 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I was chatting to a guy in Tignes who was testing the Dupraz D 2 and he thought they worked very well. I didn't see him actually skiing on them, so it's hard to tell what standard he was on, but I'd be interested in giving a pair a shot
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We've seen all this in snowboards. It was hailed as all things to all men when it came out in 2007. Many people believed it back then and some still do. The snowboards become very easy to turn and flatter new riders, but have serious stability issues at speed and on ice.
I honestly cannot see how it would work on a ski with only one (foot) pressure point to load up/flatten the rocker out.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
Yes they can, although as the skis are generally fatter you need good snow conditions for the edge to grip. Once the ski is up on edge, the rockered portion often engages (remember cambered skis make the same 'rockered' shape in a carve). The big difference is, due to the lack of camber, you get less 'pop' out of the turn (as in when a cambered skis pops back to it's cambered shape).
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I was assuming the reverse sidecut would prevent the tip engaging in the carve on piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I love it . . . when a crossover from snowboarding completely F's with your heads 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Masque wrote: |
| I love it when a crossover from snowboarding completely F's with your heads |
Funny you should say that. Looks like there were a few primordial full-reverse-camber snowboards back in the 80s, but the designs never seemed to catch on and popped out of existence. The along comes McConkey, who takes waterski technology and applies it to snow-skis. A few years after the Spatula appears rocker returns to snowboards but done right, this time.
What crossed over from who?
Sounds like the head "f"ing works both ways 
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Serriadh, The most of it all is just a bit of blue-sky engineering to differentiate between your product and the next, to sell and make money from people who have little if anything to gain from this new kit other than a bit more ease of use in one situation and loss in another . . . it's to sell us 'quivers'. To me what most of it does is to allow skiers with experience and skill on one part of the hill not need to gain additional skills to use their equipment on another, sort of letting the ski have a wider envelope of use than the pilots experience rather than the skier having the skills to take a more focused use ski anywhere.
People can talk about negative camber and early rise rocker to their heart's content but as pointed out above all of this is just a compromise to flatter a lack of skill and put some people where they probably shouldn't be . . . just like twin tips put a lot of uncoordinated young gibbons into the park and subsequently into the fracture ward.
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| Masque wrote: |
People can talk about negative camber and early rise rocker to their heart's content but as pointed out above all of this is just a compromise to flatter a lack of skill and put some people where they probably shouldn't be . . . just like twin tips put a lot of uncoordinated young gibbons into the park and subsequently into the fracture ward. |
There is an element of that, I'm sure, but it also enables those of us who CAN do it, to just do it for longer, faster and harder than before.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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feef, and do it in different ways
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and we're back to smut 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Masque wrote: |
| it's to sell us 'quivers'. |
No one ski design does all things perfectly. How could it?
McConkey designed the Spatula for himself, first and foremost, because he saw a deficiency in existing equipment.
Marketing and sales came somewhat later.
| Masque wrote: |
| just a compromise to flatter a lack of skill |
You'd better be skiing with the aid of a lurk.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Serriadh, lurk? My skills base is all over the place 'cos I'll slither about on anything from a bin-bag down. I have lots of absent skills, that's why I work to get them. It's also why you won't find me in places where I may put others at risk.
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| Masque wrote: |
| Serriadh, lurk? |
Your fancy pair of ski-poles is clearly just a compromise to flatter a lack of skill
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm testing a pair of Fischer Hybrids at the moment.. they are adjustable and go from a carving ski to a rocker with a click of a "button". You can see the change in the profile of the ski as you click it on and off. Haven't done a huge amount on them yet.. One pure piste day where they performed very well in the normal mode and one slightly lumpy off piste day where I had them in rocker mode.. tips didn't dig in at all  Best of both worlds...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Serriadh, all to often they don't even match 
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Poster: A snowHead
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So I've been skiing around on my Redeemer Carbonlites for a couple of days (awesome skis, but I'll save that for a review in the equipment section)
Weekly powder dumps have temporarily (hopefully!) been postponed so I'm skiing around on a mix of pretty firm pistes and chopped up, somewhat wind/sun crust/chalky snow mix.
Redeemers are 128 under foot so perhaps not the optimal ski for the conditions, however the shape an rocker actually means they work really well both carving turns on the hard stuff and getting through the difficult snow. The coach I'm skiing with (who is certainly old enough and good enough to have experienced pretty much everything ski wise ) and I were discussing how rocker allows ski manufacturers to do amazing things with skis that can work well all over the mountain, but also how you can then get away with a much bigger ski and still not give your knees quite such a workout that they'd be getting on similar sized non-rockered skis.
I too was a sceptic, but except for actually racing, or if the off-piste gets really bad and I'm only blasting round on icy slopes, I don't think I'd have any reason to choose a non-rockered ski.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Even on hard snow the rocker *can* make the turn initiation of a mid fat (say 80m++) ski easier (if it has been implemented properly). |
Apart from the fact that the ski is effectively shorter, how does that work? Is the main width of the shovel "in front" of the contact point? And even if it is, how does it help with the turn? |
Basically the full edge length of ski only engages during mid section of the turn when pressure is applied to the ski. Watch the K2 video, it explains the concept of "all terrain rocker" on hard snow well. Though clearly the primary benefit of rocker is to prevent tip dive in softer snow.
Playing devils advocate : If rocker improves the float of a narrower ski then it could be argued that it (indirectly) improves the hard snow performance and overall versatility ? i.e you don't need such a wide ski in the first place 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haggis, I can picture that in my mind, but I can't understand how it helps on initiation; although the shorter effective ski length will make it easier to pivot.
To your last point; it's still the bit under your boot that counts 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| To your last point; it's still the git above your boot that counts |
FIFY
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
Well twenty years on people still ask for 'paraboliques' [carving skis] on a daily basis, as if we were just catching up with the trend...
Ok, by 'people' I mean exclusively the French!  |
French ski instructor last week (who certainly improved our skiing ability) kept banging on about how important it was to use these 'modern skis' properly. We'd never skied anything but!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| although the shorter effective ski length will make it easier to pivot |
^ this...
Also : with first generation fat ski's (2001-2005) the widest point of the tip was often where the ski contacted with snow. this could 'catch up' a little when transitioning into the next turn. Rocker can eliminate this effect as the widest point of the tip is generally no longer the contact point
Best example of how rocker can perform on hard snow is to demo K2 Coomba (unrockered) vs. Coombak (rockered). On a piste the Coombak is subtly easier to turn.
| Quote: |
| ...still the bit under your boot that counts |
Not really. people get obsessed with ski width under foot. however once you get to 90-100mm wide the shape / flex / rocker profile of the ski tip makes a big difference to how floaty the skis will actually feel in 3D snow.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
We've seen all this in snowboards. It was hailed as all things to all men when it came out in 2007. Many people believed it back then and some still do. The snowboards become very easy to turn and flatter new riders, but have serious stability issues at speed and on ice.
I honestly cannot see how it would work on a ski with only one (foot) pressure point to load up/flatten the rocker out. |
I'm not sure you're understanding the principle... WHy would you want to 'flatten out' the rocker? That would completely remove the point of having it! Rocker's been around for much longer than 2007 too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Playing devils advocate : If rocker improves the float of a narrower ski then it could be argued that it (indirectly) improves the hard snow performance and overall versatility ? i.e you don't need such a wide ski in the first place |
I think there's two aspects at play. The rocker means it's easier to get the tips up in soft snow, so a neutral or even back-seat weighting isn't required, but it's the width that maintains the float throughout the length of the skis.
Imagine a narrow-waisted carving ski with a rocker. The tips will be breaking the surface of the soft snow, but it won't float properly without the pressure from underneath due to it's narrow waist.
Rocker lifts you, width keeps you there.
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| Masque wrote: |
Serriadh, The most of it all is just a bit of blue-sky engineering to differentiate between your product and the next, to sell and make money from people who have little if anything to gain from this new kit other than a bit more ease of use in one situation and loss in another . . . it's to sell us 'quivers'. To me what most of it does is to allow skiers with experience and skill on one part of the hill not need to gain additional skills to use their equipment on another, sort of letting the ski have a wider envelope of use than the pilots experience rather than the skier having the skills to take a more focused use ski anywhere.
People can talk about negative camber and early rise rocker to their heart's content but as pointed out above all of this is just a compromise to flatter a lack of skill and put some people where they probably shouldn't be . . . just like twin tips put a lot of uncoordinated young gibbons into the park and subsequently into the fracture ward. |
It's not, good skier offpiste on big skis massively trumps good skier offpiste on piste skis (and vice versa) - check out the video of Didier Cuche struggling down Bec de Rosses on GS skis, then compare to the FWT guys. The simple fact is the wrong skis for the terrain prescribe how you must ski it - piste skis in pow pretty much neccessitates little bouncy turns, no matter how good the skier (someone recently posted video of a BASI course skiing pow, all doing the same bouncy robot move - very skilled, but a waste of the freedom powder offers). Check out Coombes in Aspen Extreme, then watch more modern stuff like McConkey, Hoji, Thovex or Stephen Drake's promo vids for DPS, the style is completely different, and inaccessible without the right equipment, event for the best skiers.
Surf's up, you don't want to miss it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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clarky999, didn't say good skier on fat skis. More chance of inexperienced skier where he shouldn't be without guidance/teacher. There are plenty of skis you can take pretty much anywhere, there'll always be some compromise. I'm talking about those . . . and we've all met them . . . who've got themselves the latest wizz bang kit and now gleefully pointing them where the basher don't bash.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snowball wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
Yes they can, although as the skis are generally fatter you need good snow conditions for the edge to grip. Once the ski is up on edge, the rockered portion often engages (remember cambered skis make the same 'rockered' shape in a carve). The big difference is, due to the lack of camber, you get less 'pop' out of the turn (as in when a cambered skis pops back to it's cambered shape).
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I was assuming the reverse sidecut would prevent the tip engaging in the carve on piste. |
Ah, sorry, thought you were asking about rocker at that point. Normally the rocker and taper/reverse sidecut begin at the same point, so the widest part of the ski is always in contact with the snow (assuming they have normal camber underfoot rather than a full rocker), thus the reverse sidecut bit doesn't really come into play on piste. It acts more offpiste, slicing through the snow without hooking the ski into a turn as with conventional sidecut, so you can draw out and 'slarve' or 'smear' bigger, faster turns (in powder, say).
Some companies (ie 4FRNT, with the Renegade) play about with matching the curve of the rocker with the sidecut radius, i guess to try and maximise edge contact in a carved turn (with a full-rockered ski). I've got no experience of that though, so can't really comment on how much it works.
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Masque, ah, gotcha. Normally without safety kit, and trying to follow other groups 'cos they don't know where they're going.
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You know it makes sense.
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clarky999, them's the ones [guilty memory of shame smilie] [/guilty memory of shame smilie]
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| feef wrote: |
| Rocker lifts you, width keeps you there. |
You can always substitude speed for girth 
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Poster: A snowHead
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clarky999, ridden a full rocker board on hard piste . . . If I'd have relaxed I'd have shat me'sen  Glorious in hero show and just off the side.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| clarky999, ridden a full rocker board on hard piste . . . If I'd have relaxed I'd have shat me'sen Glorious in hero show and just off the side. |
Have to admit I'm very curious about your teleboard (combine that will full rocker and all sorts of perverted thoughts start going through your head...)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Masque wrote: |
| clarky999, them's the ones [guilty memory of shame smilie] [/guilty memory of shame smilie] |
Pretty sure we've all been there at some point!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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clarky999, The old rocker on top takes care of that . . . a survivor of the 'Mod Wars', a Velo strikes back.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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This thread delivers. Doubts, conspiracies and Masque being smug over a simple idea that Pingu invented!
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meh, Hey! Don't diss the penguin 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Offpiste it's great, on piste skis it's pointless and already being reduced on many models (back to being a normal ski). Agree with underanewname in cynicism. |
I'd change that to ungroomed its great, freshly groomed its pointless.....
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Having skied recently in the world capital of rocker I noticed a couple of things. Everyone local or semi local skis some variant of rocker and b) it doesn't stop some tourists breaking out the SX61 S9000 combo. Skiing's fun don't get hung up on the small stuff.
Edit to add - skiing livetoski's Flyswatters is the most fun thing I've ever done in a fridge off the M1.
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FAQ
