 Poster: A snowHead
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It's a long time since I had ski lessons and they were group lessons in Austria.
Going to France this coming season and planning a private lesson for just two of us. Is it the norm to tip the instructor, obviously presuming the lesson has been good, and if so, how much 
TIA
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Montana, it's not the norm to tip instructors in France. If you've enjoyed the lesson and feel the instructor has gone the extra mile then I'm sure a tip would be welcomed, but not expected.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, thank you - I always tip in bars and restaurants if the service has been good, but am never sure in this type of scenario and would hate to insult/disappoint!
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If you stop for a break somewhere, offer to buy their coffee. They're probably getting it free for bringing their clients to the restaurant anyway, but it's the thought that counts, right?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Montana, it's not the norm to tip instructors in France. If you've enjoyed the lesson and feel the instructor has gone the extra mile then I'm sure a tip would be welcomed, but not expected. |
There's a difference if the instructor's own the business right... 
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bertie bassett, Perhaps. I've been in lots of different classes with a variety of ski schools and very rarely have I been aware of any cash tips at the end of the lesson/course. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but I think it's rare enough for it to be a welcome surprise when you get one rather than a disappointment when you don't.
A couple of times I've given a bottle of whisky or champagne because I'd had a brilliant week with them, but never a cash tip. Looking at it from the other side of things, I often get coffee and occasionally lunch which is always very nice (means more to me because it's a friendly gesture rather than a nice cash equivalent). But it is never expected.
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Ski instructors in US always expect a tip, but not the French. I think buying your French instructor a drink is a nice gesture.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| A couple of times I've given a bottle of whisky or champagne because I'd had a brilliant week with them, but never a cash tip. Looking at it from the other side of things, I often get coffee and occasionally lunch which is always very nice (means more to me because it's a friendly gesture rather than a nice cash equivalent). But it is never expected. |
I bought a windsurf instructor a bottle of champers once...she managed in 90 minutes to get me to master a move I'd failed to do for the preceding 2 years. To say I was 'made up' was an understatement...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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We always tip in our group lesson in Tignes, just €5 each and it's very much appreciated, and a bit of a surprise I think
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Your lessons are expensive, but the instructor's pay is a small fraction of the lesson price.
A SMALL fraction.
A tip is very welcome.
In Switz the instructors get 50% discount in the mountain restaurants if they are in uniform and with clients. They don't eat/drink for free and certainly do not get a % for bringing clients in.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In Tignes we give 10 euro a head
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well I guess in france the instructor will be self employed so like bertie said, it doesnt matter as much but it still is a nice gesture if youve had a great day
Please don't assume all instructors eat for free, where i work (in switz) only a handful of crap overpriced restaurants give a miserly discount, begrudgingly. The nice ones don't give discounts to anyone. And like rungsp said, the idea of a commission does not exist at all.
I dunno... most people tip waiters as a matter of habit, if you tip a waiter to bring your food from the kitchen to your table in the confines of a nice cozy restaurant, why wouldn't you tip the person who spent all day making sure you had a great time, learnt new skills and kept you and your family safe and entertained in the dangerous environs of the mountains outside?
In many places in switzerland the waiter is getting paid more than the instructor anyway.....
It is very difficult for clients to sort of detach the cost of the lesson from what the instructor is paid, understandably coz lessons are very expensive round these parts, but it really is a fraction that goes to the instructor and tips go a very very long way towards living costs. And this sounds rude but it isnt meant to be, if you are going to tip, tip with cash, i have yet to meet a landlord who will accept a bottle of champers in lieu of rent........
That being said, only tip him/her if you have had a genuinely good day.... if the instructor is crap, ask for another one. If you ask for an ISTD (almost all brits in france will be) the chances are you'll have a great day.......
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When I worked if I brought in 10 to a restaurant my tray was free. (Always by prior arrangement)
I think £27 an hour is now the rate in France for an instructor and if it's for Club med whoopee 3* food as well. But deck chair attendant in Nice which was a friends summer job didn't pay that well.
Brits don't tip is well known so surprise is the norm.
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You know it makes sense.
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I wish the whole damn tipping practice was banned. It creats all sorts of confusions and mis-interpretation and its archaic anyway. The practice started when people offered services for which they were not already paid and for which the recipient would reward them IF they did the job well. As pointed out above, people are now paid to provide a service so there is no reason to 'tip' in the classic sense. It's also the source of many criminal and immoral acts from disreputable owners robbing staff to tax evasion and bribery. I also dislike the attitude of bad staff who are not tipped and the attitude of bad customers who bribe staff to give them service which dis-services other clientele.
Ban the whole miserable practice - ethically it stinks.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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A tip is never expected, but always appreciated. If you hand me a screaming miserable 4 year old at 9am and get a happy smiling child back at 3pm who can't wait to ski again tomorrow that is probably worth the tip. If you are travelling out of your normal country of residence please find out the local customs of the country you are visiting and act accordingly - Brits have a certain reputation and it's not a favourable one when it comes to tipping.
When it comes down to accepting lesson bookings I am often double booked and although I do try to act on a "first come, first served" basis this is not always possible. Does the amount of tip given on previous occasions then come into account? Well, I generally would choose to take the lesson which I get the most out of, although this might not be in the form of financial compensation.
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Poster: A snowHead
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As a puzzled Brit bystander, apart from the North Americans who does tip "well"?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stevew, Irish and South Africans, IME.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
I wish the whole damn tipping practice was banned. It creats all sorts of confusions and mis-interpretation and its archaic anyway. The practice started when people offered services for which they were not already paid and for which the recipient would reward them IF they did the job well. As pointed out above, people are now paid to provide a service so there is no reason to 'tip' in the classic sense. It's also the source of many criminal and immoral acts from disreputable owners robbing staff to tax evasion and bribery. I also dislike the attitude of bad staff who are not tipped and the attitude of bad customers who bribe staff to give them service which dis-services other clientele.
Ban the whole miserable practice - ethically it stinks. |
Half of me agrees with you. The other, slightly more cynical, half of my brain then remembers that countries like the USA with a strong tipping ethos also have a strong customer service ethos and I find myself idly wondering if the two facts might be connected in some strange way.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
One of the best tips I got was 100 French francs (so a while back then) which was actually off a guy for a mornings piste leading work! Another was of about 700 francs from a group I led for a week. At the time I was absolutely made up as that was about the same as my tour op pay for the week!
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that's exactly my point - you fondly remember tipping from before the freaking Euro was introduced FFS!! That sort of approach has got to distort your day to day approach to clients. Whatever happens at the back of your mind you will always be hoping for another 'pay day' like that and subconsciously judge every client that does not meet that mark. I'm not saying you are wrong or that you do not provide a service above and beyond what is expected every single engagement but you can bet there are those who do not meet that standard and still expect to get heavily tipped because at some time in the dim and distant past some over compensating pinhead tipped them some unfeasible amount for totally cr@p service. I know I've met them.
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The other, slightly more cynical, half of my brain then remembers that countries like the USA with a strong tipping ethos also have a strong customer service ethos and I find myself idly wondering if the two facts might be connected in some strange way.
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I actually have no issue with that - if you pay X for a service and get service X+Y then I totally agree it is appropriate to acknowledge that. What I have a problem with is the 'bell hop' attitude that just because you know where a room is and can carry a case that you should be tipped for 10 minutes light labour AFTER receiving a wage for doing the same - it makes no sense to me. It's not the exceptional service tipping I have an issue with - it's the institutionalised practice and the creepy ethics that accompany it. Why am I now commanded to add 12.5% to a restaurant bill as standard in certain UK establishments? I never used to 'tip' that much. My g/f always asks if the tips go to the staff - I've seen some pretty strained responses to that question, especially in family run restaurants. No one ever asks the question of what proportions go to the 'staff'.
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| Quote: |
One of the best tips I got was 100 French francs (so a while back then) which was actually off a guy for a mornings piste leading work! Another was of about 700 francs from a group I led for a week. At the time I was absolutely made up as that was about the same as my tour op pay for the week!
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that's exactly my point - you fondly remember tipping from before the freaking Euro was introduced FFS!! That sort of approach has got to distort your day to day approach to clients. Whatever happens at the back of your mind you will always be hoping for another 'pay day' like that and subconsciously judge every client that does not meet that mark. I'm not saying you are wrong or that you do not provide a service above and beyond what is expected every single engagement but you can bet there are those who do not meet that standard and still expect to get heavily tipped because at some time in the dim and distant past some over compensating pinhead tipped them some unfeasible amount for totally cr@p service. I know I've met them.
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The other, slightly more cynical, half of my brain then remembers that countries like the USA with a strong tipping ethos also have a strong customer service ethos and I find myself idly wondering if the two facts might be connected in some strange way.
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I actually have no issue with that - if you pay X for a service and get service X+Y then I totally agree it is appropriate to acknowledge that. What I have a problem with is the 'bell hop' attitude that just because you know where a room is and can carry a case that you should be tipped for 10 minutes light labour AFTER receiving a wage for doing the same - it makes no sense to me. It's not the exceptional service tipping I have an issue with - it's the institutionalised practice and the creepy ethics that accompany it. Why am I now commanded to add 12.5% to a restaurant bill as standard in certain UK establishments? I never used to 'tip' that much. My g/f always asks if the tips go to the staff - I've seen some pretty strained responses to that question, especially in family run restaurants. No one ever asks the question of what proportions go to the 'staff'. |
Well I certainly don't look at every client in this light! I do what I do because I enjoy it and I enjoy being able to help others get that same enjoyment. If they happen to tip me then great, its an added bonus, if not then no problem. I don't provide service based on if I think a gratuity is going to be forthcoming or not. I treat everyone the same.
Obviously not everyone works like that though.
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| I actually have no issue with that - if you pay X for a service and get service X+Y then I totally agree it is appropriate to acknowledge that. |
I don't really agree, and that's why I never give tips (and at same time I NEVER expect them either, even if I do more then I would absolutely need to do )... not even there where you are suppose to give. But seriously... you go to restaurant for dinner, for which you pay $160, and then they expect you to give extra 20% of this for tip? I'm sorry but I'm definitely not going to leave them $30 for bringing me (well overpaid) food to the table.
I still have my own attitude, which I'm sure lots of people won't like, about this. If you get salary, you are suppose to do your work for that salary. And if you do something, do it good. Like I said, I never expect to be tipped anyway for my work, and I don't see reason why anyone should be.
Do you tip the guy who takes your garbage away? Do you tip pilot of the plain, which just brought you to the other side of the world? Or a bus driver, or cashier in store, or guy filling shelves in store? Or some tech guy sitting in your Internet provider's office making it possible for you to hang on here, or booking your ski trip over internet? No, so why would some waitress or ski instructor or... be any different. They also get their salaries, just as anyone else. If they agree to get only 50% of salaries, and they would collect the other 50% from tips... well it's their problem not mine 
So I'm really happy that I live in country, where tipping is not common thing. 
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The problem is that certain industries in certain countries rely on the fact that the country has a culture of tipping and have therefore eroded their workers pay. This is poor practice by the employers.
So certain workers e.g ski instructors, waiters etc. rely on their tips to make a living wage. When I say make a living I mean being able to eat, put a roof over your head and so on, not go and buy luxuries.
Another angle on this is that countries like the US which has a culture of tipping you do not need any qualification to be able to teach (you don't in the UK either by law, but you might find it hard to get a job without at least a level 1), so every man and his dog who want to teach can, which depresses wages as people are willing to do the work for less money. Then also you get a situation where people need to get tips to make their living. The tip is no longer a nice 'extra' but an actual requirement to continue in that line of work.
I must admit I don't agree with this scenario as it is unfair on the employee for him/her to have to rely on the largesse of his clientele to be able to eat. However in a no-pressure/no tipping culture, tipping scenario, I see no problem as this is then a genuine expression of gratitude by the client for service well provided, not a "I'm expected to tip so I'll do this" thing. That's why when I've been tipped I've felt genuinely chuffed and humbled by the experience.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ironically one of the snootiest professions in the UK started with the practice of tipping. If you look at the back of barrister's cloaks there is a little pocket. What used to happen is that they would lounge around at 'the bar' that seperated the public from the courts and potential clients would wander along the public side of the bar then slip an carefully weighted amount of loose change into that pocket behind the barrister's back (so to speak) if they wanted to retain the brief to represent them in court. It's also the reason why barristers could never sue for payment for their services (not sure if that has changed recently). Whenever a brief used to get a bit uppity, I would threaten not to tip them. Needless to say over the years they 'unionised', started running a closed shop, upped their prices and ditched the practice of tipping. See what the toxic practice leads to!
primoz, accordinging to your vanity plate you are '... mostly chasing skiing WC around the World.' so you must come across it as an issue sometimes. And in the UK there is a whole day dedicated (in theory) to the practice of tipping - it's called Boxing Day so at least still in some parts of the country, dustmen - or 'garbage removal operatives' - do indeed look to get a chunnky yearly tip ....
In the UK, the dividing line historically was whether you got a wage or a salary. If you were a professional you got a salary and no tips and if not then you got a wage and may or may not get tips according to some arcane workings which, as you correctly point out, seem arbitrary nowadays.
skir67, I appreciate you feel that way but I've had some pretty heavy hints regarding tips dropped by maitre d's, ski instructors and a host of other clowns, much of the time in the US which, contrary to rumour, I tend to find more of a 'pay me, pay me more' culture rather than a service culture. Needless to say, I was not at all surprised to read recently of the exponential expansion of paid priority services in the US. In Georgia they have taken away the 'pool' car lanes (bye bye, green initiative) to make way for priority lanes where you can pay to queue jump your fellow commuters just like easyjet. The US seems to excel in creating ways where the affluent can either lord it over or screw over their fellow man. Tipping is just the 'tip' of the iceberg in that respect.
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Tipping confuses the hell out of me and I wish it didn't exist as I never know when it is appropriate or how much to offer. When I was learning to ski and me and kids would have lessons for the whole week in a small resort where we were known I used to take out lots of English breakfast tea, Sugar and large tins of English biscuit and present the ski school with 'English Tea Break' at the end of the week. In France we generally hand over a 10E note at the end of the kids private lessons. Whether each approach was appropriate I never knew.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Tipping confuses the hell out of me and I wish it didn't exist as I never know when it is appropriate or how much to offer. |
I totally agree!
In the US, the tipping is such a "normal" practice I once had waiter came out to ask me why I didn't tip. So I told him he brought the wrong food to the table and tried not to bother to exchange to the correct order, which was sub-standard service. To which his reply? "but everybody tips"!
So now I tip them a penny whenever the service is poor.
The problem with tipping is it being "voluntary". So some customers purposely choose to be "freeloaders" while others pay their share.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
When it comes down to accepting lesson bookings I am often double booked and although I do try to act on a "first come, first served" basis this is not always possible. Does the amount of tip given on previous occasions then come into account? Well, I generally would choose to take the lesson which I get the most out of, although this might not be in the form of financial compensation.
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blimey that sounds close on prostitution!!!
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You know it makes sense.
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Unless you have lived a very sheltered life, then you know what tipping is, and the people it is customary to tip (whether that is right or wrong in your eyes). When in Rome and all that.....
pretending otherwise is just embarrassing, but then awkwardness has always been our favourite export
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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RattytheSnowRat,
Well I don't agree with people dropping heavy hints or the like to elicit a tip. But the fact is most of those type of staff are paid shite in the states so the tips are how they get by.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skir67, in some U.S. One gets more from a repeat booking from the same person or group, say 30% of first booking 50% of rebook; this is part of the reason US instructors are very nice people paying very good attention to the customer. Not all resorts work to this system.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Cynic wrote: |
| skir67, in some U.S. One gets more from a repeat booking from the same person or group, say 30% of first booking 50% of rebook; this is part of the reason US instructors are very nice people paying very good attention to the customer. Not all resorts work to this system. |
yes I know they get bonuses for repeat request bookings which obviously incentivizes the instructor to do a good job (though they should do that anyway), even so the pay rates are pretty awful particularly when you look at the cost of living in a ski resort.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skir67, Some I knew in Vale live in a trailer park up the road, which was good for non residents.
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Tipping confuses me to.... last week was down in Glasgow... went for lunch at The Hilton by the Squinty Bridge (used to be the city inn I've eaten/ stayed there many times normally very good) this time we recived apauling service... when the bill came there was a 10% service charge allready added + the oppertunity to add more..... in the evening we ate at our hotel where the service was excellent, I wanted to charge the meal to the room but when the bill came there wasn't the opertunity to add a tip...
As for instructors... thats easyier for me if it's good I do if not I don't most I've tipped is 50E for 6 hours of tuition over 3 days...
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I've only ever bought coffees, apart from one lunch during an all day lesson. But then I'm a tight Scottish git. And also I've never had lessons in N. America, where I think peer pressure would have been brought to bear!
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| Cynic wrote: |
| skir67, Some I knew in Vale live in a trailer park up the road, which was good for non residents. |
a trailer park, classy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Cynic wrote: |
| skir67, in some U.S. One gets more from a repeat booking from the same person or group, say 30% of first booking 50% of rebook; this is part of the reason US instructors are very nice people paying very good attention to the customer. Not all resorts work to this system. |
Please point me in the direction of a resort that pays 30% of the first booking and 50% of subsequent bookings........I've not heard of a resort that pays that much.
The incentive is generally an additional dollar amount which may increase after a certain number of request hours/lessons have been worked - eg, a ski instructor gets paid $15/hr, for a request lesson the incentive is $5/hr therefore making the hourly pay for that lesson $20. At one resort I know the incentive amount is increased by $1 for every 25 hours worked, up to 200 hours, thus the maximum amount of incentive being $13. A 6.5 hour private request lesson is $600 - the most this instructor can make is $182 for this lesson (about 30% of the lesson) - but that would be late in the season after having taught 200 hours of request lessons already.
As far as I know only 2 or 3 instructors taught over 200 request hours last season in this resort.
In the US ski instructors need tips, they are not expected all the time, but we endeavor to EARN a tip from every guest.
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For me it's not so much of where you tip, as how much you should tip. I think in the UK you generally tip waiters 10%, and taxi drivers whatever comes to mind at the time - around 10%, but it wouldn't occur to me to tip many others.
As mentioned above I have tipped the odd ski instructor around 10E for each child on a 2 hr private lesson esp. if the kids have had a good time. However, I'd be a fish out of water in the USA regarding who to tip and how much. You see in films tips being offered to the person who carries a bag in a hotel, or brings room service. From this I know that they should be tipped, but I've no idea how much, similarly does 10% work in restaurants, how much for taxi drivers, instructors and for which sports etc. What happens on something like a cruise ship etc. I've no inherent objection to tipping per se, but it's an absolute minefield. It reminds me of Yes, Prime Minister regarding the customary Christmas present for a private secretary.
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FAQ
) I've always gratefully received them and they were always a very pleasant surprise. One of the best tips I got was 100 french francs (so a while back then) which was actually off a guy for a mornings piste leading work! Another was of about 700 francs from a group I led for a week. At the time I was absolutely made up as that was about the same as my tour op pay for the week!
