 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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How can a few large fridge/freezers ever be worth £580m? (or even £110m for that matter)
Anyway, a spokesman for snowHeads said "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..."
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Since its formation in the year 2000, X-Leisure has been run by the illustrious P-Y Gerbeau (one-time chief executive of the Millennium Dome at Greenwich).
On an edition of the BBC's 'The Daily Politics Show' Gerbeau revealed that he had been suspended from the French Olympic Organisation because he supported London's successful bid for the 2012 Olympic Games.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 4-12-12 13:48; edited 1 time in total
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Looks more like KY Gerbil.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Wikipedia wrote: |
| Appearing on the BBC's Question Time on 28 May 2009, Gerbeau declared that he would live in Britain for the rest of his life, jokingly describing France as "a communist country." |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Yves_Gerbeau
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
How can a few large fridge/freezers ever be worth £580m? (or even £110m for that matter)
" |
Probably the Xscape property portfolio includes all the associated cinemas, shops, restaurants etc which is where they actually make the money, the indoor snow slope is just an "attraction" to get people come to the entertainment complex.
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Wonder if they can raise from the ashes the interest in the indoor slope for Sunderland, would have been great to see it build for us Northerners and kids.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Looks more like KY Gerbil. |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| Probably the Xscape property portfolio includes all the associated cinemas, shops, restaurants etc . |
Alastair Pink, Air Kix indoor skydiving wind tunnel at MK isn't, it's now owned by SKyVenture, and the one at Chill Factore in Manchester.
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marskey, yes it would be good, but I doubt the business plan ever added up
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
which is where they actually make the money, the indoor snow slope is just an "attraction" to get people come to the entertainment complex.
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do you know that or are you speculating?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, That's what I heard/read somewhere else, so ......... yes, speculation. This is Snowheads after all. 
So in the interests of accuracy I should have said "...which I've heard is where they actually make the money.."
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 4-12-12 20:05; edited 1 time in total
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skimottaret, I would have thought that rental income from shops, restaurants, etc would be far more profitable than any income generated from the snow slopes.
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You know it makes sense.
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A quick search shows this reference to Xscape's business model at startup, including some words from P Y Gerbeau
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Alastair Pink, read your link , where does it say the business model is just an attraction to get people to come to the complex ? 
Spyderman, again an I would have thought , do you think Hemel for instance is sustained by the huge profits generated from floor space rental to S&R, a car wash and a foreign exchange bureau ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
Alastair Pink, read your link , where does it say the business model is just an attraction to get people to come to the complex ?
Spyderman, again an I would have thought , do you think Hemel for instance is sustained by the huge profits generated from floor space rental to S&R, a car wash and a foreign exchange bureau ? |
Well it does say "Xscape's pioneering brand answers the sophisticated taste and time pressures of today's consumer. The concept combines high-energy urban sports and entertainment with lifestyle brands, bars, cafés and exciting attractions (my italics), including Europe's biggest indoor "real" snow ski slope", so it is saying that the approach is directed towards the "consumer", that the lifestyle brands, bars and cafés are a major part of the business concept and describing the snow slope as an "attraction", which of course it undoubtedly is. Quite what the fractional breakdown between the income from the snow slope and the rental income from the rest of the consumer facilities of cinema,bars,cafés and retail shops etc I do not know, but it does seem to be saying that these other consumer facilities are an integral part of their business model. It's noteworthy that Chilfactore has a similar approach of having a pub, restaurants,cafés and sports retail shops as part of the development. I agree Hemel is a bit different in that it was an existing ski slope and the other retail activities there must be a lot less significant.
Please don't get the idea I'm anti indoor snow domes, quite the contrary, I was just wanting to comment on the fact that Xscape's approach in particular seems to major on the associated entertainment and retail developments.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, Regarding Hemel, the car wash to my thinking is taking valuable car parking space and shouldn't be there, income has to be negligible. Foreign exchange is just another service again with negligible income. Snow & Rock undoubtably are key to the profitability of the Snowcentre, it would certainly be running at a loss without the rental income.
Xscape MK cost I believe £67m to build, three times that of Hemel, certainly not a figure that could be supported by just a snow slope. If indoor snow slopes were so profitable why aren't they being built everywhere? Indoor snow is only viable with other profit making enterprises on the same site.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Spyderman, you must be the only ski instructor in the world with a business brain. I like your logic there.
They used to say that if you put 100 antique dealers in a room they all make a profit. If you put 100 ski instructors in a snowdome, I wonder what happens?
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They already sold the Braehead Snowzone last year and what a difference already in the place, not saying its perfect yet, but much much better than under the previous management 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The most massive and expensive snowdome in the world ...
with its two detachable quad chairlifts and travelator ...
... became Tokyo IKEA. So I guess the value of the land, and potential permission to convert it to more profitable use, has a lot to do with the value of snowdomes. It's a pity Ikea didn't like the chairlifts.
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| Quote: |
Snow & Rock undoubtably are key to the profitability of the Snowcentre, it would certainly be running at a loss without the rental income.
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and you know that or you are just speculating? I havent looked at the accounts of the snow centre but I would SPECULATE that it turns over at least £5M and makes a good operating profit, do you really believe the ground rent on a single smallish store is the key to the centres profitability and without it they would be broke?
Beanie1 has expertise in this area and perhaps she will come along and give us some real facts and figures.
Alastair Pink, not having a go at you I just dont like it when rumour and hearsay is spread around regarding peoples livelyhoods. This whole idea that snow domes only exist as "loss leaders" to pull people into bars shops and cafes is just not true, they make a solid operating profit if correctly managed. Investors wouldnt pour 10's of millions of capital into them it they didnt...
over and out on this as I am too busy skiing powder in Tignes !!
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skimottaret, Enjoy the snow! 
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Alastair Pink, will do it has been epic here , cant say I am looking forward to coming home in 10 days to work in a freezer 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Quote: |
Snow & Rock undoubtably are key to the profitability of the Snowcentre, it would certainly be running at a loss without the rental income.
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and you know that or you are just speculating? I havent looked at the accounts of the snow centre but I would SPECULATE that it turns over at least £5M and makes a good operating profit, do you really believe the ground rent on a single smallish store is the key to the centres profitability and without it they would be broke?
Beanie1 has expertise in this area and perhaps she will come along and give us some real facts and figures.
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£5M, sounds like a lot of turn over for a snow centre, I wouldn't disagree with using that as a figure.
Now look at the £23M to build it in the first place, how much to service that borrowing per annum?
Now look at the expenditures:
Electricity bill is approx £250k per annum
Salaries
Rates
Insurance
Equipment
Catering and bar costs
Advertising
Stationary
Utility bills
The list goes on, doesn't leave a lot of the £5M left I suspect.
The cost of servicing the initial £23M must be enormous.
Income from the retail unit I suspect is around £ 100,000 per annum, that figure is crucial to the sites profitability in my view.
Now take it to the OP which was about MK, Hemel is busier than MK so I'd expect the taking to be lower at MK, but just for parity lets assume it's the same £5M. Now let's add in the fact of a much larger site with the naturally larger rates bill and the fact that the place took not £23M to build, but £67M.
Now please tell me that snow centres are not reliant on rental income from retail and other attractions on site.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
skimottaret, That's what I heard/read somewhere else, so ......... yes, speculation. This is Snowheads after all.
So in the interests of accuracy I should have said "...which I've heard is where they actually make the money.." |
Judging by the ammount of kids hanging around xscape in castleford I doubt that's where the cash is coming from.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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last time I looked at the accounts for Tamworth group they were making a good profit, and my understanding is that Landgraaf tkae over E20 million per year, enough to have built Bottrop and now they are building another dome in Holland, guess they cant all be loss makers!! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Spyderman, a quick look at some accounts shows the Snow centre over the last two years turning over 5.2 and 5.5 M, with operating profits of 762k and 1.3M. They have a mix of equity and loan stock that has interest costs associated decreasing net profit but underlying GP is sound. they are still in business three years later
I could look up Tamworth, another non retail biased snowdome site but going by what iskar, says they turn a good operating profit as well. so sorry but your noddy fag packet maths just dont stack up.
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Am I missing something? I didn't see Alistair say they're a loss leader, just said they're an attraction to draw people in. He was answering the question of "how can a few fridges be worth £580m".
Surely the primary business of them is as a landlord and a property owner. £580m is likely to mostly be the value of their assets and their tenancies/contracts. Owning and operating the ski slope will be part of this £580m, but will only be a small percentage compared to assets and tenancies.
Xscape MK seems hugely successful. Not many are blown away by the ski facilities (as a recent visitor to Landgraaf I'm certainly not, and over here I prefer Hemel to ski), but look at the range and number of businesses working out of Xscape you can't fail to be impressed. Virgin gym, cinema, bowling alley (closed at moment though!), bars, nightclub, restaurants, cafés, fast food joints, clothes shops, sports shops, newsagent stand, pancake dude, airkix........ These are always busy at weekend's and are usually pretty busy when I've wandered in on a random weekday lunchtime (I work only 5 mins from Xscape).
It's like a mini Westfield.
The business model between Xscape and Hemel aren't even comparable
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