 Poster: A snowHead
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I have just posted a new blog on the Ski Guiding judgement.
Ski guiding belongs in earlier age of British eccentricity, time to move on to new things?
http://grangedalice.blogspot.fr/
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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araird, thank you. Very well argued and written.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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araird, agree with Pedantica. Some very interesting points.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Once again a well written article and correct of course. Thank you
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Didn't agree with your conclusion, but I enjoyed the article. Not sure why I've not spotted your blog before because it's extremely interesting for anyone who skis in Les arcs on a regular basis - thanks very much, will be a more frequent visitor to your blog. Is there an RSS feed for your blog so I can subscribe to it?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| araird wrote: |
| Ski guiding belongs in earlier age of British eccentricity, time to move on to new things? |
Yes, but dealing with herd creatures who don't even have the wit to simply change country or try something called a hotel. A good article.
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Here we go again.
So what's the difference between social skiing and ski-guiding then ? In my experience, virtually nothing. In fact the majority of people being "guided", which is incidentally portrayed in this article in a very perjorative manner, partake of the facility offered mainly if not solely for social reasons. I've probably been on half a dozen ski trips with TOs that offer such a service and the people who have done it have been, without exception, bright and well-adjusted youngsters completely different to those painted here.
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| Quote: |
So what's the difference between social skiing and ski-guiding then ? In my experience, virtually nothing.
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The difference is being paid to do it or not being paid to do it.
Forgive my perjorative portrayal of ski guides, I can't say I'm not trying to be provocative,and of course you're right, on the whole...
Last edited by After all it is free  on Tue 5-03-13 14:14; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, there's a thing on the right hand side of the page where you can 'follow' by putting in your email address. Let me know if it doesn't work and I'll do it manually.
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araird, it says "The feed does not have subscriptions by email enabled". I'll PM you my email address.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This might be rather naive, but my understanding is that the problem is ski hosts being unqualified? So what's to stop TOs getting them qualified? It happened in my day, I did BASI 4 (as it was called then) in order to be able to do ski guiding as well as being a resort manager. When and why did this stop happening?
Good piece by the way.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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BASI 4 not recognised as a professional ski teaching/leading qualification in France, unfortunately. There's no doubt the whole system needs reform, but before the usual ESF bashing starts up I don't think it's actually their fault....
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araird, OK fair enough. BASI 4 was allowed in my day, but this was well over 20 years ago. I don't even think BASI 4 exists any more...
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You know it makes sense.
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Nicely written piece - and FWIW, I agree with your conclusion. The practice is clearly illegal in France and that should be an end to it.
However, I do wonder whether this whole 'is it legal or not' argument has rumbled on so long, at least in part, due to the inflexibility of the French language...I give you 'ours blanc' 
"A lot of the debate at the court centred around the definition of guiding ('accompagnateur'). To an English speaker, the word 'accompagnateur' suggests 'someone who accompanies' (or 'goes along with') but does not infer 'instructs' and certainly not 'takes responsibility for'.
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| I don't think anyone is saying the informal or social skiing (e.g. by a chalet owner) is illegal or undesirable |
But the, eg, chalet owner is being paid to provide certain services - bed & board plus, maybe equipment hire. Shirley  , if he chooses to offer to ski with his guests (an 'accompagnateur'?), he is de facto being paid for that as well...no?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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queen bodecia TOs cannot get their staff qualified because there is no recognised 'hosting/guiding' qualification.
Nothing to stop someone setting one up and getting it approved of course.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think you can do the 'Equivalence' (Eurotest) as an extra to BASI level 4 and then you could teach in France (but it's v. hard!)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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araird, I think when QB did BASI 4, it was what would now be known as level 1.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hells Bells, I'm not sure how it works now. When I did BASI 4 it took five days (I already had a first aid certificate). I wasn't able to be an instructor after this, I think there are all sorts of shadow teaching and further courses to be done to get that far, but it was sufficient for ski guiding and basic mountain safety.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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queen bodecia, I think it is fairly similar for the entry level now. You can't instruct until you've completed shadowing hours and then can only instruct on artificial snow or dry slope.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hells Bells, fair enough. I actually did do some shadow teaching on a dry slope, but nowhere near the required amount of hours.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
But the, eg, chalet owner is being paid to provide certain services - bed & board plus, maybe equipment hire. Shirley , if he chooses to offer to ski with his guests (an 'accompagnateur'?), he is de facto being paid for that as well...no?
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Perhaps this will be the next thing to be tested in the courts. In my (bad) experience of legal process in France you are usually assumed to be in the wrong unless you can prove otherwise...
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queen bodecia TOs cannot get their staff qualified because there is no recognised 'hosting/guiding' qualification.
Nothing to stop someone setting one up and getting it approved of course.
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Yes, but approval would take years and nowadays also have to be promulgated at European level, I think. The French legal system definitely isn't going to cave in over this, ever. That's why Le Ski's appeal against the judgement is a big waste of time and money, IMHO.
Incidentally, I understand that as the case was heard at the Court of Assizes (rather than 'Instance') the judgement makes 'case law', ie. precedent by which any subsequent prosecutions would be considered. This means in practice that if anyone reports another tour operator doing the same thing to, say, the police, they can be prosecuted without a lengthy trial if the facts were proven. (I'm no french lawyer, so sorry if my interpretation isn't perfect...)
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| Negotiation, persuasion and understanding |
That cuts both ways, of course.
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Yes, but approval would take years and nowadays also have to be promulgated at European level, I think.
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Which was my next point. Even if the ESF set up a course would it be approved quickly?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| araird wrote: |
| I think you can do the 'Equivalence' (Eurotest) as an extra to BASI level 4 and then you could teach in France (but it's v. hard!) |
it is only possible to work in France as a ski instructor if you hold the BASI Level 4 qualification, complete with Eurotest.
It is also possible to work in France as a stagière (trainee) for a maximum of three years if you hold a minimum BASI Level 2 qualification (or national equivalent) and also pass the Test Technique, a timed slalom test
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araird, well done, you managed to say in one article what has taken 1440 posts over 37 pages to say
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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araird, good article 
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