All those lessons trying to eradicate skidding my turns!?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Not in a race or training context - but an essential tool in any tree skiing armoury. The radius of FIS GS skis rules will be a game changer for sure. No doubt generating Eurotest moans as its something that aspirants will have to adapt to as a technique.
I dunno much about ski racing but why are they designing courses that clearly aren't within the parameters of the ski!? Nowt wrong with a bit of pivot but that's just silly.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
It's not as if skiing is some purist pretty thing, much as some national bodies may occasionally try to give that impression. The powerslide or drift and lock has always been a fun thing to do, particularly if you get very good and can deploy it to rooster spray a mate.
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spud, I'm not planning on racing FIS GS after next winter, courses get chewed up enough as it is, the reports from people like Aksel Lund Svindal suggest that it will be even worse with the new skis.
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Wasn't it Bode who got that working really well first?
I thought "scarving" was where it's at in deep snow now anyway.
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fatbob, I dunno I guess I just expect ski racing where you can control the parameters of the race course to be a test of skiers skill at the performance limits of the ski rather than past it. You clearly are well past the performance limits of the ski if you have to slow down heavily with essentially a pretty wild and powerful maneuver (at those speeds) to make it round a corner. Seems daft.
If you can't control the parameters or are just recreational skiing then yeah schmearing/power sliding/whatever the heck kids are calling these days, is just another technique you need to deal with whats in front of you. It also looks cool and is a great way of getting faceshots in ze powder.
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Totally different concept in powder though.
With Racing it's all about keeping speed up, with the body facing down the fall line and with no upper body rotation.
I found courses were getting more churned up at the start of the turn rather than at the mid point with this stivoting method.
When the course had got churned up, it really was hard to get the edge to engage after the stivot, as the ski was chattering and fighting to grip across all the undulations of the cut up ice.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
It's certainly not visually very appealing. Unfortunately, I suspect I do something similar most of the time - but slowly and not on purpose.... and without the carved bit at the end
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
meh wrote:
fatbob, I dunno I guess I just expect ski racing where you can control the parameters of the race course to be a test of skiers skill at the performance limits of the ski rather than past it.
But pretty explicitly FIS have acknowledged that performing at the performance limits of skis is a way racers get seriously injured or dead so are trying to engineer a slow down through equipment parameters.
BTW I acknowledge it's different used recreationally but it's still the same core concepts - a truly adaptable skier/racer will pick it up, one who has been trained into one way of skiing will struggle regardless of whether that's a holiday skier or a racer. Not that most race training I've seen doesn't encourage all sorts of adaptability.
spud - Fair point about course degradation - prospect of aggressively sideslipping on rilled ice is another reason never to contemplate racing.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Thu 27-09-12 13:32; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Race experts - are courses set up differently from the days of straight skis and a portly Italian playboy ruling the GS world? if not, what's the fuss about?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Mosha Marc wrote:
Wasn't it Bode who got that working really well first?
I thought "scarving" was where it's at in deep snow now anyway.
Nah "skurfing" or "slurfing"*
* I've no idea whether I've just made this up but using reverse camber skis to ride snow including mild sluff in in a surfy style?
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fatbob, I don't see any eurotest issues due to the fact that the new dimensions should take years to filter through to this this. most recent rules are for a minimum 21m radius which was superceded at FIS races several years ago by the current (for this coming season still) 23m radius for women and 27m for men.
From BASI - The following of the FIS rules for GS skis is no longer mandatory for participants entering the Eurotest so should be treated as guidance only.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Seem to recall a thread on cloudbursts a while ago. What's the difference between a stivot turn and a cloudburst, if any?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Another tool in the skier's toolbox, but not a very graceful movement for racing, I think (it's the graceful movement in racing that got me hooked in the first place).
Bode has shown that being an untidy skier doesn't mean you can't win, though.
Kelskii, sort of the main difference seems to be the pivot is much more extreme. In the video above the first dude in the green helmet really slings the skis sideways and a couple of times pivots them back into the line he wants to ski for example. Following on from fatbob's point isn't there a better way to slow things down without essentially making racers speedcheck all over the place?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Its been a part of GS for a while now, the only difference with the new 35m skis is that they have to do it a bit more. Personally I struggle enough on the 27m skis that I have.
Been watching the WC teams (Austria, Norway, Canada, US men and US women + Tina Maze) train for the last month or so, and they don't seem to stivoting all that much more than before, not certain they were on the 35m skis, but I assume they were. Still incredible skiing to watch.
After all it is free
After all it is free
It's been a feature of GS and to a lesser extent slalom (on the steeps, see Wengen) for some time. Before the latest round of crazy GS ski changes it was more of a redirection when you are 'light' before hooking the skis up but that video it's more of a skidding sideways approach to the gate which looks to have more in common with world rally cars than world cup skiing
I use slalom skis as piste skis and do stivot on the steepest stuff but I can't do it all that well. As I improve, the bigger edge angles and early pressure I can get means I can get the turn radius tighter and so I need to do this less. The tough thing with it for me is to stop the ski skidding and get it too hook up after it has started skidding.
Looking at that vid I think we are going to see a number of accidents with racers misjudging the skid and clipping the ski tips on the gate.
meh wrote:
Following on from fatbob's point isn't there a better way to slow things down without essentially making racers speedcheck all over the place?
Yes, banning skinsuits would be a good logical start.
Last edited by After all it is free on Thu 27-09-12 15:03; edited 1 time in total
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A lot has been said about the new Ski regs and there seems to be a lot of grey areas as to why they were introduced.
Lots of politics involved it seems.
Interestingly when I spoke to Ted Ligerty ( a very vocal speaker against these new regs and skis ) he told me he was actually skiing faster on them.
All I hope is that it doesn't put people off Ski Racing especially the new Generation.
For me, Ski Racing and it's regulations need to become simpler and easier to understand.
It also costs a lot of money to keep changing skis. Ok for sponsered skiers, but not those who are not.
It will be interesting to see the results in the coming season and feedback from racers.
On another point... The design of Race skis generally filters down to the average punters skis.
I can see an increase in Ski lengths across the board developing in the near future ....
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narc, The video is of several races so they will be on old spec skis.
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spud wrote:
On another point... The design of Race skis generally filters down to the average punters skis.
I can see an increase in Ski lengths across the board developing in the near future ....
I wonder if it will, most punter GS skis ('cheater' GS skis really) are around 16m radius which is nothing like the current 27m.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
narc wrote:
spud wrote:
On another point... The design of Race skis generally filters down to the average punters skis.
I can see an increase in Ski lengths across the board developing in the near future ....
I wonder if it will, most punter GS skis ('cheater' GS skis really) are around 16m radius which is nothing like the current 27m.
Very true... But I was thinking more along marketing and selling. Companies are always finding something new to sell skis to us mere mortals. Most things in Sport come full circle at some point or another. I can see this being another... Longer and thinner may become the new shorter and fat...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Not so much longer and thinner.
Fat skis, and a more pronounced side-cut have definitely changed skiing. It's easier to turn, it's easier to 'float' in powder and batter through crud.
I don' see skis getting much thinner. One of the limiting factors in ski design has been omnipresent and that's the limitations of the materials available.
I'm sure fatter skis would have come along earlier if the materials to provide the structural and flexion characteristics were easily available. As materials technology changes, so too do the designs to take advantage of those new characteristics.
I can see skis getting longer again, for no other reason that longer skis tend to be faster than short ones. However, with skis having become fatter, a longer ski is only really possible with the use of materials with lower density for the same structural characteristics. As it is, a longer, fatter ski will be significantly heavier.
What ever happened to Kastle's Fibre-tube skis? I thought that was a fantastic idea and not too far removed from an idea I had myself, and could certainly be used to make longer, wider AND lighter skis
The advent of wider fatter skis, that are shorter and with a greater radius, have arguably made skiing a lot easier to enjoy. With the advent of camber and rocker even more so for going off piste.
I know it is something that concerns many ski schools, as punters are taking less lessons. It's suggested that it's because the 'newer' skis are easier to use.
However... people are getting down the slopes, but very often in an uncontrolled fashion. The new wide and short skis often disguising poor technique.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
fatbob wrote:
Nah "skurfing" or "slurfing"
A guide I was out with a couple of years ago told me to "Stop trying to carvy carvy everything, slidey slidey is the new cool"
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
spud wrote:
I know it is something that concerns many ski schools, as punters are taking less lessons. It's suggested that it's because the 'newer' skis are easier to use.
Actually I'm sure the same stuff knocked about when sidecut was "invented" and before that when those skateboard kids invented that snowboarding fad and when those nasty metal edges were invented.
Ski schools should be welcoming the new tech and prepared to teach on what punters are buying rather than what orthodoxy says. There's more progressive US ski schools offering rocker specific lessons or at least guided learning on how to get the best out of the new skis. While sometimes it seems a badge of honour that instructors don't ski on anything other than a respectable ski (only a mild poke at skimottaret here ). NB we're not talking about never evers or low intermediates who need good habits first.
& I'm not sure poor technique is disguised - you can spot someone who knows what they are doing compared to someone hanging on fairly easily.
fatbob, Totally agree... Skiing isn't Rocket Science, but neither is driving a car.
Yet we allow anyone to buy a pair of skis and basically throw themselves down a slope without any understanding or even knowledge of how to stop. Which in my understanding is total madness.
Nothing wrong with technology and skiing made easier for everyone to enjoy, and perhaps it's just me, but i've definately noticed more people skiing out of control and too fast for their own safety and anyone elses, than when i learnt to ski.
I would make everyone have at least one lesson before being allowed on a slope...to make sure they can stop.
Now that's probably going to open a whole new can of worms...
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
The new wide and short skis often disguising poor technique.
couldn't agree more.
My g/f LOVED it when she could move on to shorter skis as she has been ‘spivoting’ for years. Not, however, for technique reasons - she can't be bothered to bend her knees adequately and finds it much easier to yank the skis round with body movement at the last minute, sort of like the jump by the skier in the first video. The shorter/fatter skis have aided this abortion of a technique no end. She actually owned a set of the first elliptical Elans which we picked up in the States. She tested them and adored them and they were super short and super fat (they got nicked later and she still talks about them). Needless to say, I spend vast amounts of time waiting for her to get down slopes as her spivot technique does not lend itself to high speeds.
Let's face it - this is not really new, when we jump turn in deep powder it's more or less doing the same thing for the same reason - big change of direction in a short space using body mass and upper body twist to execute the change of direction. All these guys are doing is the same thing with less height and a less extreme change of direction. They go weight neutral and flick the backs of their skis to align with slightly over rotated shoulders rather than forcing the skis by carving. The biggest danger I see is catching the base when weight neutral. When you carve you more or less power through any change of terrain. I can see a spivot catching out quite a few skiers when there is a change of terrain under the skis at the transition point.
There's more progressive US ski schools offering rocker specific lessons
There's a need for rocker specific ski lessons?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Serriadh, If you've skied with your knnes together and bum cheeks clenched all your life, yes.
Actually talking to shop owners the usual story goes :
"Can I demo some of those new fangled rocker skis?"
end of day
"Tried them, didn't like them, didn't seem to have much control on the groomer".
The lessons I think are more about helping people get the most out of the kit or teaching them how to have better "feel". And holding their hand while they take them where they should be used.
After all it is free
After all it is free
There's been a trend for longer skis for probably the last 5 years already!
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RattytheSnowRat, seems funny because its almost the exact opposite of the technique they're supposed to make easier.
You're supposed to pivot when unweighted though so I'm not sure how shorter, fatter skis make that easier? Sounds more like shes just relying on rotating the skis when they're weighted on the snow which makes sense because a shorter ski will be much easier to turn that way. This is part of the reason I suspect people like blades.
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Quote:
You're supposed to pivot when unweighted though so I'm not sure how shorter, fatter skis make that easier?
Swing weight maybe? I can't imagine there being all_that_much difference though...
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