 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Unbelievable. Why does the guy take his gloves off? Why only half of the shovel? And why is only one guy doing any digging? And why do they spend bloody ages faffing around getting the transceiver of one of the other skiers just after the avalanche has gone down 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Interesting clip thanks for posting, just goes to show how situations melt down when people are under stress, ill equipped and poorly trained. If that guys hand was 6 inches lower it would have been very bad...
One thing I cant help but comment on is that the lead rescuer felt a couple hundred quid for helmet cams was a good investment but didnt have a shovel...
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 2-01-13 12:21; edited 1 time in total
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Very interesting footage.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And while they were faffing with the beacon another of party way saying he could see the victim. Steilhang, the buried guy had one of the 2 beacons the party of 5 had between them and it would seem the lady with the other wasn't trusted to uses it. They only had 2 shovels and probes between them as well and it'd seem they weren't quite sure which bag the rest of the shovel was in!
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Jeez! Goes to show that it's not just where you ski that's important to assess - but with whom! A lot to learn from that. 
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Yup, I doubt that they had practiced for that eventuality.
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Pedantica, Yup, think they all deserve a place on the Darwin Award at risk survivor list!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It gets bizarrely comical when the buried victim ends up shoveling himself out... Jesus christ.
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| Timmaah wrote: |
| It gets bizarrely comical when the buried victim ends up shoveling himself out... Jesus christ. |
Yup, "Carry On Rescue The Buried Skier" springs to mind! Wonder if the people involved are reading the feedback they getting on Unofficial networks?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There are loads of comments following the video shown on the link and really all that needs to be said is already stated there, so I doubt if there is much to add.
It is well worth a read.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Rather scary really - Luckily it wasn't a larger avalanche or multiple burials...
Do a few practice burial and recovery at the start of the season for this very reason - hope I never have to use the skills but would rather I know how!
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Incredible that a group of 5 were off piste with only two transceivers and 2 shovels (incomplete ones) between them, also amazing is when the rescuer has to look uphill and yell at the rest of the group to keep to the trees ! I mean they've just seen one party member go down in an avalanche they should have realised the terrain was prone to them
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You know it makes sense.
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But respect to the group for posting the video ( despite the obvious cock-ups ).
A reminder to us all to keep practising!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Tomahawk Tone wrote: |
But respect to the group for posting the video ( despite the obvious cock-ups ).
A reminder to us all to keep practising! |
Are you sure it was them that posted it? The link seems to suggest it came from the ski patrol
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DCG wrote: |
| Tomahawk Tone wrote: |
But respect to the group for posting the video ( despite the obvious cock-ups ).
A reminder to us all to keep practising! |
Are you sure it was them that posted it? The link seems to suggest it came from the ski patrol |
One of the skiers must have made the video available though. I doubt if they were under any obligation to do so.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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richjp, Agreed. But did they realise that it would then be posted on a public site? I'm not defending them, by the way, but equally I'm not sure I feel respect is due them
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Christ, unbelievable. Skiing with only two transceivers and one shovel that they couldn't find the handle for is just the start (presumably only two of them were worth saving but the girl couldn't use the thing!!!!?).
It should be : pull down jacket zip, (all) switch to receive, ski straight down. Then he digs with no handle and with gloves off so spends more than half the time warming his hands!!! He was lucky it was such a gentle slide so never stuck together in hard lumps like is usual. I'm assuming the snow was VERY cold, so less apt to stick together. That avalanched stuff was so soft you could ski it! The one bit of the mountain that won't slide is avalanche debris.
Edit: Although there is much criticism below the video of the fact they skied that area, the leader was nearly skiing the right bit of it (ie sticking to the ridge).
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Sadly it's not that unbelievable that they were off with two transceivers and two shovels between them. We did an off piste intro lesson last year with a well known French ski school and were given two shovels/probes between four of us. We did all have a transceiver but weren't shown how to use it beyond turning it on - nothing on putting it into search mode.
Obviously we've educated ourselves better and kitted ourselves out now, and I'd never go out without a full set of kit each, but when you're with an instructor you do kind of expect them to equip you and instruct you properly.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it isn't always necessary for everyone in a group to carry a shovel and probe
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| Arno wrote: |
| I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it isn't always necessary for everyone in a group to carry a shovel and probe |
Isn't it? How do you know who's going to get hit and who's not? My shovel and probe weigh about 700g, hardly worth leaving them out.
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OwenM, for example, heli ski operations will often have a lead and tail guide (or designated person who skis last) who are fully equipped; others will just carry a transceiver and an airbag
http://www.lastfrontierheli.com/safety-gear.html
| Quote: |
| Each group in the helicopter will carry a backpack containing essential rescue items: a shovel, a probe, a spare radio and small 1st aid kit. The pack is rotated through the group during the day and the guest carrying it always skis / boards the run last. |
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| Arno wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Each group in the helicopter will carry a backpack containing essential rescue items: a shovel, a probe, a spare radio and small 1st aid kit. The pack is rotated through the group during the day and the guest carrying it always skis / boards the run last. |
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So the last person in the group is expendable? That sounds rather scary to me or have they come up with a surefire way of making sure the last guy down doesn't trigger anything?
Oand h quite by coincidence Arno I came across your first snowheads post today thanks to a google search on ski cross skis, the thread it is in comes up as the second link in the search results!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davkt, the lead guide will have kit and will have to hike up to search for the last person. they'd need to hike up to help the last person regardless of who else is carrying kit
you have made me curious as to my first post now!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Arno wrote: |
| I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it isn't always necessary for everyone in a group to carry a shovel and probe |
| Arno wrote: |
OwenM, for example, heli ski operations will often have a lead and tail guide (or designated person who skis last) who are fully equipped; others will just carry a transceiver and an airbag
http://www.lastfrontierheli.com/safety-gear.html
| Quote: |
| Each group in the helicopter will carry a backpack containing essential rescue items: a shovel, a probe, a spare radio and small 1st aid kit. The pack is rotated through the group during the day and the guest carrying it always skis / boards the run last. |
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I completely agree ... you are going out on a limb here.
Just because heli ski operators do it to squeeze more people on to choppers, it doesn't make it best practice.
One of the (only) things the "bossman" did right in the video was to keep some of his group out of danger so they could perform a rescue if there was a secondary slide. In this video and your scenario without any gear they'd be next to useless. I'm sure the stats for secondary slides onto rescuers are incredibly low but it's still some reassurance.
Also more shovels would have allowed someone else to help with the digging and between two of them they may have even found one with a handle 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Arno wrote: |
OwenM, for example, heli ski operations will often have a lead and tail guide (or designated person who skis last) who are fully equipped; others will just carry a transceiver and an airbag
http://www.lastfrontierheli.com/safety-gear.html
| Quote: |
| Each group in the helicopter will carry a backpack containing essential rescue items: a shovel, a probe, a spare radio and small 1st aid kit. The pack is rotated through the group during the day and the guest carrying it always skis / boards the run last. |
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Wait a minute. WTF one shovel & probe per group?! I know jack poo-poo about avalanches but I know that digging is tiring, time consuming and if possible you would want more than one person to be digging at the same time.
So each guest does not carry a probe or shovel but they are given an ABS airbag!!!! Surely it cannot cost that them much more investment to provide a shovel and probe for each skier? Not only that but isn't it a good idea to lead by example and to help people build good habits from the start?
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I don't think we should be too cocky here. I've never dug someone for real, but when practicing without the extra stress of your mate suffocating I have experienced many less than ideal situations. People running around without direction, not switching to receive, faulty shovels, glove issues, harness issues, etc. etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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 as Elston points out this heli co give out ABS bakpacks so can't be due to space in choppers, seems even stranger then.
However in the past had seen heli co's who didn't allow customers to use backpacks inc airbags due to space restrictions and the "danger of accidental deployment in the chopper"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I am happy to admit that I know nothing about off piste skiing and avalanche stuff.
However, it was completely bonkers when he went off without gloves and then had to stop digging. It was obvious that he would have been better off with even gloves where the inner liners were completely jumbled than no gloves at all.
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Poster: A snowHead
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..
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 4-01-13 10:42; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| betterinblack wrote: |
| Just because heli ski operators do it to squeeze more people on to choppers, it doesn't make it best practice. |
did I say it was best practice? i do think it is reasonable practice in some circumstances
just to clear things up, the lead guide always has kit and then so does to designated tail person so there are TWO full sets of kit in every group. have to admit i was quite surprised that on the site that I quoted that the tail person could be a punter rather than a guide. however, if you are following strict group discipline, only skiing one at a time and you have a heli a radio call away, it isn't unreasonable
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Arno wrote: |
i do think it is reasonable practice in some circumstances
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I am puzzled by this view. If a group has been avalanched, then I imagine the first person will be at least as likely as anyone else to have been taken. Also, it's quite likely that the second person could have triggered the slide, in which case it could have engulfed both the lead and second person (I understand that by taking precautions you minimise the risk of two people being involved - but not eliminate it). So, the rescuers would need to recover two people with only one probe and shovel. I just don't understand why a professional outfit would consider that to be a reasonable proposition - but maybe I'm missing something having never been on one of these North American heli weeks.
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DCG, I didn't come up with this protocol but a couple of points:
1. I guess they judge that by using safe travel protocols they reduce the likelihood of multiple burials so much that it is not worth worrying about
2. They probably take the view that the punters won't be much use in a rescue situation so best just to have them out of the way rather than participating
3. They have a heli at their disposal. Presumably it can be on the scene in minutes to help with the search if needed and to get any stranded punters out of there without them needing to ski through an avalanche zone
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Given that a half decent shovel and probe costs relatively little and takes up very little space in a backpack I'm surprised that LFH don't have it as standard kit for every skier. If someone does get caught and ends up deeply buried there is a huge amount of snow to be moved, and having more than two people shovelling might well be necessary (see this for an idea about strategic digging). I'm guessing that the lead skier (usually the guide) is going to run a slightly higher risk of getting taken by a slide, so if only the lead skier and tail-end skier are equipped for digging you run a higher risk that you end up with only one shovel.
Their cost:benefit analysis of carrying shovels seems all wrong to me.
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Arno, Your 2nd point had occurred to me and I can see why they might come to that opinion. The first point is interesting, but it leads to the conclusion that while the punters can't be trusted to use a shovel, they can follow safe travel protocols correctly. I've often found that people are unable/unwilling to strictly observe the separation guidelines - particularly on a traverse.
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DCG, I'd ask for my money back if I found myself traversing on a heli trip 
I am with the majority view that everyone should carry all the kit unless there is a good reason not to. Not sure how much the weight of shovels/probes comes into a heli operators's considerations, but I could see how they could conclude that having clients carrying an air bag makes much more difference to clients' safety than having them all carry shovels and probes, esp if clients aren't well practiced in using shovels and probes
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| Arno wrote: |
| Not sure how much the weight of shovels/probes comes into a heli operators's considerations, |
Have to say that if the weight of half a dozen shovels and probes was a deciding factor in whether a helicopter could fly safely or not I don't think i'd be happy to fly in it regardless of how many shovels it was carrying!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, fair point
anyway, I have a few days booked with a guide in Canada later in the season so I will ask him for a bit more detail on these practices and report back. it may be as simple as, if the punter already owns the kit they probably have some clue how to use and and can bring it along. if the punter does not own the kit, they are better off being out of the way in any rescue effort. that is all speculation however
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Arno, I was once turfed off a helicopter because it was low on fuel and they were concerned about the weight on board. They went to refuel but in the meantime the weather closed in and it wasn't able to come and collect me after visiting the nearest Shell garage. Had to spend the night ill-equipped in the middle of an active lava flow. Since then I've been quite cautious about flying in the damn things, so any concern about being overweight because of too many shovels would see me heading back to bed for a duvet day!
Be interested in what your Canadian guide says about this. Surely even the dumbest skier can lend a hand shovelling under the leadership of a more experienced skier?
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