 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all
After 10 years of skiing super short and stiff slalom skis, I recently bought a set of Sir Francis Bacon skis to learn how to play off piste and to play with wider skis.
I am currently in Val Thorens and conditions are fairly terrible. The resort has had so much wind it was closed for one and a half days. The relevance of this is that the snow is super hard (not ice) just incredibly hard.
Normally I would be fine carving this stuff as my old skis' edges would grip into a turn and I would be away. At the moment I can't get anything from my edges at all! I am having to work incredibly hard to stop sliding down steeper sections of pistes as otherwise the edges are just sliding out.
The other frightening problem I have encountered for the first time is the skis wobbling underfoot and catching little edges on the long flats.
Any tips on adapting my style to these longer, centre mounted skis (with rocker, so they ski pretty short) would be hugely appreciated.
The main questions in have are:
1) do I need to wax and sharpen the edge new skis? I have done nothing to them since they were delivered.
2) because of the early rise/rocker is the lack of edge grip on hard snow something I have to just accept? I am really uncomfortable letting rip on anything because I think I wouldhave a hard time turning fast if rrequired.
3) if a ski is centre mounted does anything change in how much I lean forward or how I position my weight?
I can't think of anything else right now but as I said above, tips hugely appreciated!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snax001, reality check - despite what many people will try and tell you, the 'edging capability' (for want of a better turn of phrase) of a wider ski relative to a slalom or GS ski is far reduced. There is a reason why people who need lots of grip ski on skinnier skis... Think about the mechanics of where forces are going & how things line up or don't... a wide ski is constantly working to try & get itself back off edge again.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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snax001, do you have your slalom skis with you? Switching to those sounds like it might be more suitable for the conditions.
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Skiing with wider skis it can help to keep the knees apart. I.E inner ski on a turn or upper ski on a traverse, this will give more edge control on the upper or inner ski. Think about moving the inner knee out a bit as you initiate the turn. Good luck!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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snax001, I'm on Rossi S7s (fat, with rocker) and on hardpack I have to really angle the outside knee inwards to get a good edge bite. Actually, both knees are angled uphill quite acutely (as knees go). This is when the rocker edge engages too. I've never skied on slalom skis, so don't know if what I do is any different to what you would do on slalom skis?
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snax001, I have just had a few weeks on wider skis and had a similar problem with the skis wobbling underfoot on firm snow and ice.. Bigger edge angles seem to help and really pressuring the ski
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Yup... Wider skis do struggle to keep edging on real scraped hard pack although I use mine for everything. I'd take the edges to 87 degrees as this does help and don't try to over force the turns. Just get used to suddenly shooting sideways every now and then.
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More effort and skiing more on top of them. If you're skiing with the same feel you had with the slalom skis you won't be edging them nearly as much. The skis themselves have a decent sidecut, aren't that wide and aren't crazy rockered. How long are they? It benefits in a rockered ski for it to be quite a bit longer than you think you need especially on hardpack.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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meh, +1 feet apart and ski them modern style.
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| snax001 wrote: |
Normally I would be fine carving this stuff as my old skis' edges would grip into a turn and I would be away. At the moment I can't get anything from my edges at all! I am having to work incredibly hard to stop sliding down steeper sections of pistes as otherwise the edges are just sliding out. |
You mention carving but you do not have to carve.
On steep hard packed pistes just turn and let the skis slide down the hill even if you think you are moving quite quickly. It's a perfectly acceptable technique which can be used with narrower and wider skis. I think some people instructors included, have sometimes become a bit obsessed with carving in recent years however it is not the only way.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| I'd take the edges to 87 degrees as this does help |
I've left the S7s with a 1 degree side edge angle. All my previous skis (which were marginally narrower) were 3 degrees (or 87). I haven't noticed the difference, to be honest.
| Scarpa wrote: |
| Just get used to suddenly shooting sideways every now and then. |
I thought it was just me 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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snax001, center mounting isn't ideal for what you are doing by the sounds either, think how far back your slalom skis are mounted, do you spend most of your time in the park?
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| snax001 wrote: |
1) do I need to wax and sharpen the edge new skis? I have done nothing to them since they were delivered.
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I would wax the skis but I wouldn't bother sharpening the edges.
| snax001 wrote: |
2) because of the early rise/rocker is the lack of edge grip on hard snow something I have to just accept? I am really uncomfortable letting rip on anything because I think I wouldhave a hard time turning fast if rrequired.
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Yes to an extent but try new things and adapt your technique. With a bit of practise you will be able to get a lot more performance from the skis than you currently are getting.
Re catching edges: parallel skis and equal edge angles. Potentially wider stance.
Don't get too far forward and consequently overload the front of the ski. Centre mounted skis ski well when you balance over the sweet spot ie the mid point of your boot.
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You know it makes sense.
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Dump the Bacon, buy and S7 never ask another question again!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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snax001, what is your weight?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks guys; this is the third time I have tried to post a reply!
All your responses have been incredibly useful. I will try to implement them tomorrow!
I think I have a huge learning curve ahead. Wider legs, lots more knee and get a better weight position. Today I only carved on softer snow but hopefully I will get some better edge feel tomorrow. My key concern with finding this edge is because it obviously damn importsnt when doing tight turns down a steep piste: compressing and getting the edge engaged seem critical!
The skis are not an obvious purchase for my skillset but this is exactly why I got them. I want to try off piste more and I loved the centrl weight distribution when jumping.
I am viewing this as a welcome opportunity to learn rather than worrying about it not being easy. I just needed confirmation it was the workman and not the tools!
Keep the tips coming; i have tried to post two mega replies referencing each response but internet has flaked out twice!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I am 6'2 and 100kg on 184cm bacons. I skied 168 supersport 6*s
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snax001 wrote: |
Hi all
After 10 years of skiing super short and stiff slalom skis, I recently bought a set of Sir Francis Bacon skis to learn how to play off piste and to play with wider skis.
I am currently in Val Thorens and conditions are fairly terrible. The resort has had so much wind it was closed for one and a half days. The relevance of this is that the snow is super hard (not ice) just incredibly hard.
Normally I would be fine carving this stuff as my old skis' edges would grip into a turn and I would be away. At the moment I can't get anything from my edges at all! I am having to work incredibly hard to stop sliding down steeper sections of pistes as otherwise the edges are just sliding out.
The other frightening problem I have encountered for the first time is the skis wobbling underfoot and catching little edges on the long flats.
Any tips on adapting my style to these longer, centre mounted skis (with rocker, so they ski pretty short) would be hugely appreciated.
The main questions in have are:
1) do I need to wax and sharpen the edge new skis? I have done nothing to them since they were delivered.
2) because of the early rise/rocker is the lack of edge grip on hard snow something I have to just accept? I am really uncomfortable letting rip on anything because I think I wouldhave a hard time turning fast if rrequired.
3) if a ski is centre mounted does anything change in how much I lean forward or how I position my weight?
I can't think of anything else right now but as I said above, tips hugely appreciated! |
Fat skis aren't good for hard pack. As rob said if you have them, go back to your slaloms. If you don't have them, you'll need to concentrate on early edge (toppling/dive down hill, start turns with ankles and feel platform) and getting the new edges at your shovels into the snow high in the turn. Also remember that it's easier to fall onto the inside ski on fat skis, so focus on keeping a predominance of weight on outside ski, while still getting inside knee into the turn and feeling your little toe edge carve. Helps to counter to enhance angulation, rather than trying to stay stacked and relying on lateral angulation.
On long flats with fats skis, as your feet are wider apart, it's easy to end up on inside edges, ploughing a bit, or more on one ski than the other (which causes the wobbling). Concentrate on having skis flat, parallel, equal weighted, or learn to carve them on flats
1) No need to edge new skis. Skis run better if waxed but frankly you can get away without waxing skis at all if you're happy with the way they run unwaxed. Might not last as long if the bases "burn" but again I'm not convinced it's a real-world issue for recreational skiers unless you ski a heck of a lot or are aiming to keep your skis for a very long time. Most of my own skis have not been regularly waxed even though I regularly wax other skis in the household with different temperature waxes.
2) Rocker doesn't as such cause lack of edge grip on hard snow. Most rockered skis are relatively soft and that's more of an issue. A long edge gives more grip but as you say, rockered skis ski short on hardpack so less edge effectively. Fat skis are also more difficult to edge as offpisteskiing has already said.
That said, perfectly possible in most situations to produce satisfyingly thin clean arc-to-arc lines carving on fats, just needs an adjustment if you have sound technique.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Why not rent some slalom skis? Enjoy them then use your fats when the snow gets softer!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Why are you skiing on a piste?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Cynic wrote: |
| Why are you skiing on a piste? |
Good point, get off the groomed stuff, even in cut up old mank they should be more in their element compared to bulletproof pistes!
Off piste isn't always about light fluffy and deep powder, indeed this is the exception rather than the norm .........
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| primoz wrote: |
| snax001 wrote: |
| I can't think of anything else right now but as I said above, tips hugely appreciated! |
You should be looking into completely different direction for solution  110mm under foot skis are just not made for groomers... even if whole lot of British skiers think otherwise. If you want to ski groomers, and even icy one, then use appropriate gear... just as you need appropriate gear if you want to ski 1m of powder. You can't ski (at least not nicely and without much effort) 1m powder with race GS skis, and you can't ski on ice with surfboard attached to your feet. Sure you don't look so fancy with skinny SL or GS skis on your feet, but it sure does feel better skiing on ice. So now it's up to you to decide what do you really want... ski normally, or think that you look cool with 110mm skis. Because reality is, that you don't look cool but ridiculous with such skis on groomers... just as you look and feel ridiculous with race GS skis in 1m of powder |
This.
They should be manageable on hardpacked groomers (and fun on good conditions groomers - soft/cut-up/slushy), but they will never give the performance of a real piste ski. Either get off the piste (just 'cos there's no powder doesn't mean you have to be onpiste, though bacons are probably a bit soft for crud/'bad' snow too), or get on the right skis for what you're doing. Deliberately spending all day on fat skis on icey groomers is a bit stupid tbh, especially when you have a pair of slalom skis...
At you're size they're also a bit small, especially if centre-mounted (which seems a weird decision, unles you spend a lot of time in the park).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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snax001, thinking about this, I'd bet someone with the right knowledge could find some pretty decent snow in Trois Vallees even with the wind, have you considered hiring an instructor, and explaining you want a lesson in skiing off piste on wider skis. Also discuss whether your happy to hike/boot pack to get to decent snow..
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I usually take a pair of carving type skis and a pair of fats with me on trips. If is going to be mainly on piste with the Mrs or our mates, then use the carvers.
If you think you'll be more off piste; and even the stuff at the side of the piste counts; then its the fats.
But you have to change your style a bit dependent on the ski; much bigger angles are needed on the fats, they will slide more than the carvers and do everthing else in the turn more slowly anyway; so perhaps practice your pivot turns rather than fighting the skis all the time.
And centre mounted doesn't help unless you're off into the park.
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You know it makes sense.
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snax001,
As others have said - use the best tool for the job.
Don't ski on "their" hard piste, get them to come to you, on your territory.
The trick on wide skis is to ski the crud at the side of the piste so well that the people on race skis think "that looks easy/fun, I'm having some of that" (this will improve your offpiste skiing). Most put in a couple of turns and then ski back onto the piste with their tails inbetween their legs. Some go down quicker than Monica Lewinsky. This is great fun until one of them who can really ski puts in better turns than you on a pair of race skis. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| snax001 wrote: |
The skis are not an obvious purchase for my skillset but this is exactly why I got them. I want to try off piste more and I loved the centrl weight distribution when jumping.
I am viewing this as a welcome opportunity to learn rather than worrying about it not being easy. I just needed confirmation it was the workman and not the tools!
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That's a great attitude. It's a pretty big change going from what you were skiing to what you are using now. It will take a bit of time but ultimately you will progress a lot more than if you instantly revert back to using your piste skis.
[ I'd actually say that if you can learn to ski well, on piste, with wider skis then you will be a much better skier when skiing off-piste with the wider skis. However, when you use your piste skis again you will appreciate them a lot more when skiing on piste! ]
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Elston wrote: |
| I'd actually say that if you can learn to ski well, on piste, with wider skis then you will be a much better skier when skiing off-piste with the wider skis. However, when you use your piste skis again you will appreciate them a lot more when skiing on piste! |
I remember many moons ago some instructors on Epicski saying that using wide skis on piste was bad for technique, was never really sure why (but as they had a language all of their and the instruction threads could go on for half a lifetime I didn't dare join the conversation).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DB, I could understand how wider skis could hinder your getting on edge/carving skills.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kitenski wrote: |
| DB, I could understand how wider skis could hinder your getting on edge/carving skills..... |
Or make you stop trying after a while.
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DB, if you only use wide skis and/or your skiing fundamentals are not solid then I would say that wide skis are pretty bad for technique.
I think that if you can already ski to a reasonably decent standard then spending a few days (on piste) getting used to some new wide skis is beneficial and when you actually go off-piste you will ski all the better for that experience.
[ IMV if you cannot ski to a semi-decent standard then you shouldn't* be using wide skis in the first place. Just for the simple reason that you would progress faster with more suitable equipment. ]
*However, if you want to use wide skis because they are fun then great!!! And at the end of the day it really is all about having fun.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Years ago, used to be lots of people around on race skis who didn't have good basic technique. These days, these sorts of people ski fat skis. I don't see many people around on race skis who aren't fairly good skiers. Piste skis are not of course automatically race skis.
Elston, you are right of course but there was a time you'd've been hung out to dry for that last post here on sH...I'm sure that chapter of the sH mafia are still about somewhere...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wow what a day!
The tips posted here helped enormously. I changed to a more modern stance (for what I understand it, less looking down the fall line, more facing the way the skis are pointed), I widened my legs and pushed my inner knee outwards and up the slope (much like snowboarding on your heel edge). The edges were there!
The replies here helped me have confidence that I could go searching for my edges and not worry about wiping out!
I have started to put weight through my arch area rather than the balls of my feet; that hekped with big carves but is quite hard to maintain as you are not just dumping your weight forward. This helped too.
The skis were hella fun. I really enjoyed seeing what they could do.
So a huge thank you for all the help and advice provided. It was definitely a case of the workman rather than the tools!
To answer a few questions;
- those are the longest SFBs you can get, so I couldn't get more ski for my weight.
- I am not on my slalom skis because they are at home as I wanted to learn and play on my new skis.
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Ps; the only bad thing about today was french idiots slicing up my skis in lift queues. They are so rude and pushy!
A snowboarder also lost control and ploughed into me on piste today.
Finally, there were a tonne of stones on the top runs so the bases of my skis got some chunks clipped out.
Grrr. Just cosmetic damage but bloody infuriating on such pretty skis!
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I recently skied with a guy who was doing knee deep fresh snow through forest bumps and jumps on race SLs faster than most good skiers go on a piste.
OK, he was an actual racer
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I also tried to ski the Schladming runs just after the WC comps on my fats. They were hard, hence the shooting sideways 
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snax001, wot Cynic said
All skis work the same, but some skis are better suited to different conditions. Your Supersports work best using the edge of the ski. Your SFBs on the base - so go find somewhere to play on the SFB's where it's soft -- you'll soon get used to them. You will also find them manageable on piste with a bit of use.
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FAQ
