 Poster: A snowHead
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Just to pass along some experience I've had over the past few years.
I certainly know many of you drive down to the Alps and are no stranger to good quality snow tyres and their efficacy and more and more people in England are fiolling their Scottish and Welsh cousins and at least sticking a set on their driven wheels ie front, if it's a front wheel drive car, and obvioulsy all four if it's a 4x4 or rear wheel drive.
HOWEVER, please be aware that most of you will have one locking nut on your car and these are usually in the form of a splined socket, and in your wheel change kit there's a splined adapter.
Yesterday I went out to just pop the last of my winter tyres on, as one was in the spare hole in the boot and the splined adpater could not remove the bolt.
Eventually I rang Audi and they kindly offered to remove it for me, and the incredibly helpful workshop manager at Bath Audi suggested I use a stock wheel bolt. So in the worst of yesterday evening's snow, I drove the 8 miles (in the opposite direction from my house I might add) down the road that leads south out of Bath, and not only did they remove the locking nuts, replace them with standards but put the two snow tyre clad wheels on for me in the proper position, as one was on the back from last season, and only charged me the cost of the 4 bolts, grand total 14.20GBP. The drive back however took me nearly four hours, due mainly to the fact that:
Not enough people use snow tyres
Even those that have 4WD/AWD mostly don't have a clue how to use it
4WD/AWD with summer tyres is in the same category as a chocolate teapot
The general standard of driving in the 18-30 age bracket is ladie's front bottoming appalling (self censorship there:))
The moral? That locking wheel nut that we think is there to stop lowlifes stealing our precious alloy wheels can very easily leave you stuck at the side of the road with no way of removing your wheel, and Kwik Fit ATs etc do not carry them, nor do they AA, RAC or Green Flag as theer are around 40 different patterns for Audis alone.
So if you have a young family, travel large distances and do have a less than perfect locking wheel nut system, get rid.
My new "Stuff to have on a winter journey"
Compact shovel
Snow tyres
Baxters bacon and lentil soup
Tartan blankets
12 coats (trust me, I've narrowed it down from 23
16 hexagonal head wheel nuts
Stout boots
Stupid hat (a trilby or a Fedora will get you nowehere)
Find out where the exhaust manifold is so you know where to warm your soup
Get em off and replace em
Snow tyres I've used so far
Michelin Alpin PA2 - These are what I have on the front at the moment, pretty decent, very positive grip in fresh snow, slush, not the best on packed snow/ice
Continental Winter Contact - Very reliable seem to be able to cope with most UK snow conditions
Pirelli Sottozero - for my Audi A4 1.9TDI the best so far, great on all snow and ice, and wear very well. Before this set of Michelin Alpins I'd run a set of part worn Sottozeros for two and a half years, all year round, bout 20k miles and no hassles even in what passes as summer in the UK
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 23-01-13 16:28; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I stopped bothering with those locking wheel nuts yonks ago - you're right, they can be an absolute pain.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ratae Corieltauvorum, All those tyres cost a packet; try Finnish Nokians next time, and you will have change left over for some more coats. Trust me the Finns know more about winter tyres than Germans ( It`s always Mercs and Beemers causing most of the trouble on snow and ice) and Italians ! I am on my 3rd season Nokian WR G2s on an awd ( awd wears tyres much faster than front wheel drive) and they will just do a 4th season. I`m off to Bath now to get myself some alloys 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm perfickly happy with my 4 Vredestein snowtracs, which cost around £65 each IIRC. No need to spend money on AWD or 4WD unless you just like autogadgetry, or genuinely need off-road capability.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ratae Corieltauvorum,
Couple of points, firstly they"re Winter Tyres not Snow Tyres, there's a big difference and secondly and more importantly you're advocating just fitting one set of Winter Tyres just to the driving axle in a FWD car, that is positively dangerous. You must fit 4 Winter Tyres, not mix with Summer Tyres on the non driven axle.
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cstreat, I have the Nokians on my scooby i nthe 150 mph rated version, fantastic tyres all year round as I only do a fairly low milage. I'd buy them again.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
Ratae Corieltauvorum,
Couple of points, firstly they"re Winter Tyres not Snow Tyres, there's a big difference and secondly and more importantly you're advocating just fitting one set of Winter Tyres just to the driving axle in a FWD car, that is positively dangerous. You must fit 4 Winter Tyres, not mix with Summer Tyres on the non driven axle. |
Actually the Sottozero and Alpins are winter tyres but the Alpins follow the design for true snow tires. True snow tires have a smaller footprint than winter tires, and their use is dependant on situation. Landrovers have been using true snow tires for years in the UK
Winter tyres are just about the compound, ie pliability at winter temperatures, snow tyres are about material, tread pattern, and surface contact. They are different tyres.
And on a front wheel drive car snow or winters are just fine on the driven wheels, ask a large proportion of people who live and drive round the Cairngorms. Rear wheel drive cars the other hand need all four to be swapped out as the driven wheels at the rear can "overload" the abilities of the front tyres. Ideally it's always better to use all winters or snows but on a front wheel drive 2WD, two winters or snows are better than all "summer" tyres and there is no such thing as summer tyres anyway.
As for dangerous I'm insure where you got your info from, but it sound like either a bloke on the bus or the manager of your local Kwik Fit;)
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pam w, Even Vredsteins for an Audi A4 are more expensive than Nokians; but Alpins and Continental WC`s are premium, expensive tyres, which was really my point. I think you may have a much smaller car than Ratae Corieltauvorum, at £65 a corner.Spyderman, Hear ,hear.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I'm perfickly happy with my 4 Vredestein snowtracs, which cost around £65 each IIRC. No need to spend money on AWD or 4WD unless you just like autogadgetry, or genuinely need off-road capability. |
Indeed your Vredesteins Snotracs are very distinct creatures to the Vred Wintracs. My buddy runs Snotracs on steel wheels on his Audi Allroad, and that is very win win:)
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| Ratae Corieltauvorum wrote: |
| Spyderman wrote: |
Ratae Corieltauvorum,
Couple of points, firstly they"re Winter Tyres not Snow Tyres, there's a big difference and secondly and more importantly you're advocating just fitting one set of Winter Tyres just to the driving axle in a FWD car, that is positively dangerous. You must fit 4 Winter Tyres, not mix with Summer Tyres on the non driven axle. |
Actually the Sottozero and Alpins are winter tyres but the Alpins follow the design for true snow tires. True snow tires have a smaller footprint than winter tires, and their use is dependant on situation. Landrovers have been using true snow tires for years in the UK
Winter tyres are just about the compound, ie pliability at winter temperatures, snow tyres are about material, tread pattern, and surface contact. They are different tyres.
And on a front wheel drive car snow or winters are just fine on the driven wheels, ask a large proportion of people who live and drive round the Cairngorms. Rear wheel drive cars the other hand need all four to be swapped out as the driven wheels at the rear can "overload" the abilities of the front tyres. Ideally it's always better to use all winters or snows but on a front wheel drive 2WD, two winters or snows are better than all "summer" tyres and there is no such thing as summer tyres anyway.
As for dangerous I'm insure where you got your info from, but it sound like either a bloke on the bus or the manager of your local Kwik Fit;) |
Sorry, but what you've written is on the whole cobblers. I'll answer properly once I have more time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| cstreat wrote: |
| Ratae Corieltauvorum, All those tyres cost a packet; try Finnish Nokians next time, and you will have change left over for some more coats. Trust me the Finns know more about winter tyres than Germans ( It`s always Mercs and Beemers causing most of the trouble on snow and ice) and Italians ! I am on my 3rd season Nokian WR G2s on an awd ( awd wears tyres much faster than front wheel drive) and they will just do a 4th season. I`m off to Bath now to get myself some alloys |
I only ever buy part worns these days, simply can't afford anything else for the past 3-4 years, but I almost did gi for Nokians this time. I'll take your advice next time, but the Chinese and Japanese know a thing or two about snow tyres too, which if you ever go to Hokkaido in January you'll soon find out;)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[quote="Spyderman"]
| Ratae Corieltauvorum wrote: |
Sorry, but what you've written is on the whole cobblers. I'll answer properly once I have more time. |
Save your time breath and keyboard, although oddly enough sipes were first used by?
Yes, cobblers:)
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| cstreat wrote: |
| I`m off to Bath now to get myself some alloys |
Bring em back when you've powder coated them:)
Car has 99k and I don't look after the outside of my cars very well:-|
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You know it makes sense.
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Spyderman, +1
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
And on a front wheel drive car snow or winters are just fine on the driven wheels, ask a large proportion of people who live and drive round the Cairngorms.
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Apart from in France where its illegal.
Can we all go back to the 'We know about winter tyres thread' where there is a lot more common sense and less vitriol'
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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+1 on the locking nut, I have a heavy duty 4x4 with AT tyres on thats been over and through some remarkable terrain and replaced the locking nut the day I got it - it's hard enough work to change out one of those wheels without having to fiddle/battle with the locking nut
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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barry, I fitted locking nuts to my Landy as soon as I fitted 37" Fedima Sirocco Extreme Tyres on Wolf Rims, way too many pikies around nicking them. I'd rather suffer the inconvenience of a locking nut than find it on bricks. Mind you they wouldn't be the easiest wheels to nick, they weigh about 60 kg each and a normal trolley jack isn't high enough to lift the Landy.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Spyderman, the pikeys these days would turn their noses up at my wagon. The wheels are a bug to change - heavy and practically welded to the rim/bolts. I've almost stripped the locking nut in the past when things were a bit seized so I'm happier without. I would probably rethink for something new and shiny
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I'm genuinely confused (except for the bit about the wheel nuts). My Skoda has 4 x winter tyres which have lots and lots of sipes and which make mince of snow and its high ground clearance gets it over the drifts that the Audis scraped their floor pans on. But the thread says that only snow tyres and not winter tyres have sipes whereas I thought that real snow tyres had spikes ? And apparently only 2 x snow tyres are needed in the Cairngorms where I need 4 x winter tyres. So do the people who drive 2 wheeled monster trucks and old landy defenders up and down the Glenmore road all day long laughing at the dumb tourists all have stud muffins and pull wheelies in Aviemore's Tesco car park ? Or is it a different kind of snow ?
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^ or are you confused by the concept of locking nuts on a skoda?  (soz!)
"Snow tyres" have the facility to fit spikes, making them actually "ice tyres". Why you would ever want to fit and remove spikes is beyond me though, even in conditions where they'd help
A good future tyre for the skoda (is it a yeti?) would be a General Grabber AT. All the advantages of an all-terrain without the super-aggressive thread depth of some, are very hard wearing year round and ride/noise intrusion is not noticeable unless you're pounding the motorway. Unstoppable in a Scottish winter, in fact unstoppable full stop - I've been axle deep in wet heavy mud and could simply ease out from a standstill
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Better economy than you might think though for sure not great for your mileage and what you're used to
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Scarpa, Snap x 2 Scoobys
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| barry wrote: |
^ or are you confused by the concept of locking nuts on a skoda? (soz!)
"Snow tyres" have the facility to fit spikes, making them actually "ice tyres". Why you would ever want to fit and remove spikes is beyond me though, even in conditions where they'd help
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When I went Finland in the 80s and 90s nearly all cars were using studded tyres in the snow and ice.
When I went last December nearly every car had studless snow tyres, mainly Nokians and one model in particular that was like a Sri Lankan family name;)
EDIT: Just looked up their range and it's the "Hakkapeliitta". The Audi Quattros outside Zero Point in Levi were all belting about like.. we would in summer with sports cars, around the snow and ice at the foot of the slope. I've just checked the price and they don't come in very cheap:shock:
The only vehicle I saw with studded tyres was a huge highline Ford Transit, with twin rear axles, raised suspension that belonged to the snowmobile company in Levi, which they used to go out on the snowmobile trails to recover crashed or disabled snow mobiles
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| moffatross wrote: |
| But the thread says that only snow tyres and not winter tyres have sipes whereas I thought that real snow tyres had spikes ? And apparently only 2 x snow tyres are needed in the Cairngorms where I need 4 x winter tyres. So do the people who drive 2 wheeled monster trucks and old landy defenders up and down the Glenmore road all day long laughing at the dumb tourists all have stud muffins and pull wheelies in Aviemore's Tesco car park ? Or is it a different kind of snow ? |
From this reply I can clearly understand how you would get confused;)
From 1988-1992 I spent a lot of time up the north east coast of Scotland in either a MkII Scirocco or a flipping horrible Fiat Uno 900 doing fieldwork on the estuarys and mudflats, around the Cromarty and Dornoch Firths and the Ythan estuary. For fun, I used to fish or fo for a spin around the Cairngorms and climb a bit, I never had snow or winter tyres and always knew where I could and couldn't get or shouldn't go.
I often visit and am in constant touch with the fieldworkers who still do this run and carry this work on the post glacial Scottish beaches and sea level change work, and nearly all drive small front wheel drive cars, and all have the same experience as me. A lot of people around that area who drive small front wheel drive cars and who don't have a lot of spare cash, but have enough need to get out for a variety of reasons find that on their small FWD cars two snow/winter tyres are a great help and a better option than 4 standard compound/tread tyres.
I'm expressing opinions, as I'm yet unaware of any empirical data to show otherwise but for me.....and yes I've seen the YouTubes, but neither they nor Wikipedia count as anything approaching empirical, as doesn't T*p G**r.
1. Two snow/winter tyres (sipes and semantics apart) on the front driven wheels is better, safer and way more manageable than all four standard compound/tread tyres
2. Anybody who does not know the difference in how to drive a 4WD, RWD or FWD really shouldn't be driving in this weather
3. Yes, with snow/winters on the front, if you try and drive like you would in July on a dry road your a f**king idiot anyway and will probably die no matter what rubber you have on your wheels
4. If you do drive a FWD car with snow/winters on the back you can still get the back to step out, and if it does you do exactly the same as you would in any oversteer situation, steer into it and I had to do that once on Tues evening after returning from the Audi dealership, on the lovely wide open industrial estate where they live these days, but that was entirely for fun, and twice this morning while my head was focussed on my 11 and 5 year old arguing in the back and I lost my concentration.
5. In a FWD car with 4 winter/snow tyres on try driving round a sharp left or right hander and you'll find the back will still step out as the front wheels are pointing in the proposed direction of travel, while the rear wheels (unsteered) are trying to go straight ahead, and are actually under side load or as Fat Clarkson would say G force, and they will slip and still require correction through the steering wheel and drivers ability to pull them back and get the grip back.
No, I wouldn't send my wife out in her A2 without all four winters/snows, but she actually doesn't have the confidence to drive in this weather, so thats academic. But I'm happy to use my head when I do drive and to be honest it helps me to remain focussed behind the wheel, and not let my tyres do part of the work that my concentration SHOULD be doing in order to drive safely and to accommodate other road users.
Also in a dead straight line I can still brake better than I could ever hope to with all standard compound/tread tyres.
Caveat Emptor: The above only represent my opinions and experience. YMMV
I would never advocate that an inexperienced driver do anything other than stay at home.
If you drive a RWD you NEED all snow/winters IF you are capable of driving in snow and ice
If you drive a 4WD.......well......I'll not comment, the one's in black Disco4s should never drive again, while Defender drivers on the whole seem to have some sort of cop on.
Yes I drive an Audi, bought brand new back in 2002, my first ever new car, still have it, it looks like poo-poo, 99884 when I parked about 20mins ago outside the office.
No I can't afford to blow full retail price on brand new tyres, I buy part worns, from reputable sellers, both economically and environmentally sensible, and as an ex-motorcyclist I used to put great store on my rubber, both compound, tread and shape. I've found over the years, cars are a lot less fussy. I never travel on motorways, I'm agoraphobic and barely leave the city limits of Bath, which for those of you who know the City, know it is 80% hill and 20% sorta flat, and standard tread/compound tyres generally mean you simply don't use your car. I do a job where people rely on me being at my desk at work on top of one of Bath's Downs, so I really need to be able to get round if the roads are passable.
Oh, and I rarely resort to making personal comments about other people I don't really know, apart from people in other cars;)
I'll close
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You know it makes sense.
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[quote="Ratae Corieltauvorum"]
| Spyderman wrote: |
Ratae Corieltauvorum,
Couple of points, firstly they"re Winter Tyres not Snow Tyres, there's a big difference and secondly and more importantly you're advocating just fitting one set of Winter Tyres just to the driving axle in a FWD car, that is positively dangerous. You must fit 4 Winter Tyres, not mix with Summer Tyres on the non driven axle. |
| Ratae Corieltauvorum wrote: |
the Sottozero and Alpins are winter tyres but the Alpins follow the design for true snow tires. True snow tires have a smaller footprint than winter tires, and their use is dependant on situation.
Winter tyres are just about the compound, ie pliability at winter temperatures, snow tyres are about material, tread pattern, and surface contact. They are different tyres. |
You refer in your OP to "Snow Tyres" not "Winter Tyres" which is why I raised the point. Winter Tyres are not "Just about the compound" they also apart from having a high Silica content which allows them to remain pliable under 7C, have a tread pattern specific to winter use, include sipes in the tread, have larger voids between the tread blocks and lose their effectiveness once worn to below 4mm.
Snow Tyres are exactly that, Snow Tyres, they're designed for use on snow, they tend to have much squarer tread blocks with large voids between the blocks, can be studded or un-studded. Studded tyres being illegal in the UK of course. Due to the tread design they tend to squirm severely if used on tarmac affecting handling especially under braking. Their wear rate if used on tarmac is also very high. Snow Tyres are only really suitable for use in Nordic countries where driving on ice/snow covered roads is the norm rather than the occasional.
| Ratae Corieltauvorum wrote: |
| Landrovers have been using true snow tires for years in the UK |
That is absolute rubbish, most Land Rovers Defenders are fitted with All Terrain Tyres, certainly as OEM equipment, For owners that use their Land Rovers off-road Mud Terrain tyres are usually retro fitted. I use Extreme Mud Terrain Tyres on my Land Rover as I use mine mainly for Challenge Events off-road, I also have a set of Pirelli Ice & Snow Winter Tyres for generally rescuing stuck cars in the snow. I've only ever seen Defenders fitted with Winter Tyres in Italy, never seen another one in the UK. Even buying Winter Tyres for a Defender in the UK is difficult. Buying Snow Tyres for one, well it'd be easier to find Rocking-horse Shite. I'd be pleased for you to tell me where all of these Land Rovers with Snow Tyres are? I might buy a set for myself.
| Ratae Corieltauvorum wrote: |
on a front wheel drive car snow or winters are just fine on the driven wheels, ask a large proportion of people who live and drive round the Cairngorms. Rear wheel drive cars the other hand need all four to be swapped out as the driven wheels at the rear can "overload" the abilities of the front tyres. Ideally it's always better to use all winters or snows but on a front wheel drive 2WD, two winters or snows are better than all "summer" tyres and there is no such thing as summer tyres anyway.
As for dangerous I'm insure where you got your info from, but it sound like either a bloke on the bus or the manager of your local Kwik Fit;) |
Mixing Winter and Summer Tyres is dangerous full stop. You might do it, but you're seriously compromising the vehicles handling. Just like it's always advisable to fit new tyres to the rear axle on a FWD car, so as not to create oversteer characteristics in a FWD car. Fitting of Winter Tyres on the front axle of a FWD car for use in winter conditions would increase traction at the front wheels, but the traction at the rear wheels would remain poor. This would have the effect of the rear wheels trying to overtake the front under cornering and braking, which is dangerous. Insurance companies are liable not to honour any claims as OEM guidelines are not being followed. The rear overtaking the front is Oversteer, not Understeer as you've stated elsewhere.
You state that there's no such thing as "Summer Tyres" The commonly used terms for tyres by all Manufacturers are.
Summer Tyres - Designed for highway use above 7C
Winter Tyres - Designed for highway use below 7C
Snow Tyres - Designed for use on snow/ice covered roads
All Season Tyres - A hybrid between Summer & Winter tyres which aren't as good as either in their specific use.
All Terrain Tyres - 50% on road, 50% off-road use.
Mud Terrain Tyres - 80% off-road, 20% on road use.
There is unlimited data to support what I've said, only your own personal experience to support yours. Because you've done something for years and got away with it doesn't make it right or safe.
I can't remember the last time I've been on a bus and I've never been to a Kwik-Fit.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ratae Corieltauvorum, I think Spyderman, has said it all with regard to types of tyres, but also, I would find it very hard to take tyre advice from someone who advocates buying secondhand tyres! Is there such a thing as
of part worns? I've certainly never heard of one.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I retire my Vredesteins from use out here in the snow long before their tread gets anywhere near the legal UK limit.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have been driving around in a 4x4 that is on loan to me, since November, so one return trip to the Alps and out daily in the snow here. The tyres on it are fairly close to the replacement line but I have not had any problems at all.
I therefore conclude: It's not the tyres that make the difference but the driver
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
I have been driving around in a 4x4 that is on loan to me, since November, so one return trip to the Alps and out daily in the snow here. The tyres on it are fairly close to the replacement line but I have not had any problems at all.
I therefore conclude: It's not the tyres that make the difference but the driver |
That accounts for nearly every wheeled vehicle. I knew fellow dispatch riders riding on cotton who could still leave most people standing, although when I rode two wheels I was completely anal about tyre profiles and age of the rubber.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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pam w, I've got Vredestien Wintrac 4 Extreme on my Subaru, I find them really good. I'm also pretty impressed with the Nokian WR A3 on my Honda, between the 2 I'd say the Nokian edge it in the snow, but the Wintrac on wet or dry roads. Very hard to compare though as one's a FWD saloon and the other 4WD SUV. I'd be happy fitting either.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| I have been driving around in a 4x4 that is on loan to me, since November, |
Did the dealer hear you we're going to attempt to drive an ML to the snowy Alps and they gave you a Land Rover instead? 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
Ratae Corieltauvorum,
Couple of points, firstly they"re Winter Tyres not Snow Tyres, there's a big difference and secondly and more importantly you're advocating just fitting one set of Winter Tyres just to the driving axle in a FWD car, that is positively dangerous. You must fit 4 Winter Tyres, not mix with Summer Tyres on the non driven axle. |
| Ratae Corieltauvorum wrote: |
the Sottozero and Alpins are winter tyres but the Alpins follow the design for true snow tires. True snow tires have a smaller footprint than winter tires, and their use is dependant on situation.
Winter tyres are just about the compound, ie pliability at winter temperatures, snow tyres are about material, tread pattern, and surface contact. They are different tyres.
You refer in your OP to "Snow Tyres" not "Winter Tyres" which is why I raised the point. Winter Tyres are not "Just about the compound" they also apart from having a high Silica content which allows them to remain pliable under 7C, have a tread pattern specific to winter use, include sipes in the tread, have larger voids between the tread blocks and lose their effectiveness once worn to below 4mm.
Snow Tyres are exactly that, Snow Tyres, they're designed for use on snow, they tend to have much squarer tread blocks with large voids between the blocks, can be studded or un-studded. Studded tyres being illegal in the UK of course. Due to the tread design they tend to squirm severely if used on tarmac affecting handling especially under braking. Their wear rate if used on tarmac is also very high. Snow Tyres are only really suitable for use in Nordic countries where driving on ice/snow covered roads is the norm rather than the occasional. |
To be fair Spyderman, I think we're coming at the same answer from different user places. Quite obviously you are talking traditional ice and snow tyres, however technology has moved on, and modern studless snow and ices tyres simply don't conform to the simplistic formula you outline above. Quite possibly your formula is still used in Landy circles, but not on modern high performance saloon cars. take a Look at a Bridgestone Blizzak, a Dunlop Graspic or a Michelin X-Ice Xi2.
http://www.racingtireguide.com/studless-ice-and-snow-tires.html
To the lay person, they'd not notice a great deal of difference between what I call a standard tyre and you call a summer tyre. In reality the so called 4 seasons tyre are just about compound and for those that live in snow free areas, ie the West of Ireland, even, SW UK, but where temps frequently stay below the magic 7degC they need a winter compound, and some element of siping, so that water, especially at 3.8degC, ie max density of water and the temp at which water almost behaves like diesel on a road surface can be successfully and efficiently evacuated. Now personally I'd advocate that all cars in the Uk use All seasons tyres as our climate in these islands is either cold or wet or a combo of the two and pure summer tyres are not really what we want like the dwellers of continental Europe like and most possibly need, where their temps almost never drop below 7degC. To me, so called summer tyres are a waste of money, even tho I dio love Bridgestone Potenzas (shameless plug;))
| Spyderman wrote: |
| Ratae Corieltauvorum wrote: |
| Landrovers have been using true snow tires for years in the UK |
That is absolute rubbish, most Land Rovers Defenders are fitted with All Terrain Tyres, certainly as OEM equipment, For owners that use their Land Rovers off-road Mud Terrain tyres are usually retro fitted. I use Extreme Mud Terrain Tyres on my Land Rover as I use mine mainly for Challenge Events off-road, I also have a set of Pirelli Ice & Snow Winter Tyres for generally rescuing stuck cars in the snow. I've only ever seen Defenders fitted with Winter Tyres in Italy, never seen another one in the UK. Even buying Winter Tyres for a Defender in the UK is difficult. Buying Snow Tyres for one, well it'd be easier to find Rocking-horse Shite. I'd be pleased for you to tell me where all of these Land Rovers with Snow Tyres are? I might buy a set for myself. |
You may have me here, I'd always presumed that Snowdon, Peaks, Cairngorms, Lake District Mountain Rescue teams all use snow tyres on their Defenders, SWB and LWB, but I could easily be wrong, as you clearly know your Landrovers
| Spyderman wrote: |
| Ratae Corieltauvorum wrote: |
on a front wheel drive car snow or winters are just fine on the driven wheels, ask a large proportion of people who live and drive round the Cairngorms. Rear wheel drive cars the other hand need all four to be swapped out as the driven wheels at the rear can "overload" the abilities of the front tyres. Ideally it's always better to use all winters or snows but on a front wheel drive 2WD, two winters or snows are better than all "summer" tyres and there is no such thing as summer tyres anyway.
As for dangerous I'm insure where you got your info from, but it sound like either a bloke on the bus or the manager of your local Kwik Fit;) |
Mixing Winter and Summer Tyres is dangerous full stop. You might do it, but you're seriously compromising the vehicles handling. Just like it's always advisable to fit new tyres to the rear axle on a FWD car, so as not to create oversteer characteristics in a FWD car. Fitting of Winter Tyres on the front axle of a FWD car for use in winter conditions would increase traction at the front wheels, but the traction at the rear wheels would remain poor. This would have the effect of the rear wheels trying to overtake the front under cornering and braking, which is dangerous. Insurance companies are liable not to honour any claims as OEM guidelines are not being followed. The rear overtaking the front is Oversteer, not Understeer as you've stated elsewhere. |
Errrr, I've not used the word understeer? I know exactly what I said, and the crux of it is, even if you experience oversteer on a FWD car with or without snow/winter tyres if you can't deal with it, you can't drive a FWD properly and shouldn't be out of the snow in a car anyway.
As I said earlier, but you either didn't read it or chose to ignore it, I've already experienced it over the past few days, but mainly for fun, and when I lost concentration, and even with a full set of Conti Winter Contacts on, I've had some superbv oversteer on the lanes around Somerset and Wiltshire, but as I know how to drive a FWD car appropriately, it's no biggy.
| Spyderman wrote: |
You state that there's no such thing as "Summer Tyres" The commonly used terms for tyres by all Manufacturers are.
Summer Tyres - Designed for highway use above 7C
Winter Tyres - Designed for highway use below 7C
Snow Tyres - Designed for use on snow/ice covered roads
All Season Tyres - A hybrid between Summer & Winter tyres which aren't as good as either in their specific use.
All Terrain Tyres - 50% on road, 50% off-road use.
Mud Terrain Tyres - 80% off-road, 20% on road use.
There is unlimited data to support what I've said, only your own personal experience to support yours. Because you've done something for years and got away with it doesn't make it right or safe. |
If you look around you'll find there is no ISO for any of the above categories, they are merely guidelines to enable potential buyers to understand what manufacturers have to sell them, I could probably add at least another two groups to that, Monsoon tyres, rainy Season tyres (distinct from Monsoon tyres;-) ), but I;m not in the business of selling tyres, so I'll leave it to an adman think tank to come up with more categories to sell to gullible, paranoid tyres buyers
| Spyderman wrote: |
| I can't remember the last time I've been on a bus and I've never been to a Kwik-Fit. |
You should try both, buses are good for reading on, and Kwik Fit often have soup in a cup from a machine, sometimes clean toilets and the only tyre chain in the Uk that takes Amex, which happens to be our companys card, so if I do splash out on new boots, that's where I always go, but as I'm not an employee, but a stakeholder, I don't take the wee wee 
Now I have you in a corner, I do keep looking at SWB Landys, do you have any recommendations? I couldn't stretch to much more than £2k, buit don't want a pretty one, i almost bought a nice one two winters ago, as our village is precariously attached to a 25% slope and is completely disabled with anything more than 57 flakes of reasonably large snow. Late 80s Defender? Anything to avoid?
Sean
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 24-01-13 16:23; edited 5 times in total
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Spyderman, I wanted to get and back and achieve more than 35mpg 
Ratae Corieltauvorum, So you are a Leicester supporter living near Bath
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 24-01-13 16:18; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Spyderman, Can we agree to disagree, I can't hack the BB markup anymore 
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Ratae Corieltauvorum, £2K is going to buy you a rot box Defender, a nice Series III but you've got to be hardcore tough to drive one or a decent Discovery. I drive a Series III but it's only a toy, like full climate control, it does exactly the same climate inside as outside.
Unless you need the slight extra capability of Defender then Discovery is the way to go, you'll get a lot more for your money. defender is a lifestyle choice for most, which keeps prices high, but basically Discovery is the same car underneath as Defender. I'm talking Series 1 & 2 Disco of course.
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FAQ
I do drive about 27K'ish a year (averaging 46 mpg) with a lot of 60-65 mph motorway miles. That makes MPG a big consideration and even when the Conti winter contacts come off again in April, economy goes up noticeably. Those 'grabbers' neither look like they'd fit my nasty wheels nor look like they're made for eeking out the last miles from a diesel tank. 