 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi All,
New to this forum, and thought I'd tap the rich vein of experience which seems to be available, to try to clear up some issues which i'm a little confused about.
I'm shopping for new ski's for this season, and have been reading this, some Italian, and the EpicSki forums for the last year or so. My skiing is mainly done in Italy, on-piste and occasionally off piste when conditions permit. Based on what I've read, I've narrowed down my choices to Atomics Metron B5 in 162cm, Volkl AC4 in 170cm and Head Monster iM77 in 170cm but am begining to have some doubts regarding their suitability to european conditions. These seem to be very popular skis in the US, but not in europe and I am wondering if this is due to europeans being more conservative or rather due to the conditions being less appropriate for this type of ski? Please note that these assumptions are based not only on reading the various forums, but on "real" observations - I didn't see a pair of Metrons being skied all season last year in Italy, and very few ski shops that i spoke to in Italy or Switzerland even carried this style (mid fat all mountain) ski.
Opinions?
redline
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hi redline, and welcome to snowHeads, As far as I can work out, the US tends to get more deep powder than Europe, has narrower pistes, and more tree skiing, Europe tends to get longer pistes that in general are also wider, however there are a number of people with far greater knowledge than myself on this subject that I'm sure will answer your question in the next day or two
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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redline,
Welcome to Snowheads
Regarding the skis there are plenty of advocates for the B5 on this forum but you are right, I never saw one in a hire shop all year in the alpes. I tried the Monster75 and it was good but it was totally outclassed by the XL in every area, which I replaced it with in my affections..!! For the Alpes you need a ski to deal with ice which I would expect a Volkl to be able to do.
Even at a major UK ski show the b5 featured in 1 shop only which I think is in part down to the fact that Euroland hasn't really embraced the shape of the ski. I fully intend to try them if I can find them just to get them out of my system but I already have a benchmark ski so it will have to be damn good...!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Personally I don' t think you can qualify a ski into e.u. or u.s. I believe there was reference earlier to there having been limited numbers of Metron B5s in europe last year as the americans hogged them. Certainly I saw them in volume in Morzine (France).
I'm surprised at the reaction from the shops as I think the B5 is the spiritual successor to the Salomon Xcream which became endemic in Europe. Also, my understanding was that the US was/has been slower than europe to adopt shorter shaped skis in general.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hi All,
Thanks guys for the feedback so far. I'm puzzled because i know of a few shops in italy that were unable to shift the B5's and the iM75 last year. They have not ordered them this year. Similarly Snow&Rock will not be selling the B5 this year (wasn't given a reason). I agree with David that ski's shouldn't be pigeon-holed as US or EU, but i can't explain why the uptake on this style of ski 'seems' to be slower on this side of the pond. I assume that within europe france and austria are home to the most progressive skiers who are quicker to adopt new materials, and i'll be interested to see what people have on their feet, and what the shops are pushing when the season starts.
redline
PS - has anyone on this forum skied the AC4 or iM77 yet?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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redline, Welcome to snowHeads.
I've replied to your post on Epic.
Buy the b5's - they're simply awesome.
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redline, in terms of the type of snow there can be a huge difference. For example a lot of north east snow is "lake effect" snow (or man made when there is no natural stuff!), where as the west coast and europe is water taken from the sea. This results in a different type of snow as i guess some people can tell the difference or think they can - to me though when it's white then that's fun, as soon as it stops being white it's no fun (yellow  , brown, grey, black etc)..............simple it's either white or it's not!
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Hi Dan,
You're right - we can't be picky - as long as its white its ski-able!
However, as is being discussed on same thread on the EpicSki forum, we tend to experience a variety of snow conditions in european resorts. Personally, my skiing suffers disproportionately as conditions degrade from perfectly groomed. I don't think that the racing-derived skis (or pseudo-race ...) so popular in europe are the best choice for skiing a variety of conditions. Sure, they are ski-able, but i want to maximize my enjoyment in all or any conditions. From what i've read, the ski's listed are good all-mountain (all condition?) ski's with maximum versatility, hence my question - why are these not particularly popular in europe, where probably more so than the US we experience a diversity of conditions?
redline
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Depends what you mean by Europe. Does that include Scotland, Scandinavia, southern Spain and eastern Europe, or just the Alps? Across the whole North American continent there is certainly more variety of conditions than in the Alps. In general, on the East Coast it's mainly firm, man-made snow (often ice), in the Rockies in the middle of the continent it's light, dry powder, and on the West Coast (Sierra Nevada, Cascades, BC's Coastal Range) it's more compact, wetter powder. (But I have occasionally skied light dry powder in Vermont, and slush or ice in Colorado, so you can't always generalise.)
North Americans tend to differentiate between "Eastern skis" (narrower) and "Western skis" (wider). The Canadian magazine Skipress even goes as far as to test the thinner skis on the East Coast and the wider skis on the West Coast.
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Hmmm - point taken. I was actually refering to variability of conditions at a particular location, predominantly in alpine resorts where one may be skiing off-piste high up, well groomed hardpack and slush all on the same day...
redline
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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redline,
One ski? Stormrider..!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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redline, good point. Certainly in Colorado or Utah, the resorts are much higher than villages in the Alps so you don't get the same slush on the runs home, although it does occur in late March or April. At least one exception: Whistler, where the village is low altitude - so it can have great snow up top and slush lower down.
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You know it makes sense.
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redline,
the other thing about America is because so many people have a car parked at the lift station, the "quiver" idea makes more sense - if you have 3 pairs on the car, do you need a mid fat?
I'm a little surprised that you say mid-fat type allrounders are not popular in Europe - surely Salomon X-screams and Atomic R9s were very popular and that have been superceded by similar concepts.
As JT says the Stormrider is the true do anything ski. I believe it IS race-derived in terms of construction and side-cut, just a bit fatter.
J
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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spyderjon,
I make that 2-1, 
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Poster: A snowHead
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The controversy concerning the best width of modern skis for both on-piste and off-piste use centers on which is the most versatile in all conditions.
There is little question concerning the best ski for hard-pack, a ski with a waist dimension of 70mm or less will always be considered superior for firm snow. A narrow ski will change edge more quickly and be torsionally more rigid resulting in better edge-grip on ice.
Wider skis allow more adventuresome skiing in very difficult off-piste terrain. Skiers who thrive in these conditions will not accept a narrow ski, even for on-piste skiing. Modern materials and design are overcoming hard snow grip issues allowing better all-around performance from wider skis.
The weight of the skier is a determining factor in preference. Float in bottomless snow is a function of the skiers weight, the running surface of the ski and the density of the snow.
American skiers not only ski lighter snow at higher altitudes, they also tend to be heavier athletes. A 200 Lbs powder skier has the same amount of float from a 97mm wide ski as a 140 lbs has from a 70mm ski.
PhysicsMan provided the following data and discussion.
"Lets assume that there is some validity to the oft-heard claim that mid-80's skis are the best thing since sliced bread for average weight guys (say, 175 lbs) in soft snow. Then, one can estimate the width of a ski that would give the same amount of float to a skier of a different weight. Here's a table that does this:
(lbs)..(mm)
100.....49
120.....58
140.....68
160.....78
180.....87
200.....97
220....107
240....117
260....126
Thus, if you are a little slip of a 120 lb woman, you will have the exact same float on a 58 mm wide pair of skinny boards that Mr. Average Guy (at 175 lbs.) has on his 85 mm "lite-fat" skis.
Basically, on any sub-70 mm ski currently being sold (because they are all greater than 60 mm), Ms. 120 Pounder will sink in less than Mr. Average Guy on his Rex's, so its to be expected that a light weight person might not fully appreciate the need for fatties (at least from direct personal experience).
At the other end of the spectrum, at 210 lbs, I will need to be on 100 - 105 mm boards to achieve the same float as Mr. Average Guy on his sticks.
Bottom line - guys, especially big guys, have a valid point in wanting to be on wide skis in soft snow. And, to head off any comments, yes, we have all skied powder in 207 cm long, 64 mm straight sticks from the past, so fatties are not absolutely required, but sure are fun and make marginal snow much easier."
What is the most versatile on-piste and off-piste ski? It depends on the factors of skier weight, and consistency of the snow. A heavy skier in light snow should not assume that his fat ski is required universally. A lighter skier who can ski all conditions on a 70mm wide ski should not assume that wide skis are excessive for all users.
Hope that helps,
Barrettscv
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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so instead of buying a fatter ski, loose some f***ing weight! loosing20 lbs ~ 9 kg will make your B2 float like Karma! One thing bothers me: will a heavier skier have the same edge hold on piste on his fatties as the skinny guy on his skinny skis?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Barrettscv, are we assuming a simple linear relationship? I would have intuited not... and can you have a relationship between avoirdupois pounds and metric mils? 
I would have thought that the surface area of the ski would be the important factor - hence the apparent floatability of Metron B5s with fairly narrow waist and accentuated tip & tail. So waist dimension less relevant
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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David Murdoch, that correspondence was computed using surface area, holding sidecut radius and length the same for all skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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comprex, ooops, sorry!
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Barrettscv,
'heavier althletes'?
just say fatter, we know what you mean.
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