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canting?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
As I understand it, there are 3 main types of canting designed to get the ski flat:

-in boot

-sole planing

-wedges under the binding



Actually, I guess there's cuff canting as well but I wasn't sure whether that was designed to centre/off centre the leg in the boot or make the ski flat.



A custom footbed should make pressure even across the foot and help flatten the ski but if you need canting after that, isn't the in boot or binding option the easiest to do? If you add the canting afterwards, doesn't this change how pressure is applied across the foot?
For example, some people are recommended to have shoe inserts that tilt the foot to one side, a custom moulded footbed won't do that so I guess it would need some further adjustment to tilt the foot more but doesn't that change the pressure on the bottom of the foot?
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What's canting?
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Mine were done as inserts inside my boot under my custom footbed. They made an immediate and noticeable difference to my skiing
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I use the in boot method.
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protosaurus wrote:
What's canting?


Adjusting boots and/or bindings to accommodate bow legs or knock knees (nearly everyone has one or the other to some degree) so that the skis naturally lie flat on the snow.

http://skiing.about.com/od/skigear/f/bootcanting.htm
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Is under foot or ski binding canting better than adjusting the cuff canting?
I've seen some cuff canting adjustments where people just use carpet or other material between the liner and shell but doesn't this just put extra pressure on the calf?
Also doesn't an underfoot cant change the ankle angle and put it in a non natural angle?
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Cuff alignment is not canting.
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altis wrote:
Cuff alignment is not canting.


cuff alignment changes stance doesn't it?
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GordonFreeman wrote:
altis wrote:
Cuff alignment is not canting.


cuff alignment changes stance doesn't it?

No. Any changes your make to the cuffs should be to fit to your natural alignment. Would you want your boots putting so much lateral pressure on your lower legs that they change your natural alignment?

What makes you think that you need to change your alignment?
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rob@rar wrote:
GordonFreeman wrote:
altis wrote:
Cuff alignment is not canting.


cuff alignment changes stance doesn't it?

No. Any changes your make to the cuffs should be to fit to your natural alignment. Would you want your boots putting so much lateral pressure on your lower legs that they change your natural alignment?

What makes you think that you need to change your alignment?


Don't think I do...am just interested in the procedures.
Have a look at the pics particularly at the bottom of this page: http://www.skibootalignment.com/page9.html
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GordonFreeman, difficult to read that page on a phone so I'm not sure if they are using the cuff alignment to accommodate the natural biomechanics of the skier, or trying to force the skier into a different lower leg alignment in order to achieve a flat-running ski. If they are trying to force a change in alignment I don't agree with it.

If you think your natural alignment makes it difficult for your skis to run flat or for your ankle joint to flex easily then I'd recommend going to see someone like Solutions 4 Feet when they have an alignment day with Andi McCann.
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Or for the impecunious as most seem on here if you knock knees full in, if bow legged full out, suggest run on flat fast piste for test.
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rob@rar, ...agree....I tend to set cant in a very neutral position and leave alone...if you have REALLY weird stance then certainly get expert advice. If you are an on-the-edge top-of-the-circuit FIS participant, or a day-in day-out on the slopes skier then fine tune cant...for everyone else it's simply better to get better than obsess about everything.
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GordonFreeman, not really sure how good that method is, I messed a bit in the past with cuff adjustment, trying to get rid of knee pain that developed on holiday, while I managed to cure the pain with a quick very non scientific tweak and turns felt more symmetrical as a result, I created another pain to the outside of my foot. By binning my poorly made footbeds, new footbeds were made and in boot balance shims fitted, the cuff tweaks I had made earlier were put back to their original positions and I now ski without knee or foot pain, and skis track very nicely.

Start at the footbeds...and adjust everything else from there...
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Shells only, bare foot, measure.
Footbeds made, in shells only, barefoot on the footbeds, measure.
Complete boot, socked foot, measure, adjust cuff.
Once at this point, whatever "off" 0° you are shim, plane whatever you want, just go ski flat!
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I've got knock knees, so I suspect I could benefit from adjusting the canting on my boots. Is this an easy thing to do or should I see my boot fitter?
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justatheory, you could try putting shims under your footbeds; or go and see a fitter.#

I found out I was knock kneed, I never new before i had a pair fitted properly.
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See a BF with some tools.......

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CH2O, totally agree with this. Get the boots fitted correctly first. For most, a supportive footbed will correct overly pronated feet (i.e. knock kneedness). If you're still not completely flat, you can make adjustments underneath the boot or to the binding - this is by far the best way to do it in my experience, as corrections in the boot will just cause your feet to react, and not necessarily the way you intend.

I think valais2 is right though - being truly flat on the ski isn't for everyone. Being planted firmly on your inside edges is actually a good thing for most - it's stable. But if you are racing or similar, then the different methods mentioned can all be effective. It depends on the skier, and you should consider the whole picture - the boot and the ski together.
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If a footbed is simply just a mould of your foot then how does it help realign the ankles/knees?
I understand how it can help spread pressure but usually people with foot / knee problems have to get orthotics and those are especially designed to angle / support the foot more. For example, I know someone who has one that tilts their foot outwards more in shoes, a custom moulded footbed isn't going to do that is it?
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GordonFreeman, As I understand it, if you pronate a lot this can lead to the arch collapsing before adequate pressure can be applied in the turn. Especially once your feet start to tire (if you've ever experienced sharp arch pain when skiing, you'll know all about this). The extra support a moulded footbed will give prevents this collapsing, which means you can maintain a neutral stance even when you're tired. It's not realigning your foot so much as it's helping you to maintain alignment under the extra forces put on it through skiing. If you've got a very unusual stance though - like your friend - you might need to go further than this.
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GordonFreeman, Making a footbed will, depending on the person making them, prevent pronation, correct STJ Misalignment for skiing, change the forefoot and rear foot relationship to that of STJ neutral. All of these things will severley change alignment, tibial rotation, knee tracking, hip alignment in relation to the knee. Without this, chatting about 1/2° here and there is pointless, as without the foot, unless 100% stable will change and thus trying to find alignment with a mobile platform underneath is practiacally impossible.
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CH2O wrote:
GordonFreeman, Making a footbed will, depending on the person making them, prevent pronation, correct STJ Misalignment for skiing, change the forefoot and rear foot relationship to that of STJ neutral. All of these things will severley change alignment, tibial rotation, knee tracking, hip alignment in relation to the knee. Without this, chatting about 1/2° here and there is pointless, as without the foot, unless 100% stable will change and thus trying to find alignment with a mobile platform underneath is practiacally impossible.


let's say you have a foot with not much arch, ie it's flat causing pronation.
Just standing in a footmould is going to take a flat impression of your foot and still not give any arch support?

the bootfitter would actually have to add a cant to change this or maybe make an extra lift under the arch wouldn't they (something most fitters don't seem to offer)?
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GordonFreeman, my arches collapse when standing, but are there when no weight on them (sat down) my footbeds were made mainly while sat down! I've had the run run of the mill (stood up ones) made in the past, results were as you say a lovely mould of a pronated foot, the fitter needs to be very careful when making these weight bearing ones I'm told.
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GordonFreeman, If you make a non weight bearing cast in STN then that's it, if you're not there, not one person has been in my experience, then a footbed will address it.
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CH2O wrote:
GordonFreeman, If you make a non weight bearing cast in STN then that's it, if you're not there, not one person has been in my experience, then a footbed will address it.


STN?
AFAIK, most places offer the heated footbed mould while you stand on it and put weight on it.
So, anyone with over pronation would need to have it made by a podiatrist?
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GordonFreeman wrote:
CH2O wrote:
GordonFreeman, If you make a non weight bearing cast in STN then that's it, if you're not there, not one person has been in my experience, then a footbed will address it.


STN?
AFAIK, most places offer the heated footbed mould while you stand on it and put weight on it.
So, anyone with over pronation would need to have it made by a podiatrist?


Yep podiatrist....good call!
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Yep, go see a good podiatrist, one with good eyes and hands, not one with a great memory for all the text books, albeit one with e good memory, hands and eyes is best.
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Food for thought, 1° shims underfoot would have what effect on soft snow? Unless the surface is 100% resistant, we could argue canting is lost.
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That said our process here has yelded 100% success, so there is something to be said for it, I just wish we had enough time to put every client though it, also the cerebral process often cheats the readings. The client must be relaxed with their brains switched off where possible.
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CH2O wrote:
with their brains switched off where possible.


Explains why mine feel great! Toofy Grin
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gatecrasher, Switched of, not permanently disconnected! Toofy Grin
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CH2O, Embarassed wink
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We cant 2% of boots sold, and have plenty of happy skiers without. I feel a little "sharp" not putting everyone on the machine, but as stated, it's often a can of worms that make's life more.........."complex"???
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CH2O wrote:
Yep, go see a good podiatrist, one with good eyes and hands, not one with a great memory for all the text books, albeit one with e good memory, hands and eyes is best.


Shouldn't a bootfitter have the same knowledge though?
Be interesting to see what the charges are for a posiatrist doing orthotics...
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welove2ski wrote:


I think valais2 is right though - being truly flat on the ski isn't for everyone. Being planted firmly on your inside edges is actually a good thing for most - it's stable. But if you are racing or similar, then the different methods mentioned can all be effective. It depends on the skier, and you should consider the whole picture - the boot and the ski together.


I'd not want to be on both inside edges at the same time. That would feel horrid IMHO.
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GordonFreeman wrote:


Shouldn't a bootfitter have the same knowledge though?
Be interesting to see what the charges are for a posiatrist doing orthotics...


Mine worked out about £20-30 more, but considering all the other pairs were about as useful as flipflops in terms of support, delaminated after a year...to say the little extra was worth it, is an understatement.
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kitenski wrote:
welove2ski wrote:


I think valais2 is right though - being truly flat on the ski isn't for everyone. Being planted firmly on your inside edges is actually a good thing for most - it's stable. But if you are racing or similar, then the different methods mentioned can all be effective. It depends on the skier, and you should consider the whole picture - the boot and the ski together.


I'd not want to be on both inside edges at the same time. That would feel horrid IMHO.


It also makes getting the edges on the inside ski into the snow more difficult.
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GordonFreeman wrote:
......AFAIK, most places offer the heated footbed mould while you stand on it and put weight on it....

Most but not ALL places. A top fitter will be able to make them by a number of methods. CEM for example makes footbeds either fully unweighted (by vaccuum) or semi weighted or fully weighted to suit the users requirements. Top fitters like CEM/CH20 are often professionally qualified in biomechanics/podriatry so you don't need to see seperate specialists who often don't understand the skiing requirements.

He will also, as part of his fitting process, be checking you for any alignment issues & if necessary (at an additional cost) Andi McMann will do the analysis etc. The solution to lateral problems is usually internal shims in the boot under the liner or planing the boot sole, but in extreme cases canting shims are required under the bindings but this will give you a left & right ski. Delta/forward lean adjustments (usually requiring less delta = raising the toes) can be made on the boots (if the toe lugs are solid to enable them to be routed down to the correct DIN thickness after lifter space are attached to the sole) or with shims under the bindings for which they usually send the customers to me to sort out.

Am I right in recalling that you've actually visited CEM in the past & then didn't take his advice?
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[quote="spyderjon"]
GordonFreeman wrote:


Am I right in that you've actually visited CEM in the past & then didn't take his advice?


Not quite...I went to see him but he didn't have anything in stock that would fit and I lived quite a drive away from him so I didn't go back. I probably should have though Wink - Profeet is nearer me now but they seem a bit pricey.

Actually, what I'm discussing in this post is for the missus who has over pronating feet and a physio recommended her insoles with arch support, which is why I was asking why the moulds (standing on / heated ones) don't really help...
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