looking for some general feed back on what to do next regarding up grading my back pack. For the last 6 years I have skied with a BlackDiamond Avalung bag which in its day was as good as anything else with the added bonus of having that snorkel on board incase I got buried ! ( never had to use it )
As we are now skiing more and more out the back and venturing of with guides I am extremely interested in these bags:
Now my main point is do I spend £700-ish on an airbag system or go for lighter weight and a lot less cost ? Do I take a risk on no air bag back up or do I go for a good sound light off piste bag ?
My mates, none of whom have airbags, have all said "don't waste your money on an airbag" but I have had that nagging thought every time we've been in a riskier environment that an airbag system would give me better peice of mind etc. However they are considerably heavier and as I have spent the last 4 seasons changing my whole set up to be lighter and lighter ( even myself by dieting pre season !) the weight factor of an airbag is what's really the spanner in the works !
So what I would appreciate from the learned ski fraternity are some well considered thoughts on the what to do next !
Look forward to the comments
Chris
[/size]
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
What about ABS?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Just few thoughts on the bags you are talking about.
The Snowpulse Guide 30 is a good size day pack, enough space for overnight huts as well. It has compression straps so can be thinned down for lift based stuff.
BCA Float 30, is last seasons bag, its now the BCA Float 32, very nice light bag for an airbag, the big however still on BCA is the cylinder is to big to fly with full.
Scott RAS Not tried this but is essentially the same as the Mammut RAS bags, which have the option to take the airbag section out.
Ortovox Haute Route, is really a touring style bag and the shape makes it uncomfortable on lift based stuff.
Its well worth looking at the Ortovox Freeride bags, the 26 gives as much room if not more than a 30 L airbag plus has the benefit of spine protection and fits close so good on lifts, never had to take mine off yet.
The lightest airbag around is the Snowpulse light 35, it compresses down as well and gives extra storage space, this weighs in at only 1.85kg without the cylinder.
I'd say get an airbag, in my view it's aim is to get you to the surface in an avalanche which has got to be a good thing in a bad situation!!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
chrisedwardsski, Forgot to mention above - re the size, if you are taking harness/ ropes etc you'll need 30L, but for normal lift served Freeride I'd suggest 15L max, you can get all you need for a proper day out (don't want to open the debate re what it holds) but still can go on/off lifts without taking it off which is a PITA. I just upgraded from a ABS Freeride sack, great bag - to a ABS Powder with a zip on/off 5L and 15L, depending on my plans for the day. It'll take all I need including skins and ski crampons, shovel/ probe, DSLR, water etc.
The thing I like about ABS is the lightness with the carbon canister upgrade (well worth the extra cost), in fairness I've never researched any other brands I'm so happy with ABS.
I haven't got an ABS Bag but one factor you may wish to consider is compressed air or nitrogen?
The former can usually be filled easily/cheaply at a dive shop whereas nitrogen has to be sent away for refilling. Air cylinders are heavier because they have pressure gauges.
What if the nitrogen filled bag ruptures under the snow. Could that suffocate you because the N reduces the O2 in the air around you?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
welshflyer,
Quote:
The former can usually be filled easily/cheaply at a dive shop whereas nitrogen has to be sent away for refilling
This is sort of true, but only for the BCA style cylinders, the older Snowpulse cylinder was air but a special attachment was required to fill at a dive shop.
On both the ABS and Snowpulse cylinders its is easy to exchange cylinders in resorts, in fact Mammut retailers now carry swap over and rental cylinders.
Quote:
What if the nitrogen filled bag ruptures under the snow. Could that suffocate you because the N reduces the O2 in the air around you?
This is not the case, the airbags inflate with both nitrogen and air, all bags have a venturi system which drags air into the airbags, so there is not a significant increase in nitrogen, in fact air contain 78% nitrogen!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Expensive, but if you're going for an airbag, the difference between £700 and £800 isn't a big deal, I don't think.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I have the ABS vario model (2007). Essentially you have to purchase the vario base unit and canister first; this is the 'airbag' part. To this you can attach a variety of bags that range from 15 to 50L. The 15L is a great day pack that accommodates all essential gear and is small enough to take on chairlifts without having to take it off. I will tell you how great the 50L bag is after my first hut to hut tour in April
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
ps i have taken it on european flights with various airlines without any problems.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
My mates, none of whom have airbags, have all said "don't waste your money on an airbag" but I have had that nagging thought every time we've been in a riskier environment that an airbag system would give me better peice of mind etc.
If you do get one, don't let it change your thinking and decision making. Those nagging thoughts are good.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I'd really consider £700 worth of training and whatever generic 30L bag floats your boat.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
DaveC, would you buy a car without airbags and spend money on driver training instead??
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
kitenski, that analogy is awful.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
.......i can see another debate brewing...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
There's no debate that ABS packs give you a better chance of surviving an avalanche if caught, but in pound for pound effectiveness I'm not convinced, and they do nothing about you killing your poorer friends/peers (hey look I can do point scoring hyperbole too!).
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Is there actually a difference between 'resort based off piste' and 'sidecountry' for anyone who isn't marketing ski equipment?
For less than the price of an airbag, you could spend a long weekend in Chamonix and do an AIARE level 1 course. Just a thought.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DaveC, Serriadh, no doubt for £700 you arm yourself with the knowledge/awareness, but i am not sure if that translates to survival benefit. For that you will also need experience and that will set you back £months/years.
[size=18]Thank you SnowHeads it's always good to get the advice from folk that have experience. I gauge that it's better to have one than not however I feel I will have to physically go to shops, look, feel, put on and try, taking a punt on an internet purchase may be a costly mistake. Very interested to note several of you claim 15 ltr is enough for local off piste even for that I've always found my Avalung 22 to small sometimes for my kit.
Livetoski
The lightest airbag around is the Snowpulse light 35, it compresses down as well and gives extra storage space, this weighs in at only 1.85kg without the cylinder.[quote]
This bag does sound interesting given you say it compresses down and is, as they claim, the lightest bag around. I guess you don't have to fill it on resort based days and therefor shouldn't be an issue on lifts etc. If that is the case it offers great versatility. So to do the ABS with options on sack size.
We're off to Chamonix December 10th and just know there are plenty of stores out there that sell all brands but my feeling is the Snowpulse light 35
flangesax, yes, and I've taken skiing lessons as well.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
PP wrote:
DaveC, Serriadh, no doubt for £700 you arm yourself with the knowledge/awareness, but i am not sure if that translates to survival benefit.
Airbags are no panacea either, and prevention is generally preferable to cure. Your partners will also benefit from you being a little wiser about avalanches, by way of a bonus.
PP wrote:
For that you will also need experience and that will set you back £months/years.
The bulk of the cost will be in the travel and skiing that you will be doing anyway. The incremental cost of training is small.
After all it is free
After all it is free
The Paradiski piste patrollers had ABS bags last season and the season before. Good enough recommendation for me.
Heres a video of my next door neighbour pulling his and surviving
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
three things in life cause avalanches
ignorance
arrogance
stupidity
oh yes and snow!
and before anyone goes off on one, i have lost enough friends in avalanches to comment on this
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Interesting debate this on what's best to spend the money on, knowledge or airbag. From my reading of the literature it's by no means certain that increased knowlege decreases risk behaviour (e.g. google and read The Role of Training in Recreational Avalanche Accidents in the United States, Ian McCammon). There appears to be a complex interplay between knowledge and the decision to expose oneself to hazard. On the other hand, there's good evidence for the effectiveness of airbags- see my recent blog on this issue: http://www.gravityprotection.co.uk/blog/avalanche-airbag-effectiveness.html
For what its worth, it seems fairly clear that airbags are more effective at reducing mortality than transceivers, the benefit of which in companion rescue (rather than professional rescue) is relatively small (not that I'm in any way suggesting they shouldn't be worn- I think we have a personal responsibility and moral responsibility to our companions to do so). I think I'll do a blog on the data on that quite soon.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
p.s. at least some airbag rucksacks are coming in at under £600 now- e.g. the float 22 plus cylinder would come in at under £570 (and you might even get a 10% snowheads discount )
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
spot the advert above ^^^^^ got to love it
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
CEM, not really, just think it's helpful to point out the price is coming down. The blog is a serious and critical review of the available evidence. Have a read and tell me what you think.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
chrisedwardsski, I have a snowpluse 22l and it's fine for touring until I need a rope and/or regular crampons. I don't know for sure but you may get a better deal in the UK especially with the 10% off deals for snowheads on this page.
livetoski, and evski,
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
evski wrote:
The blog is a serious and critical review of the available evidence. Have a read and tell me what you think.
Is that... comics sans?
I vaguely recall reading more critical commentary on ABS's statistics elsewhere. This TGR thread has a few interesting comments. There's strong evidence that airbags help to a significant degree, but assume that ABS's numbers have a thick advertising gloss.
chrisedwardsski wrote:
Very interested to note several of you claim 15 ltr is enough for local off piste even for that I've always found my Avalung 22 to small sometimes for my kit.
Pack volume measurements are not necessarily comparable between manufacturers. All you really need is space for shovel, probe and skins; that's a pretty minimal load! Another relevant TGR post here suggests that you can squeeze a decent bit of gear into at least one company's 22l model.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Serriadh wrote:
Is that... comics sans?
Take your point, I think I'll change that!
Agree, ABS present their data in an interesting way.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
CEM wrote:
three things in life cause avalanches
ignorance
arrogance
stupidity
oh yes and snow!
and before anyone goes off on one, i have lost enough friends in avalanches to comment on this
And if all 3 things or even one trigger an ava by another party to yours, above or around you, which cause an avalanche, then I would be happier wearing an airbag rucksack than not.
Training yourself cannot prevent the stupidity of others, and yes I've seen 'race teams' all logo'd up coming tear arsing down a mountain following our tracks, and almost running over us as we were assessing the situation before setting off.....
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thanks guys and thank you evski for the link, the Float 32 does look and appear to tick many boxes it also represents exceptional value.
Also guys I didn't mention we do have a degree of mountain experience via courses and guided days regarding safety awareness but it is always great to see it being suggested and something I believe strongly in. The main point of the thread is the fathom : is it worth spending money on and if so which one.
Must admit the BCA float 32 is appealing am also curious to know what the Scott RAS will be like as they bill it as the lightest bag and lightness is what I'm leaning toward.
chrisedwardsski, thanks. Mammut are also doing a "light" bag, new this year. 1.8kg (without cartridge), 30l capacity. It's called the Light RAS Ready. You might also consider that. We don't have it just yet, but are just about to start stocking Mammut, so will probably get some in.
As livetoski mentioned, the caveat to the BCA bag is that strictly speaking the cylinder is slightly (about 40ml) larger than the current flying full limit. This might not cause a problem (in fact BCA's own flying instructions suggest it's not!!), but it's something to be aware of.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 12-11-12 15:47; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Here's the link to Mammut website that details the bag I mentioned:
BCA have just tweeted this link about flying with their airbags and full cylinders. They assert it's not a problem outside of N. America. You can see my question to them at the bottom of their post. You would guess they've taken informed advice on this before explicitely stating that their cylinders are OK to fly full.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thank you evski most helpful
After all it is free
After all it is free
evski, I popped a post over on the thread Flying with an Avi backpack, as I mentioned there the BCA article does not specifically say its OK to fly in Europe with a full Float cylinder.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Yes, I see what you mean, they don't mention the Float specifically in the blog, although they imply it's relevant to the Float. But in the Float FAQ they do suggest flying full in Europe is OK IF cleared with the carrier first. I think we really need clarification from BCA on this, hopefully they'll respond.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Posted this in the flying with airbags thread, but since it came up first here I've posted it on this thread too:
The new link is well worth a read and includes a copy of an IATA agenda item (on which has been written "agreed"!), which it seems contains the revised wording to be incorporated in the regulations from January 2013. The good news is that any reference to the size of cylinder is removed.
So hopefully this cylinder size issue should all be sorted from January 2013 and all bags currently on sale should be fine to fly full (except to or from North America, where they will still have to be discharged first, due to TSA rules).
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
)
