Funding - lets give British Snowsports a chance

A snowHead

There has been numerous chats on this forum about lack of funding for all who are involved in Snow Sports at international level. I have not seen the final figures from the 2012 Olympics but the medal ratio to investment does not offer a great return for many disciplines. I cannot see the argument for the lack of funding for our snow sport athletes based upon potential medal attainment when many of the 'summer' athletes get massive funding, but a non podium finish is deemed as OK.

Sports such as
Fencing
Judo
Table Tennis
Archery
Badminton
Handball
Weight Lifting
Sync Swimming
Volley Ball
Water Polo
Wrestling

Based upon web information , £38.5 million of funding was invested in these sports and we got pretty much 'diddly squat' back. Why not invest some of it in skiing , as many of these sports are not perceived as main stream, why not provide similar funding to our alpine athletes and parents who support them with their own money.

Is 'sync swimming' really a sport worth £3.3m is Archery worth £4.5m or Badminton worth £7.4m and return nothing.

Do our alpine , freestyle , cross country and skier cross guys not deserve more.....????

A snowHead

Scot_Ski, Well said!! Most of those summer Olympic sports only got the funding because we could put a home team in at the London games. Huge amounts of money was taken away from winter sports when London got the games so they have suffered since then.
Totally agree that all the snowsports deserve more funding. Over 1m people from UK go skiing every year. You can't say that about Handball or Water Polo or Fencing can you?

As the parent of our No1 Downhill/Super G racer who has been on the GB team for 11 years we have seen the funding cut for Alpine year on year until now when he has no funding at all from BSS and has to do raffles, fundraising days, car boot sales and sell all his old equipment just to able to compete for GB at World cup & World Champs.

The BOA has said that they will be cutting the total numbers going to the Sochi games in 2014 from around 50 in 2010 to probably a max of 30. Only those with medal potential or that can finish in the top 1/2 of the field or higher will stand a chance of being selected.

Freestyle has just recieved around £330k from UK Sports, but Cross Country, Skier X & Alpine all get nothing. The funding is all based on the Olympics & medal potential or past podiums.
Freestyle/Slopestyle has athletes in the top 20ish in the world so are deemed to be medal prospects, so are getting some funding. The others don't have world rankings that high so get no funding. It seems a pretty black & white case but it actually isn't.
When you look at the world ranking lists in each event you can see that our woman Freestyle skier is ranked 20th out of only 57 on the list. Top 30% maybe?
The best male Alpine skiers are ranked 68th in Slalom out of over 8000 on the list, and 141st in Downhill out of over 3500 - Slalom top 1% & DH top 4% much higher up the rankings. UK Sport do not look at this though so they set targets for the athletes that we as a Non Alpine nation will only probably ever achieve once in a lifetime - Alain Baxter.

We do have the athletes that can deliver some great results but unless they are given funding like the summer Olympic sports they will never be able to achieve it.

Just as a footnote - TJ Baldwin as a Junior was ranked in the top 20 in the world for both Super Combined & Super G. He would have been selected for every Alpine nations Junior speed team (DH & SG) including the Austrians. He would have been funded and given a programme into the Senior team.
What has happened here? No funding & No programme!

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Plugboy, totally agree with your comments and glad we are on the same page..really hope the newly formed BSS may move things forward , but what we need is conviction from the official bodies to get things in place, maybe not for TJ and Dougie , or my son's generation but maybe give the kids with talent in future years the support to realise their potential.

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You need to consider whether the performance level at the bottom of the lists is equal before comparing the size of the lists. To get down a slalom or even downhill course and get ranked requires far less than the minimum amount of training required to compete in aerials and get ranked for that.

Jensen Button is 6th in F1 rankings just now, but there's only 20 people on the list so he's not even in the top 25%. But when you consider the standard required to reach the bottom of the list, you can determine that he's not too bad at driving.

Back to freestyle skiing, and the World Cup win this season, and the funding over racing is justified as offering better chance of Olympic medals as you say.

The costs of obtaining medals in freestyle is lower than downhill particularly, since you can do more beneficial training with facilities such as snowdomes, on water ramps in sheffield, on trampolines etc, which you can't do so easily for downhill. This could either be used to argue for more funding for downhill as more expensive, or for freestyle as more cost effective. When I was competing, other nations spent more on racing than freestyle. Spending £300K on racing would give a British team with a budget of perhaps 3% of the big teams (based on £10M budget) and unlikely to produce many top results, whereas £300K on freestyle gives a team with a budget possibly 30% of the big teams (based on £1M budget) and able to get some success. Spending the money on freestyle would expect to give the better return on investment. The budget examples I've given are what I understood the USA teams to get around 2006 when I was competing.

Every time I've seen people give figures about rankings, they've always displayed them with a bias to support their own case. When I competed Snowsport GB came up with a system of allocating points based on percentage of world ranking list that gave racers about 95% of the budget. However when freestyle skiers earned enough points on that system to be entitled to about 25-30% of the budget the system was immediately scrapped by the racing dominated Snowsport GB board and performance director in favour of a new system that just said "freestyle gets nothing, racing gets 90% and snowboarding 10%" without any other justification.

There's always going to be people unhappy with how funding is split, and it swings in different directions at different times. It's hard competing with no funding and feeling like it's unfair...I spent 8 years competing World Cup in a team that had funding before and after my time, but none while I was in (for a couple of years Snowsport GB didn't even give me a jacket). I managed to get into the top 30 and still be denied a place at the Olympics, while ski racers who'd only done 1 World Cup and placed around 82nd out of 90-100 competitors were allowed to go.

So that's the arguments to balance the other posts. Personally I wish that there was adequate funding for all the Olympic events, but even with this not being possible, I'd still think that all Olympic events with serious competitors should receive something so that there is the possibility of developing to produce gradually better results and increased funding to follow. Only rewarding events that have produced results seems a bit backwards to me, since they are managing to achieve. There also needs to be a view that sports that aren't achieving might just be needing some investment and will never produce results without it. Within snowsports then giving a minimum (provided that there are athletes training and competing to a suitable level) of say £30K to racing, £30K to nordic, £30K to freestyle, and £30K to snowboarding, then the rest being allocated based on results & medal potential would be far better in my view. At least then each area has a chance to redevelop and build a program to earn more funding.

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simon_bates, I hear you but I bet that you did not learn to ski in this country and that's the crux of the problem - there really is no support base in this country because there is nowhere (other than Ski Sunday) in England to watch it. And the only people who are likely to give any kind of 'moral' backing are people who can afford to go skiing abroad (which unfortunately does not make for much of an argument about funding). Now that Scotland is planning to devolve I anticipate greater barriers to fund raising in the future. With a limited pot it's unlikely that much cash is going to go to sports that one cannot participate in without stepping on a train. Whatever else you say about the sports listed above they can all be done locally and kids can get involved to a greater or lesser degree. Those sports will always get the dosh.

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i think the original point was that 'minority' sports such as those listed got stupid amounts of money and no return!!! whereas skiing although a minority sport has a far greater following than say handball. Therefore its not a level 'playing field' so to speak.

Also factor in the money element from the winter olympics, and no i dont mean funding, think tv coverage and advertising slots, if a GB athlete is in an event the viewer numbers will be higher, therefore the 'sell' per second will be higher, if a GB athlete is doing well this amount will rise accordingly. This also covers the BOA in glory because more people are watching therefore they can apply for more funding etc etc etc. From a business case point of view the way the money is being spread around is a typical 'public sector' take on things and no real thought as to the overall economics of the thing.

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Plugboy, Totally agree with most of what you are saying but you are doing a great disservice to the British Freestyle team.

Yes the summer Olympics really messed up distribution of funding to sports as small sports that are not usually Olympic events for Team GB, ended up being allocated positions as the host nation and therefore requiring funding. Vollyball probably being the best example.

Woodsy has finished in the top 5 in the Dew tour for the last two years and topped the podium in the first world cup event this year and is a very strong medal contender for a slope style medal in Sochi.
The reasons the numbers are so low, in the freestyle is the set up and qualification system is very different to Alpine for example at the Olympics in 2014 it’s the top 30 ranked for Skier Cross and Slopestyle qualify that’s it, there is no B standard or exceptions just the top 30 and the home team athletes. Compare that to what is allowed for Alpine events?

I genuinely believe that Athletes who market themselves well can get the funding they deserve from outside Government sources sadly the time it takes to do this eats into more important training time.

After all it is free

Agree with Fattes13 - several of our freestyle skiers and snowboarders are in with genuine chances of podium places in 2014, with regular top 10 finishes in world class events. And more importantly, IMHO, the majority of the yound talent coming through the pipeline is also focused on the freestyle disciplines and, personally, I believe it's at this level that core funding needs to be concentrated.

The best male Alpine skiers are ranked 68th in Slalom out of over 8000 on the list, and 141st in Downhill out of over 3500

I think that says it all. 68th and 141st may be good relatively, but it's useless in absolute terms and will never result in a medal. Fattes13 has it spot on, in freestyle we do stand a chance of medals and the funding is worthwhile.
I feel for our Alpine athletes, but I totally understand it.

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I would like to see a set up like Snowworld in landgraaf placed in the middle of the country.

A National Centre of excellence.

The cyclists did it with Manchester and the National Lottery funding.

Anything technical could be done their...and speed camps set up abroad.

I would rather see money spent on something like that, where athletes could train on home soil, under the guidance of good coaches. It would be in the public eye and more businesses would be likely to put money into sponsering the Athletes.

I have my own theory though... I see Skiing in this country very similar to Tennis...I just don't trust the people running the organisations. Call me a cynic...

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spud, Oh a Snow world equivelant in the UK would be epic! Us Irish could piggy back off the back of it.

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Fattes13,

Ryanair.com !!!!!!!!!

You know it makes sense.

spud, While I agree a Landgraaf style super-fridge would be pretty awesome and encourage a grass-roots base, I doubt it'd improve the situation for the alpiners, beyond their first few steps into the sport.

IMHO, the focus of BSS should be getting proper agreements in place for elite British athletes to train alongside other, better equipped nations (Canada, or New Zealand, for example) and providing a sound support infrastructure would be a better solution and yield better results in honing champions.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

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On the basis of funding based on participation in the sport I'm disappointed that fishing does so poorly.

Personally I would rather see public funding spent on providing access to sports for all along the lines of 'Sport for All' campaign from a few years ago. One of the legacies of the London Olympics appears to have made sport funding much more elitist.

The element which every misses in the discussion regarding the funding of snowsports is the role of the FIS and the distribution of TV money to athletes. If a portion of the TV money was distributed to athletes or returned to the National governing bodies for athlete development the problem funding for up and coming athletes would be less of a problem.

The current rights were purchased by Eurosport and a related company. They plan 600 hours coverage for the FIS World Cup races per season:

http://www.sportbusiness.com/news/185107/eurosport-returns-to-the-piste-with-fis-rights-deal

So, where does the money go ?

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RattytheSnowRat, those who have Sky are often glued to Eurosport all winter - I certainly am
.spud, a national centre of excellence is an, ahem, excellent idea, especially as the smaller more affordable resorts in Europe become less snow sure.

After all it is free

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Not sure if anyone is interested on here but I'll post it anyway!

I am extremely pleased to announce that the Bentley House Musical evenings held last weekend were an enormous success. The very talented musicians, Pianist - Laszlo Poth, Singer - Georgina Kellen, Violinist - Anna Berieter and Singer Stefan Holstrom performed two outstanding concerts and entertained full capacity appreciative audiences on both nights receiving much deserved standing ovations!

Funds raised were in excess of £10,000.00 which is an amazing help for the GB Children's ski race team!
Very Happy

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Gillian, Great news for the BCST. Pity that BSS are not doing the same for the Senior Team funds!! Hopefully if we sell all the raffle tickets the Speed team will have £10K too.

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Plugboy, Just want you to know that the BSS had nothing to do with the fund raising and did not organise any part of the musical events. This idea was ours with others also offering their services!
Good Luck with your raffle.

Gillian, Well done, this is the kind of thing the sport needs more of success breeds success and that applies to fundraising to.

You know it makes sense.

Thank youFattes13, Don't know who you are but I believe this kind of idea is called 'thinking outside the box !'
wink

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A snowHead

A snowHead

Turns out the Freestyle funding is justified James Woodsy Woods has just been handed a full participationi invite to the 2013 X -Games!!!!

Huge News for British skiing.

Help!!

Funding - lets give British Snowsports a chance

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