx., or the ski bus. Early Jan can be extremely cold on the glacier, though. Not generally a good time for a timid skier to be up there, and you'd have to be lucky with weather etc. to do Italy - it's a long way over and down that side, though it's an epic red run (Ventina).
3. Yes, quite possibly. Lifts are generally modern in Zermatt, and there are gondolas.
4. The Stockhorn/Triftji area - where much off-piste/itineraire is located - doesn't open in Jan. You should be able to find plenty of powder to play in around Rothorn, Schwarzsee, Garten etc.
5. I won't go into lunch stops, except to say that you won't be ripped off in the French way.
My advice? Save up Zermatt for well into the spring, even mid-April. It's much much better there with long sunny days. That's when I ski it. In early Jan, I'd ski a lower Austrian resort like Kitzbuhel, Alpbach, Saalbach etc. Much better to have plenty of trees for cover in Jan. Or maybe the Dolomites - gorgeous, and huge terrain.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd agree with most of what CG says (and you don't see that on this forum very much !). With the exception of the below.
2. Even at Christmas the queues were manageable so I'd imagine early Jan to be fairly quiet.
5. Unfortunately with the strength of the swiss franc everything is fairly expensive when translated into sterling. We we were there over Christmas and didn't stop in any of the posh lunch places you will find recommened on this forum (although we were sorely tempted). We found a lunch that would generally consist of something like spag bol * 2 + 1 side salad + tea + orangina was between 60 and 80 CHF so far from cheap if you multiply that by 6
finally have you considered Cervinia which is sort of doing Zermatt on the cheap ? Of course you don't get the iconic view of the Matterhorn that Zermatt does but the skiing is easier and - weather permitting - you can always pop over to Zermatt when the timid skier has gobe their confidence up
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Felonius_Monk, one other point. If you're forced to ski early Jan - and don't get me wrong, it can be wonderful - don't pre-book. It's low season, and you'll get many many offers of cheap packages in the run-up to Christmas. So see where the early season snow is lying thickest and best.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've been to Zermatt a couple of times, the last at half term 2009. I would always favour staying within walking distance of the Matterhorn Express lift. From there it's easy to ski that area and Gornegrat or to get over to Cervinia. Getting across to these from the Sunegga side takes far more time. I found getting to the lift as it opened beat any queues. There are ski buses of course also.
I went the previous year in early January and it was pretty quiet although Russian New Year does make things busier.
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Felonius_Monk, I'm a bit surprised you have found a 'good value chalet in Zermatt'.
Zermatt is one of my favourite places but I think you should only think about it if at least one of these apply:
1. Money is no object- the entire party will think nothing of paying CHF50-60 for lunch each (for a good lunch with wine etc)
2. You think nothing of taking sandwiches and walking quite long distances around town carrying skis
3. Group members are happy to ski in different ares -suitable for different abilities and meet up in the evening.
4. For January Skiing in -20 to -25C plus wind chill is fine if it gets you to some amazing powder and a massive vertical.
5. Everyone really really likes skiing
6 No-one whinges about money
From your post I think it might be OK or it might not be. It is one of the worlds best ski resorts in almost every respect but- it ain't ski in ski out- it ain't cheap.
Oh for early Jan - as above never ever book anywhere in advance- this is ultra low season and you can get proper bargains!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Felonius_Monk, Have a good read of some of these posts and give it some thought. They are lists of why Zermat is "less than ideal" (a bit self censorship there) but start or end by saying "I love Zermatt". Obviously the place has something but I couldn't work out what it was. A couple of answers for you. There are a lot of pistes marked red that would be blue most places in France or green in Val D'Isere. Be prepared to spend an hour futzing around on Thomas the Tank Engine before you get to anything skiable of a morning. The lift system was one step up from primitive when I was there three or four years ago. Enormous cable cars disgorging onto narrow tracks just don't do it for me. It's quite likely that there will be no snow in the town which might or might not detract from the experience for you. And look out for those electric taxis.
On the plus side, it is in the mountains and will definitely have snow. The view of the Matterhorn is admittedly spectacular. And if you should want to buy a Rolex you will have loads of choice.
Do yourself a favour and go to Val D'Isere
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You already have a lot of good advice - just a couple more thoughts in answer to you questions:-
1. The Sunnegga express funicular offers probably the quickest access onto the mountain, and to a range of mostly red, with some blue runs, and a beginner area known as the Wolli Park. Some of the best mountain restaurants can also be found in the hamlet of Findeln, accessed from this side. However, although there are good connections now between the Sunnegga/Rothorn side and the slopes on Gornergrat, if your intermediate really is timid, they won't find this straightforward. However, a short walk away from the Sunnegga funicular is the Gornergrat train station which, although slower, has now got some pretty quick trains with fewer stops (check the timetable) that take you up to the blue slopes you have been talking about. Again, depending on how timid the person is, you might want to get off at Riffelberg where there is a fast chair accessing the slopes, rather than the final stop at Gornergrat itself, which involves coming down a fairly narrow, though pretty short path to join the rest of the slopes. Those who don't like such paths often find that bit off-putting.
2. Personally, we always stay near the Sunnegga funicular and although it is at the other end of the village from the Matterhorn Express, is not actually that far away. Admittedly I am too lazy to walk it, but there are buses and a group sharing a taxi works out not too badly (unless you are expected to pay for the whole group!). At the time of year you suggest, the queues won't be too bad, at least we have never found them so, the largest group at that time of year tend to be the Russians, due to Russian New Year, and in my experience they tend to take a more leisurely approach to their skiing, not generally being desperate to be the first to the lifts! The Matterhorn Express takes about 25 minutes in a bubble to get up to Trockener Steg where there is wide glacier skiing very suitable for an intermediate. To access Cervinia you have to either take the cable car up to Klein Matterhorn from Trockener Steg, there can be queues at this point, or two T-Bars to get over. These are a bit of a pain but very doable, unless it is a particularly cold day, when it certainly isn't that much fun! So far as closing down the connection is concerned, this will happen often if there are high winds. Usually though they are closed down so you can't even get over lowering the chances of getting stuck on the wrong side. I have heard stories of people getting stuck, but more often because they didn't pay attention to the closing times for the lifts and left it too late to return. that would be a bad thing to do as it is an extremely long taxi trip back, which is also very expensive. Just be vigilant and keep an eye on the time, especially at that time of year.
3. Certainly early January can obviously be very cold, however, in the fickle way of the mountains, you can have some lovely sunny days also. We sat in early January this year outside at the restaurant at Schwarzsee having lunch and the owner told us in the same period the year before they had been closed down for three days due to terrible weather..obviously you need to be prepared for cold temperatures however, especially on the Klein Matterhorn side. There has been a lot of investment in lifts over recent years and many are bubbles or fast chairs, some with heated seats so it is usually bearable.
4. See the advice above in relation to the most famous areas such as Stockhorn and Triftji - not likely to be open. However Paradies was open that week this year and some of the yellows below Schwarzsee. Really depends on how good an early season they have had.
5. There is no getting away from it, the lunch places are expensive. There are larger self service places but in truth as a family of five we don't find those to be substantially cheaper than many of the mountain huts and there is no doubt the quality of food, setting and so on in the well known restaurants is absolutely fantastic. If you are on a half board basis you probably won't want huge lunches and there is no law against just having soup or salad or whatever in these places, there are definitely worth it for the experience. If you want specific recommendations for sit down lunches, happy to let you know, but they are all to be honest pretty good quality.
Finally, as the photos above show, there is also heli skiing if thats your thing - fantastic pictures, by the way!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Only 2 of the piccies are heliskiing- the 2 middle ones.
I think the strap line on Zermatt is something like this:
"Fantastic skiing, superlative mountain scenery, outstanding restaurants and service; suitable for either the world's keenest skiers or hyper-rich."
I think I was a bit wishywashy in the first post. If you have someone in your party who is a 'timid intermediate' and cost is an issue then don't go to Zermatt. It will be a disappointment. I daren't go for longer than a long weekend as (although I really love skiing)as if I stayed any longer I'd just run out of money and start crying.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Great area, expensive. Not for timid skiers although saying that most reds are not overly difficult.
Potentially very cold. 3rd week of Jan this year. Stockhorn was open later part of the weekdue to good snow but for the first four days the cable car to klien matterhorn was closed. This meant that the very cold slow tbar to Italy was the only option. Not suitable for kids when its -20. Did I mention it was cold?
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| ed123 wrote: |
| 1. Money is no object- the entire party will think nothing of paying CHF50-60 for lunch each (for a good lunch with wine etc) ! |
I'd like to know where you're getting that deal 'cos none of the nice places will be anywhere as cheap as that
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You know it makes sense.
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Good advice guys. I think it sounds like a good option for us except perhaps for the coldness. Meribel was another alternative, similar price for the chalet, and, having been to Courch last year, somewhere I'd be more than happy to go in Jan. I think the group leader is still keen on Zermatt, though. It's my wife's 30th so it being a bit more expensive isn't a big issue, but I think the coldness factor might've put me off (I think I actually feel the cold more than the average person, in my fingers and toes, and frequently get cold and miserable on ski lifts anywhere).
The reason we're booking now is that we're a group of 6 and ideally wanted a 6-person catered chalet to ourselves; I believe the better ones are often all booked up if you wait until xmas.
The timid intermediate is arguably less of an issue because most of our alternatives (Val D, St Anton) are pretty tough resorts as well; maybe only Meribel is a more timid-friendly option. We're sorting it this weekend so I'll try to push in the direction of Meribel, and maybe take the missus to Zermatt in April if we can afford it...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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most of our alternatives (Val D, St Anton) are pretty tough resorts as well; maybe only Meribel is a more timid-friendly option.
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I don't know Zermatt or St anton but Val D'Isere is absolutely suitable for a timid intermediate, provided they are happy to ride down in a gondola at the end of the day. I don't know Meribel well but I have found skiing down to "rond point" at the end of the day to be fairly scary, with icy and desperately crowded pistes. And I am not remotely timid.
Of the places mentioned, I'd say Val D'Isere is most suitable for a timid intermediate - and it has some exceptionally fine ski schools.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wot Pam said! I would go a little further and say that Tignes is even better though I admit the town is prettier in Val D'Isere. The tranquil valley between the two could have been designed for timid intermediates.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bump. I've decided to sneak off to Cervinia for a cheeky few late days and wonder if it's worth the extra to ski Zermatt side given
a) can see Matterhorn perfectly well from Italian side,
b) lunch probably better on Italian side,
c) not at all arsed about pistes
d) happy with a bit of solo offpiste if conditions are apt but obviously won't be hanging out risky lines
e) weather "might" close down Plateau Rosa link back (how often does this happen?)
Can you upgrade Cervinia pass by the day?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The Matterhorn is supposed to be more spectacular from the Swiss side, not sure, we had our back to it skiing down to Zermatt when we went over!
I think you might be ok this time of year with the link closing. I've only been for a week, we had a day where we couldn't ski over the Zermatt side otherwise ok.
It's nice to be able to ski from the top of the Klein Matterhorn all the way down to Cervinia or Valtournenche, but we always found ourselves clock watching when going over there worried about the lifts closing (they closed at 2.45pm from Trockener Steg when were there).
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I've only ever done it the other way around, stayed in Zermatt and visited Cervinia. The slopes in Zermatt are more interesting, in Cervinia they tend to be perfectly pisted motorways. Toilets are far better in Switzerland too  I'd judge the weather when I arrive I think.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Other question is how long does it take to get to Stockhorn/Triftji from Plateau Rosa - looks like you have to go all the way down, (assume a straight piste blast) then uplift again? Similar time in opposite direction?
Erm Maybe a dumb question looks like its bus/train/back bottom around therefore a total no go. Why do they not have a Gondola or Cable car from Furi to Riffelberg to actually link the area? Or can you scoot from Furi to the mid train station, which might be a bit of a drag in spring snow?
Sorry for the dumbass questions but only ever been to Zermatt village in the summer.
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fatbob, It's about 4 years since I last went but I vaguely remember about 30 minutes from Kleine Matterhorn bottom lift right up to the top if you didn't have to wait around. I know one day we had coffee right down in Valtournenche at 10 after catching the first lift at 8.30. I don't know the other way I'm afraid.
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Claude B, Ah never trust on online lift map that's large enough to see. Obviously ski-zermatt.com not to be trusted
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob, It's a reasonably recent addition, within the last 5 years I think.
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Fatbob coming from Plateau Rosa you ski down to Furi, then catch the Riffelberg Express to, unsurprisingly, Riffelberg, take the chair up to Gifthittli, turn left and ski down to Gant, cable car to Hohtalli, then across to the Triftji/Stockhorn sector from there. On the assumption you skied pretty much straight down, and allowing for time in the bubble, the chair and the cable car, I would think you might be up to an hour to get across (maybe a little quicker if you hit the cable car just at the right time, etc). Stopping to admire the view and so on would make it a bit longer, obviously.
If you went no further than that, then your route back would be to get down to the same cable car at Gant, up to Hohtalli, turn left when you come out, follow the path to Gornergrat, ski down to Gornergrat, Riffelberg then Furi, pick up the same bubble for the short lift up to the cable car station at Furi then either Matterhorn express or cable car back up to Trockener Steg. From there either 2 T bars or cable car to Klein Matterhorn to access the link to Cervinia (assuming that's where you want to get back to!). That will all take quite a bit of time, I would think although we stay on the Zermatt side and I have never had to time myself to get back over to Italy.
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