 Poster: A snowHead
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Lots of self-taught boarders are pants - chucking their torso around or kicking their back leg to turn. This is where the like of McNab make their money introducing radical concepts such as foot steering. OTOH, the most fluid, natural boarders also seem to be largely self developed or at least not have ever had "advanced" lessons.
I think for the ski instruction industry part of the challenge is to equip punters with tools to self assess and develop so that instruction delivers value long after it's been delivered. The old world model of being told/shown what to do then badgered or the model which ties students into continuous lessons don't seem very relevant or value for money anymore.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, Part of that is many boarders start young and if they do 'get it' they get it quickly, the rest just talk hard and play soft . . . and shovel snow all over the bloody hill 
From reading Rob I get the impression that the instruction industry is changing . . . but it will take years for the old guard and old habits to leave the slopes. That maybe why relatively new businesses like his own and NewGen are becoming successful.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| fatbob wrote: |
| ... part of the challenge is to equip punters with tools to self assess and develop |
What sort of tools do you have in mind? We use video analysis a lot, and frequently get our clients to work in pairs so they can observe and feedback to each other. This is to give an accurate mental picture of their own skiing as well as being able to observe important movements in other skiers. Some skiers are better than others at that kind of observation, but I'm never sure the extent to which this helps them to develop when they are free skiing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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As you slide over the snow there’s an amazing physical reaction happening both at the sub-atomic level as water molecules pass from crystal to liquid
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Sub-atomic level?? Is there a danger in skiing near CERN?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, I've never been in a teaching/coaching situation where pairing up works . . . UNLESS both parties knew and understood FULLY what was needed to achieve the goal and both had already successfully demonstrated all the progression steps to do do it. It's not a system for beginners.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Masque wrote: |
| rob@rar, I've never been in a teaching/coaching situation where pairing up works . . . UNLESS both parties knew and understood FULLY what was needed to achieve the goal and both had already successfully demonstrated all the progression steps to do do it. It's not a system for beginners. |
I don't really teach beginners, and I tend to use it with higher end skiers. It's also tightly constrained so I give one or, at most, two points of focus to observe and feedback on. The feedback is often constrained by requiring a rating on a scale of 1 to 5. And I listen in to the feedback to make sure they are looking at the right things and then giving the correct feedback. Also helps group dynamics, makes a change from them listening to me drone on, gives more responsibility to them for their own learning, helps to educate their 'eye', often leads to a better understanding of the theory, etc. It works a treat 
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johnE, (atomic really, bit of hyperbole) Na, I was treated on a lift in France to a physics lesson by a DuPont plastics engineer. The reason we're supposed to brush out the tiny grooves in our bases is as the ski passes over the snow some of it melts to form water molecules and the grooves create tiny pockets of low pressure and the molecules split to form gasses and we slide as a hovercraft . . . Seems logical to me. They put microphones in the test skis to listen to the 'crack' when this happens as part of developing base materials in terms of porosity for wax retention etc. Apparently a good 'tech' can tell when a ski needs waxing or is using the wrong wax just by the sound of the ski sliding on the snow.
This is all apocryphal, so don't shoot the messenger.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 9-01-13 18:09; edited 1 time in total
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rob@rar, gotcha 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
frequently get our clients to work in pairs so they can observe and feedback to each other
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Most of our PSB lessons were like that. was quite surprising what other people see but you can't. Also being forced to mix it all up, short/medium/long skiddy/carve, and match the partner, so you are forced to ski what's there and no longer looking at the snow immediately in front (a mistake I make both on skis and bikes, I think).
PS for the benefit of Masque, Spoileryes my lesson partner then was OliviaDB 
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Is there a danger in skiing near CERN?
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Getting sucked into a black hole must be like finding a man eating crevasse.
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| andy wrote: |
| Getting sucked into a black hole must be like finding a man eating crevasse. |
Given your ski partner . . . very apt 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
use video analysis a lot, and frequently get our clients to work in pairs so they can observe and feedback to each other. This is to give an accurate mental picture of their own skiing
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For me (as a near-beginner) the important bit is not the mental picture itself but the link between that mental picture and the sensation of what the skis are actually doing.
I don't want to learn that holding my arm here or bending my knee here is the right way to ski - I want to develop my ability to feel when the ski is doing the right thing, and then learn which of the many conscious and unconscious movements of my body are associated with it so I can get more and more consistent at making that happen.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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From my other sports backgrounds I am quite aware of the need for feel/absorption of bumps on the ground. You can learn to be quite aware of levels of grip through your shoes when fencing on a sports hall floor - and it's a very similar concept for me feeling how the skis are behaving on the snow. But the issue is one of skill, and of fear (or overthinking) overriding the natural senses. We always use feel walking/running on an uneven surface (steep muddy poached field with do on lead in one hand) - the issue is not teaching it, but enabling people to use what they already have.
Boots not fitting is a big issue with feel. Also you need to be aligned correctly. Probably the most effective ski lesson I ever had was with an old school ESF instructor in la Rosiere, who when I couldn't get a sensible side slip going, grabbed my hips and put them in the right place. Problem solved, I could then flatten/edge my skis appropriately for the condition - I could feel that there was a problem, but I couldn't suss what I was doing wrong.
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| Masque wrote: |
never summer, and that's why I advocate walking pace bunny slope that flares out to nothing or a big cushion to straightline into while learning posture and position for both skier and boarder.
Instructors don't teach it but we see it all the time. |
Masque, actually from what I have noticed at Hemel this is a fundamental part of a beginners lesson plan.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Masque wrote: |
never summer, and that's why I advocate walking pace bunny slope that flares out to nothing or a big cushion to straightline into while learning posture and position for both skier and boarder.
Instructors don't teach it but we see it all the time. . |
I think your the *only* one saying instructors don't teach it.
They do, alot. It's no.1 thing to do in the BASI manual and there are pages and pages of drills, ideas etc
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I haven't read all of this thread, but:
I am a punter. I ski OK. I can get round a lot of the mountain and am comfortable in varied conditions both on and off-piste. It's a while since I've had a lesson, but I have some booked for my next trip. My concern is that I'll get lots of technique technical speak, much as I read in this forum, a large amount of which is reliant on me (punter) understanding the dictionary of instructor-speak.
An example from the world of technology: in the business of processing cards (credit, bebit etc.) there is a element known as 'acquiring'. I have a customer who often uses this term. What he NEVER does is tell me whether his issue is to do with 'card acquiring' or 'merchant acquiring', which are two different things. The point being that, unless I know the taxonomy of his world, I don't actually know what he's talking about, or what to ask next.
You lot talk of 'engagement', 'flexion' (in what way is that different to 'flex'????), 'torsion' and a whole heap of others which currently escape me. If you could just use words from everyday usage, and remind me to listed to the feedback that I'm getting through my feet, I think I might get more out of my lesson.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Elston, kitenski, I've rarely seen it in resort and certainly didn't experience it myself. I've said above, instruction teaching appears to be changing all the time and it will take time for this to filter through the industry. I wasn't aware of this when I posted.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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zammo, the OP was aimed at the instructors here and yes some of the language is obscure if you don't know the context. From reading Rob and others I think you can be safe in thinking you will not be burdened by verbage.
Yes, the concept is you should be able to feel what's going on under you feet, to keep relaxed as much as totally possible and to enjoy yourself . . . which is the biggest goal of all
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| Elston, kitenski, I've rarely seen it in resort and certainly didn't experience it myself. I've said above, instruction teaching appears to be changing all the time and it will take time for this to filter through the industry. I wasn't aware of this when I posted. |
Just out of interest, what do (did?) you think is a typical way that skiers are introduced to skiing during their first two or three lessons.
zammo, a decent instructor will use as much or as little technical language as you want. I've used way more technical language in this thread than I ever would in a typical session that I'm teaching.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Masque, I doubt I've *seen* it in resort, but then I reckon I spend approx 0 minutes hanging around the areas where they would perform such part of the lessons......unless I'm giving the lesson!
However (as you may find out) doing lesson plans or shadowing beginner lessons and you'll wish you never mentioned it 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| Masque wrote: |
never summer, and that's why I advocate walking pace bunny slope that flares out to nothing or a big cushion to straightline into while learning posture and position for both skier and boarder.
Instructors don't teach it but we see it all the time. . |
I think your the *only* one saying instructors don't teach it.
They do, alot. It's no.1 thing to do in the BASI manual and there are pages and pages of drills, ideas etc |
When I am teaching beginners; I do a good amount of straight running. Talking about feeling what is going on; mobilising the angle, knee and hip joints. jumping/landing quietly. Feeling the differing snow as you slide down. Working on finding sound posture and feeling what feels good and what actually works. I also do a fair amount of static balancing before we even slide; lean forward; lean backwards; what feels more stable.
Any instructor worth their badge will be ensuring the basics are in place before moving on to the next levels of skill devlopment.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, kitenski, scooby_simon, Last couple of trips I did some lurking, I'll write l8r, I'm busy at the mo.
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Masque, I really cannot comment on other associations but from what I have seen in the last few years is that basi provides an excellent framework for developing ski instructors.
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| Elston wrote: |
| Masque, I really cannot comment on other associations but from what I have seen in the last few years is that basi provides an excellent framework for developing ski instructors. |
So I'm discovering . . .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I don't really teach beginners, and I tend to use it with higher end skiers. It's also tightly constrained so I give one or, at most, two points of focus to observe and feedback on. The feedback is often constrained by requiring a rating on a scale of 1 to 5. And I listen in to the feedback to make sure they are looking at the right things and then giving the correct feedback. Also helps group dynamics, makes a change from them listening to me drone on, gives more responsibility to them for their own learning, helps to educate their 'eye', often leads to a better understanding of the theory, etc. It works a treat |
Rob. This sort of stuff is what I'm thinking of in self-development. I suspect you and Scott and maybe even BASI itself are fairly advanced in "new world" ski instruction. Everyone has the potential to improve from sitting on a chairlift - identifying who is skiing well and badly and why the "bad" skier is skiing that way. Noting a point or 2 about the good skier to try from stance width to balance position etc. I'm not saying it results in perfect form but then I'm a believer in functionality over prettiness anyway.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I'm a believer in functionality over prettiness anyway. |
we've seen the pics
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Everyone has the potential to improve from sitting on a chairlift - identifying who is skiing well and badly and why the "bad" skier is skiing that way. Noting a point or 2 about the good skier to try from stance width to balance position etc. I'm not saying it results in perfect form but then I'm a believer in functionality over prettiness anyway. |
I agree that we can all learn from watching other skiers, both good points and bad points (although I have to remind myself that occasionally chairlift rides should be devoted to looking at the scenery rather than watching other skiers). I spend a lot of time looking at other skiers and occasionally get a bit of good-natured ribbing from instructor friends at Hemel at how little skiing I do when I'm teaching there, but unless I'm watching closely I find it difficult to distinguish between important movements and "noise". This is one of my favourite photos from this season for that reason.
Couldn't agree with you more about functionality over form/style/prettiness.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Masque - did heaps and heaps of that stuff when I was taught... but the guy that taught me also specialised in teaching blind skiers...
I ran the kids obstacle course quite a lot really... although a deep tuck was needed to get through the tunnels!
That guy refused point blank to take me from the beginner slope until all stars were aligned for going to the next slope... (good snow conditions, me having a good health day, good weather etc)... he got harassed by the other instructors incessantly all that time as they were quite sure that I was 'ready' to go to that next slope up... funnily enough as I look back I'd happily trade a lot of time spent with some of those other instructors for more time 'playing' on easy terrain with Brian...
Also re the "walking up slope" comment someone else made about playing on easy terrain - should not be necessary! My home resort has 4 ways to get up the (purpose built) beginner slope:
1) Chairlift to the top(woooaaaah) - slow chair staffed with excellent lifties taught to help students - gets you to the (I think) 5degree steeper top section
2) a pair of snow runners (moving walkway things) - so you can get off at one or at the top of both...
3) a "Thomas the Tank Engine" - old snowmobile with a small trailer... it can carry people partway up slope
4) Walking
The walking is not much used except perhaps the first 1/2 hour of a never ever lesson... then the other three options are available...
The majority of the slope is 3 degrees or less...
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| little tiger wrote: |
| That guy refused point blank to take me from the beginner slope until all stars were aligned for going to the next slope. |
That's the sign of a great instructor. I assume these were private lessons? It's a challenge to balance the needs of a group in terms of enjoyment and learning for the first week or so of group lessons.
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You know it makes sense.
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Yes - private lessons. He was a very good instructor - had a disability himself(a trench digger had cut through his foot years earlier)... He was also the guy that first diagnosed that I had a disability rather than just poorly coordinated. Years of experience - he recognised the movement patterns as matching certain brain injury patterns. Sent me off to see DWA and the navy doctor
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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musher, we should all start there . . . and keep going back. It's never too late to play like a child. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Masque,
I've not seen anything like it before (I don't hang around many ski schools, honest). I thought they were brilliant aids for the kids. Still, send them across a mogul field I say 
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FAQ
