 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Impressive use of the piste map as a navigation aid.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
The words at the end kinda sum it up. It was dumb and lucky and they know it but you have to admire the screw it, lets go, attitude.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
the guy falling off the ladder, and the one skiing into into the rock!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
LOL this has come full circle! davidof got it off a post in The Piste section when he posted it on Pistehors. I saw the thread on UKC this morning, most amusing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Also posted by someone else in the other thread, but way to channel the GSA 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The UKC thread started as a pretty typical UKC troll, although most people didn't agree with "Frank4short". But yep, no doubt it'll also have made its way to TGR by now for critical anal-ization by their judgemental old armchair warrior skiing gods. To me though, it's a humble and honest montage of what happened following a navigational error.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wow, they were lucky! they could have found themselves at the edge of a 300 metre cliff for all they knew.
Stupid. Imagine the buzz, though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Shows what happens when you go off piste without a guide and without being familiar to the area, they were lucky, they at least had the right kit and were good technically which is how they got down safely anyone without that kit and skill would have been dead was potentially very stupid to do an unfamiliar route without a guide
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
D G Orf, No need for a guide, just wait for the next day when the visibility was good enough to find the correct day down, and be able to better assess slopes for avi risk etc. When they came across the via ferrats it was obvious that there was a way down even if they would have to rappel or climb all the way. I doubt a guide would have taken an unknown group out on something so gnarly in crap visibility anyway.
Sticking my neck out here but IMHO skiers are often too ready to hire a guide instead of taking the time and trouble to learn some mountaineering skills (including navigation) to be much more self reliant. After all if your guide disapears down a hole you would be as lost as if your satnav packs up in central London, whereas with a group of competent mates you have more options, and over time gain more useful experience. I've othing against guides (i have some mates who are) but better to pay them for instruction rather than just leading.
Would have been better if some of them could ski a bit better 'though 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
On the rocks, +1
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
On the rocks, they were just 4 friends having an adventure - no guide in the sense of qualified guide - just one of them remembering it from a school trip 10 years earlier: climbing UP in SUMMER!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If all the UKC, pistehors and snowheads posters knocking the skiing skills of those lads were assembled together, it'd be called the FIS circuit teams.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
you have to question their decision making at the beginning, but having got themselves into a mess they dealt with it quite well, I thought (apart from the bit where one of them fell down a cliff...)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| On the rocks wrote: |
D G Orf,
Sticking my neck out here but IMHO skiers are often too ready to hire a guide instead of taking the time and trouble to learn some mountaineering skills (including navigation) to be much more self reliant. After all if your guide disapears down a hole you would be as lost as if your satnav packs up in central London, whereas with a group of competent mates you have more options, and over time gain more useful experience. I've othing against guides (i have some mates who are) but better to pay them for instruction rather than just leading.
Would have been better if some of them could ski a bit better 'though |
Music to my ears.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
Incompetent or true grit?
|
Both?
Incompetent on planning and navigation. True grit (and competent) on improvisation.
Isn't that what outdoor adventure in the mountain is about? You do your best in planning (which they didn't). But when things goes wrong, be it weather or human error, you deal with the situation and make the best of it. Those blokes seem to have sufficient skill and the requisit gears to handle the difficult unintended route they ended up on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
abc, [b]On the rocks[/b, +1
Getting all nanny state and Daily Mail on these guys is the exact opposite of what off-piste is all about.
They had the gear, the nous, the confidence and cojones to get themselves down. Maybe not always within classroom safety margins but with a little luck (which everybody relies on now and then) it worked for them. They've gained huge experience, one massive buzz and something to giggle over forever more. It could've gone the other way...but it didn't.
If I hear the beginning of the clip right, they kinda knew they were going off-route but thought they'd go for it anyway.
Out of my league but beanies off to them, I say.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
I enjoyed watching the video at least.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
abc, Big Paua, Indeed
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Big Paua,
+1
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| meh wrote: |
| LOL this has come full circle! davidof got it off a post in The Piste section when he posted it on Pistehors. I saw the thread on UKC this morning, most amusing. |
I think I credited snow heads too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| tiffin wrote: |
| The words at the end kinda sum it up. It was dumb and lucky and they know it but you have to admire the screw it, lets go, attitude. |
I sorta think that, too. As a totally side comment, I do wish that those posting videos didn't feel that they have to screw up gripping videos by adding distracting sound tracks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Big Paua, if they had planned it, I would agree.
But they got 'lost'. And the guy that decided to slide head first off the face and over the ladder instead of using it is one of the luckiest geezers EVER - he could have kept on going so easily or really smacked his head and neck up. Missing the waist high rock is a function of not being able to see clearly because of the weather - another failure on their part
Bottom line - they were very lucky because they had not planned for that route and the weather (a factor they look as though the ignored) was not in their favour. It's easy enough for people to lose their lives doing this sort of thing planned, adding a 'hell, let's do it even though we have no idea what we are getting ourselves into' streak defines 'foolhardy' - and more of those guys die every year than those who plan correctly.
Just because this jaunt worked out OK does not mean it should be encouraged. I'll bet the group were not carrying bivvi gear and if one of them had got seriously hurt, he could have frozen to death before help arrived (and that's assuming they were carrying a med kit).
It's not about 'the nanny state' - it's about risking the lives of seasoned professionals who would have to turn out and save your sorry @rse in dangerous and less than optimal conditions if the whole thing had gone t1ts up through bad/no planning. I bet they were drinking the night before as well
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| I'll bet the group were not carrying bivvi gear and if one of them had got seriously hurt, he could have frozen to death before help arrived (and that's assuming they were carrying a med kit). |
I bet they carry both!
What are you basing your bet on? That they use piste map as navigation aid? Or that they carry ropes and knows how to rig up anchor system for abseiling?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1.) the fact that they planned and packed for a 200m descent to a glacier, not a 2000m rock descent
2.) the fact that that they do not seem to be able to keep spacing on some pretty dangerous terrain - the number of times the uphill skier nearly takes out the downhill skier through lack of control is astounding.
3.) the lack of sense re: the weather (they acknowledge the bad nature of it at the beginning) - the following day was clear on the vid. Going into that type of terrian in a limited visibility is asking for trouble c.f the huge rock one of them cannot see and hits (and that also applies to the route they did not take).
4.) At least once the guy who seems to know the climbing route is skiing at the rear and has to haul back the front skiers so that they do not ski over the fixed line - if he knows the route he should be at the front, not shouting 'too late' info from the rear.
5.) They say they made a mistake and acknowledge that it easily could have gone very, very wrong.
6.) At least one of the packs had just a rope in it.
7.) Can't see any transceivers
8.) The mini avalance they start
9.) at the end the one but last skier is only holding one pole so I assume they lost kit on the way down (which is not surprising giving that they were throwing stuff to a guy on a rock face at one point (rule two - never throw, always pass and check secure before release)).
Bottom line - respect their rather schizo comment (if you are not trying to do so, why post the vid?) and don't 'big it up' - it was a bad cock up that they just happened to be minimally equipped for. Look - I'm very happy they had the jaunt and got off safe, I just don't want less capable people thinking they can get away with it, especially as it's evident these guys were more than lucky on the evidence of the vid - I hate to think what they left out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| 1.) the fact that they planned and packed for a 200m descent to a glacier, not a 2000m rock descent |
If I were packing for a 200m descend to a glacier, I'd pack an avi kit in addition to ropes, and wouldn't go out on a high avi risk day.
(I've never skied on glacier and wouldn't know what must be included in a kit. But they've packed ropes, presumably for glacier rescue so why would they leave out transceiver?)
| Quote: |
2.) the fact that that they do not seem to be able to keep spacing on some pretty dangerous terrain - the number of times the uphill skier nearly takes out the downhill skier through lack of control is astounding.
|
Agree there. They also seems to stand randomly at each pitch, not necessarily at a safe point.
| Quote: |
| 4.) At least once the guy who seems to know the climbing route is skiing at the rear and has to haul back the front skiers so that they do not ski over the fixed line - if he knows the route he should be at the front, not shouting 'too late' info from the rear. |
Don't think anyone knows the climbing route. From the vid, they've only been on the "other" route which they've missed.
| Quote: |
| it's evident these guys were more than lucky on the evidence of the vid - I hate to think what they left out. |
But we don't know what they left out. It could very well be those were the "exciting bits" and they edited out the boring part.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
Don't think anyone knows the climbing route. From the vid, they've only been on the "other" route which they've missed.
|
at one point it states that one of them climbed (i.e.: up not down) 'it' - in the summer - 10 years ago - whilst he was at school. He's the experienced guide .... I'm not sure what route they are referring to at that point but I assumed it was the one they were on from the context and the fact that the guy wearing one of the GoPro's is shouting info to the others about snow buried fixed climbing cables just before they kill themselves tripping over them.
| Quote: |
But we don't know what they left out. It could very well be those were the "exciting bits" and they edited out the boring part.
|
it's not that so much - it's what was occurring 'off camera', the few 'we just missed that crevasse moments' that happened to those not wearing GoPro's or in sight of someone who was.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RattytheSnowRat, the commentary makes it clear the route they intended to ski was the one that had been climbed and they missed it by going too far right. Who knows what the conversation about the cables is about there isn't enough context to even know if they are part of the via ferrata or something else. Which is the main problem with your general assessment, it contains a load of unjustified assumption. For example points 6 and 7 are the most obvious.
The guy who skis into the rock very obviously does so because he gets caught on a rock under the snow just before it. Just watch his legs and you can see it happen and subsequently the rock appear.
I dunno how much mountaineering experience everyone posting has but Google 'mountaineering epics' and you'll get loads of similar stories where things go wrong, it gets a bit grim and everyone comes out more or less in one piece. Clearly they were competent enough to find and decend a technical route in low-vis. Falling off the top of the via ferrata was very heart in mouth but it's one of those things, he could have died but didn't, could have been mitigated but again we don't know the context well enough to actually sit in judgement.
The take away is obvious, don't ski down routes you don't know in visibility where you can't navigate it easily. Lots of the familiar human factors everyone should know about decision making in avi terrain apply and are the obvious cause of this little epic. Their planning was relatively okay given they had already abandoned their main objective to ski something 'easier'. I can imagine similar happening through no fault of their own if the weather really closed in once they were committed. As it was they made a mistake and got through the consequences with only a couple of dodgy moments.
I wouldn't fault them for losing/breaking/'using for x' a pole or imaginary things you think happened off camera.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| meh wrote: |
| I dunno how much mountaineering experience everyone posting has but Google 'mountaineering epics' and you'll get loads of similar stories where things go wrong, it gets a bit grim and everyone comes out more or less in one piece. Clearly they were competent enough to find and decend a technical route in low-vis. |
I'm no mountaineer. Still, as any wilderness traveler soon learn, nature is unpredictable (a recent rock fall might have bloced the planned route, fixed cable might have a broken section etc).
That is quite unlike what most people's idea of off-piste skiing following a guide, who took on the job (and earn his keep) in making the day as predictable as possible.
A large part of wilderness travel, summer or winter, focus mostly on managing such unpredictable! Planning is more to ensure there's sufficient margin in skills and gear to cover unpredictables, rather than a text book execution of a planned route.
| Quote: |
| Their planning was relatively okay given they had already abandoned their main objective to ski something 'easier'. I can imagine similar happening through no fault of their own if the weather really closed in once they were committed. As it was they made a mistake and got through the consequences with only a couple of dodgy moments. |
Humans are not perfect. They made a mistake. But they managed the consequence of their mistake well within their capability margin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
abc, yup! On the loosing kit front, I left an entire ice axe behind at a stop on top of a mountain up north last season. That's quite costly and embarrassing. The nearest we came to killing someone last year was descending a scree field when one of the party knocked a sizeable rock down slope and it wacked hard into a friends rucksack inches from breaking an arm or killing him outright by smacking him in the head. He was for most cases out of the firing line but I've now got a new found respect for the potential for rock bounces to go in very unexpected directions, in this case upwards and pretty much round a corner!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
you'll get loads of similar stories where things go wrong, it gets a bit grim and everyone comes out more or less in one piece.
|
that's because you only get such stories from survivors. The dead or terminally injured stay surprisingly quiet and the really bad cock-ups aren't advertised by the prerpetrators .
| Quote: |
The guy who skis into the rock very obviously does so because he gets caught on a rock under the snow just before it. Just watch his legs and you can see it happen and subsequently the rock appear.
|
disagree - what he's done is ski into the sloped base of the rock which is covered in snow - and he's skiing towards it in the first place. When he finally reacts, it's to fall over backwards as fast as possible to prevent planting his face in rock. I still think he would not have done that if he could see it properly.
You know as well as I that you check the weather before heading out in to the back country and don't go if it's dodgy. They either did not check or ignored the forecast and it's the lack of visibility that puts them in danger initially. Are you still saying you would hold the same views if the 'iron road' diver and his rock butting mate were both paraplegic, regardless of their rather basic abseiling skills?? You are judging by results on limited info - that's like bigging up the winner of a Russian Roulette session. They started a route that they clearly did not know well, without a guide, in an area they knew to have dangerous terrian, when the weather was ALREADY bad - see the start of the vid, they acknowledge this. The take away is obvious (it's a pizza) - 6P's every time. There's an acceptable level of risk in the mountains/wild and there's flirting with the reaper - I don't think it's an issue which side of the balance these guys were on.
People eulogise Capt Scott and use the phrase 'intrepid'. Amundsen got there first and survived by doing what he had to do and with careful, tested, planning. Scott took a number of punts and killed himself and his companions. Very 'noble', very dead. Guess who I 'eulogise'?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
