 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello world.
I am about to take the winter off and spend December/January/February doing a BASI Gap course in Verbier. There will be an off-piste element to this plus it is likely that I will do some off piste skiing at the weekends. From early February, I will more or less be free to ski as I wish until the end of the season.
I was therefore wondering whether you guys think it makes sense to buy a Snow Pulse rather than hire on an ad hoc basis? I don't really know how much daily hire of these things are in resorts but I am fairly certain that I would prefer to have one of these badboys strapped on for all my off piste excursions - whether rented or otherwise. I would expect to be doing quite a bit of off piste stuff in February and March most probably and there is a chance that I may do future seasons or will be spending a good part of the next few years in the mountains.
I have had a look at the other avalanche bags and thing that the design of the Snow Pulse is probably the best. I like the size and look of the Heli 22 as I don't really see myself touring at this stage but would appreciate any thoughts or comments you have in relation to the other bags out there.
Also, I assume that it makes sense to buy a transceiver, shovel and probe?
Thanks in advance for your help!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pedalpusher wrote: |
| Also, I assume that it makes sense to buy a transceiver, shovel and probe? |
Yes, buy these before you get an airbag, it's not either/or. Imagine how cross your ski buddies will be if you are not equipped to locate and dig them out when you ski together...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Can't help with the Snow Pulse, but transceiver, shovel & probe are the first purchases you should make.
Then take an avalanche awareness course.
Then find partners to ski with.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Once everyone in a group has airbags the shovel probe and transceiver are obsolete? - just a thought.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| BertieG wrote: |
| Once everyone in a group has airbags the shovel probe and transceiver are obsolete? - just a thought. |
Um. no.. you're assuming the airbag was deployed and that it worked properly. Every piece of kit adds some additional level of "safety" but none negates any others
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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BertieG, no - no guarantee that people will successfully deploy their bag and the bleeper etc are just for finding members of your own crew
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Ok. Here's a scenario: 2 mates go off piste together and they have a budget of £500 to spend on safety gear. Would you buy the bleeper etc or would you buy an airbag? Purely selfishly the airbag is your best hope assuming you've done all the avalanche training. I wonder what the evidence from the market is; are airbags selling to people without the other kit?
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| BertieG wrote: |
| Purely selfishly the airbag is your best hope assuming you've done all the avalanche training. |
Purely selfishly, if the guy I'm skiing with doesn't have the knowledge and wherewithal to dig me out of an avalanche, I'm not going off touring with him.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| BertieG wrote: |
| Purely selfishly the airbag is your best hope assuming you've done all the avalanche training. I wonder what the evidence from the market is; are airbags selling to people without the other kit? |
If someone has done avy training and is thinking in terms of "purely selfishly" I don't want that prick anywhere near me. Tell me waht slopes he's skiing and I'll likely avoid them too.
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BertieG, in your scenario, mate with airbag fails to deploy it and get's buried, his mate has a transceiver, but he doesn't.................
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Serriadh, fatbob, +1
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| BertieG wrote: |
| Once everyone in a group has airbags the shovel probe and transceiver are obsolete? - just a thought. |
when youre stood at the top of the run and your mates just set off, and been buried nearby as he didnt deploy his bag in time ( which even if you did, doesnt help if you get avalanched over drops or into crevasses, deeper terrain traps),how would you suggest finding him. The false sense of security of these bags is dangerous in itself. Training and more training transceiver shovel probe and more training...... then bag.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 1-10-12 17:28; edited 1 time in total
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this is a sad read, but goes to show what the others are saying, bag without transceiver is madness IMHO
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You know it makes sense.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| this is a sad read, but goes to show what the others are saying, bag without transceiver is madness IMHO |
It is, sadly the chap concerned didn't survive.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| BertieG wrote: |
| Ok. Here's a scenario: 2 mates go off piste together and they have a budget of £500 to spend on safety gear. Would you buy the bleeper etc or would you buy an airbag? Purely selfishly the airbag is your best hope assuming you've done all the avalanche training. I wonder what the evidence from the market is; are airbags selling to people without the other kit? |
Uninformed posts like the the one above really make me question some of the marketing by ABS who claim a 97%+ survival rate. According to the SLF only about 1/3rd of all avalanche victims will actually be buried - and this figure only includes major cases that are actually reported to the institute..... For ABS to then claim that 97% of people who had to pull the trigger 'remained on top' is simply misleading and somewhat irresponsible... (on average at least 1/3rd of those would not have been buried anyway!)
I don't deny that an airbag increases your chances - but it certainly doesn't make you invincible, as already mentioned above.
If you afford and justify £500 for an air bag then clearly £200 for the beacon / shovel & probe (so you can perhaps rescue others!) wont break the bank and will also be considered money well spent.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 1-10-12 17:39; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Haggis_Trap, I do wonder the same, and whether they end up being sold to cityboy types as "I want one of those" rather than education and time spent hands on with tranny etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^ Can you imagine a powder day in Verbier / Chamonix where air bags have become compulsory kit for the army of 'wannabe red bull extremos' ? Happy in the knowledge they are '97% safe'... and perhaps about to open a slope directly above you 
At the end of the day the most important bit of gear to pack 'common sense' (easily left at home or forgotten in the excitement of the powder day, as I have discovered myself!). No shame in not skiing a slope....
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 1-10-12 17:52; edited 3 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Don't let the bag lure you into false sense of security, last time someone inflated an airbag in Verbier he died despite not being buried. Being dragged through rocks might be enough, there are limitations to what the bag can do for you and terrain will decide a lot. Having airbag increases the margin but not being caught in avalanche remains the best bet for survival. It's more important to get transceiver, shovel and probe, and your course is likely to include mountain safety and avalanche awareness.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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"I don't deny that an airbag increases your chances" and that surely is the point. The best defence is training, then not getting buried, if poo-poo happens and someone is buried the odds a really stacked against them so better to have an airbag than not. Who you choose to go with, their equipment and training could be a big factor in survival chances as well.
There is a danger that an airbag gives a false sense of security, but the same could be said of bleepers, probes etc.
It would be best for safety if the only people who went off piste had years of training and 30 ltr rucksacks full of safety gear but the reality is all that tempting fluffy white stuff beside the piste. There is a real danger that I might start yearning for the old days with skinny skis before snowboards which kept most of the skiers on the piste. Going back to the OP pedalpusher would be better with an airbag than without one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I am about to take the winter off and spend December/January/February doing a BASI Gap course in Verbier. There will be an off-piste element to this plus it is likely that I will do some off piste skiing at the weekends. From early February, I will more or less be free to ski as I wish until the end of the season.
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Two things -
1) By all means get an airbag. I did. It's great. Pound for pound, though Tremper's Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain and the Powderguide book outlining the Munter 3x3 and Reduction Methods (Managing Avalanche Risk) are probably the best money I spent. Tied second place goes to Mountain Tracks advanced course and Stuart MacDonanld's bargain price Avalanche Academy.
2) Discipline. Verbier goes mental on a powder day and things will be skied when they arguably shouldn't. Most of the time the protagonists don't die but the fact that they're still breathing after comitting some piece of stupidity is not an indication that you should follow them. This will frustrate you as it means that getting first tracks on some of the better lines is rare - often things have been tracked to pieces before they are "safe" but that is the nature of the place.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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gorilla, good post.
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rob@rar, ditto
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[quote="Haggis_TrapAt the end of the day the most important bit of gear to pack 'common sense' quote]
the funny thing about "common sense" is that it's not very common ..
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks all for your responses. I should have been clearer re the transceiver, shovel and probe - when asking whether it made sense to buy I meant buy over rent. I will be carrying a beeper, shovel and probe at all times and would expect my companious to do so.
I totally agree that the first line of defence is training and awareness. I will be doing beeper / avalanche / mountain awareness training and most probably buy that gear before heading out there. Burial statistics were very interesting, thanks.
Fundamentally, having an airbag won't increase my risk appetite or make me do things I wouldn't do without one. Also, it should make one more selfish or less likely to look out for their companions.
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^ Safety equipment is best purchased so that you become familiar with it, and it also becomes part of your daily routine.
Playing devils advocate - what factors would make you decide to rent an air bag for the day ? If the risk has become so high that you feel its necessary (for that particular day) then you really should be questioning your decision making first ?
Air bags are a good idea and have saved life's. As prices drop they will become more popular. However something has gone wrong when the general public consider them essential items for 'being safe'.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 2-10-12 10:49; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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gorilla, good post +1 and more from me,
The pressure on even the most experienced skiers to go off piste and get first tracks when its not as safe as it should be has increased significantly over the last few years and to some extent the pressure on the guides has increased as well to take people into situations where they may not have done 10 years ago.
If your off piste you should always have a transceiver shovel and probe, no ifs buts or maybes, I would even go so far as saying that if you have a transceiver then it should be used at ALL times regardless, its a good habit to get into putting it on even if your messing around on piste. I have over the years been on piste with people then they suggest cutting the corner off piste in-between two piste, then to find out they had their transceiver in their back pack. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's a valid point about skiing with a transceiver on-piste too. Don't forget about St Francois-Longchamp last year when that avalanche hit the chair-lift.
It could so easily have ended up with skiers buried.
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[quote="livetoski"]gorilla, good post +1 and more from me,
The pressure on even the most experienced skiers to go off piste and get first tracks when its not as safe as it should be has increased significantly over the last few years and to some extent the pressure on the guides has increased as well to take people into situations where they may not have done 10 years ago.
if skiers want to get first tracks when its not safe then more fool them. They obviously need to do more training. If you are saying they are aware of the dangers and are pushing the boundaries of what they perceive to be safe , then they obviously need more training. If a guide is willing to take me somewhere he wouldnt usually go because of pressure of the group then he needs more training. One thing guides do not do is take people where he/she does not feel it is safe to go even if all the group are baying him/she to do so, even 10 years ago.
marketing and accessibility, increase in numbers off piste etc aside, the above still applies
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