 Poster: A snowHead
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Am considering buying a down midlayer for those occasional times when a fleece is jut not warm enough (e.g. Tignes last December). I wondered what experience people had of down midlayers as from the research I have done lots of the product out there is aimed at climbing etc and I am unsure as to how suitable they would be for skiing bearing in mind that although I am anticipating cold conditions with skiing I would still be on the move and I don't want to overheat. Appreciate the help as always.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Personally, I wouldn't use down as a midlayer unless there were no other alternatives. High quality down is awesome because you get a massive warmth-to-weight ratio... but the highest quality down is also the most compressible which means that when you sling a shell over the top you'll squash it so it won't be able to insulate as well. You could use lower grade down, but then it won't be as warm, so why bother?
Have a look at something made of polartec thermal pro high loft; it is really thick and fluffy for fleece and so is very warm, but keeps fleece's usual properties of drying very fast and breathing very well. I'd use thermal base + one of these fleeces + softshell down to pretty low temps, if I was reasonably active.
If that isn't enough, I'd look towards getting a warmer outer layer. You don't need 20k waterproofing when it is -15 out. Get yourself a decent down or synthetic fill jacket. It'll be warmer, comfier and less bulky than a down mid plus hard shell outer, and the additional cost over a down mid needn't be that great if you don't buy silly gear from expensive ski brands.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 21-09-12 13:59; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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billybob, Far too warm in my view, need breathability too. I go for merino Icebreaker 200 base layer with 260/ 320 (depending on how cold it is) midlayer and goretex or similar shell over, with a merino buff good enough for -20C. Gloves Hestra Army. Always v warm.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have a down jacket from Patagonia, one of the newer 'lightweight/very thin' but very warm ones. I have found it excellent as it packs down very small and fits a small corner of my backback but provides a great warmth layer when needed e.g. Val D'Isere in December.
Its all about personal taste and preferences I think which you need to figure out but I wouldn't be without mine in the coldest months, at the very least in my backpack as a reserve layer.
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Hooded midlayers are a bit marmite. I have a light hooded mid (or heavy baselayer, depending on your point of view) which is nice cos the hood fits well under a helmet. Wouldn't want anything with a more substantial hood though.
You can have a look at the Patagonia R3 High Loft if you'd like something to make the Norrona offering look reasonably priced. I have a Rab Boulder pull-on that's a fraction of the price of either.
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Polartec PowerStretch = toasty
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I've got the RAB Alpine Microlight which is a pretty nifty bit of kit and great to sling on when you stop if it's cold. Don't find it gets too compressed to stop being warm under a shell jacket and it works adequately as an outer layer. It also packs really small which is handy for fitting it in my pack! The problem with fleeces is they tend to have a lot of bulk for the same level of warmth. Which is pretty much fine if you're not going to be taking it off all day otherwise one of the down jackets is a better bet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Serriadh wrote: |
Hooded midlayers are a bit marmite. I have a light hooded mid (or heavy baselayer, depending on your point of view) which is nice cos the hood fits well under a helmet. Wouldn't want anything with a more substantial hood though.
You can have a look at the Patagonia R3 High Loft if you'd like something to make the Norrona offering look reasonably priced. I have a Rab Boulder pull-on that's a fraction of the price of either. |
Yeah definitely, I pull the hood outside my shell and tuck it around my neck (can't stand it making a hump inside my shell), which works quite well as the bottom of it starts quite high up my neck (f that makes sense?), don't wear it under my helmet. Does make it more versatile for other activities though - went hiking in the Ennstal last weekend, really hot most of the time but cold and windy on the top, was very glad of the hood (can't blow off like a hat!).
That Patagonia is not cheap!!
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 21-09-12 14:39; edited 1 time in total
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I've got a windproof North Face fleece which Ive had for years and still use. It had a simple windproof hood (no insulation) which packed into a zipped bit on the collar. Couple of years ago, I just cut the hood off and closed the zip. I never use it and the collar's too bulky with it packed. I much prefer wearing a hat than a hood
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| meh wrote: |
| The problem with fleeces is they tend to have a lot of bulk for the same level of warmth. Which is pretty much fine if you're not going to be taking it off all day otherwise one of the down jackets is a better bet. |
There is that. I was assuming that the OP was going to layer up sensibly and stay dressed that way. I don't like chopping and changing mids; I dress up and generally stay that way during the day, and have a lightweight down jacket in my bag in case it gets unexpectedly cold or I crash and explode a leg and need to sit around in the snow for a bit. It goes over the top of my shell; overlayers are easy to add and remove.
One advantage (to my mind!) of fleeces over synthetic microfibre or down mids is that they're not even slightly windproof. Thermal pro will keep the wind out about as well as a fishnet bodystocking (uh, or so I assume), which means it is not much good as an outer layer but if you unzip your shell a little bit you'll cool off super fast if needs be.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Serriadh wrote: |
| meh wrote: |
| The problem with fleeces is they tend to have a lot of bulk for the same level of warmth. Which is pretty much fine if you're not going to be taking it off all day otherwise one of the down jackets is a better bet. |
There is that. I was assuming that the OP was going to layer up sensibly and stay dressed that way. I don't like chopping and changing mids; I dress up and generally stay that way during the day, and have a lightweight down jacket in my bag in case it gets unexpectedly cold or I crash and explode a leg and need to sit around in the snow for a bit. It goes over the top of my shell; overlayers are easy to add and remove.
One advantage (to my mind!) of fleeces over synthetic microfibre or down mids is that they're not even slightly windproof. Thermal pro will keep the wind out about as well as a fishnet bodystocking (uh, or so I assume), which means it is not much good as an outer layer but if you unzip your shell a little bit you'll cool off super fast if needs be. |
+1
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| Quote: |
Hooded midlayers are a bit marmite.
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I chuffing love hooded fleeces. I live in my R1 hoody, summer and winter. Hood goes under or over a helmet (climbing, not skiing) and is great to regulate between moving and stopping. Combined with a hooded windproof, they're the ultimate softshell....
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You know it makes sense.
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Serriadh, depends on what you're doing really. Obviously if you touring or bootpacking your energy output is much higher than skiing and similarly sitting on a chairlift is much less than skiing. Conceivably you could be doing all these things in a day and chopping and changing layers just helps keep you comfy. I'll definitely bung the jacket on for a long chair ride as I like to be at a comfy temperature whilst skiing which means I get cold easily on long chair rides if the weather is crap. You're much better off managing these things in advance than waiting till you're too hot or too cold at least IMO.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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meh, keeping warm on long lifts is what your hipflask is for 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thank you all for those really useful comments- excellent stuff. Just by way of clarification I would like to avoid carrying a second mid layer if possible as I am trying not to carry a backpack anymore but that's not a huge issue. Incidentally last December when I really felt the cold I was wearing last seasons norrona hooded fleece under a soft shell. Maybe my mistake was wearing a soft shell in those sort of conditions?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have used the uniqlo utra light weight down as seen here: http://shop.uniqlo.com/uk/FSC02210E01.do?qtext=down&x=0&y=0
at c £50 its cheap enough to experiment I thought and it works well. It lacks some technical features like a waist elastic cinch but It goes under a shell and packs light. As for venting I use the pits zips on my hard shell. It needs to be well fitted though- i should try it in before buying as the sizes are a little japanese!
Other options are Primaloft, particularly the Patagonia Nano Puff line which are a good weight at 60g fill rather than the usual 100g weight .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| billybob wrote: |
| Maybe my mistake was wearing a soft shell in those sort of conditions? |
Well, if you had an alternative insulated outer layer then it would have made more sense to wear that, but softshells are not really any worse than any other sort of shell and are often a bit warmer than alternatives. I almost always wear softshells on the outside because they make good sacrifical layers... they're much easier to repair than hard shells, and it isn't really bad news if you rip them like insulating jackets!
| meh wrote: |
| if you touring or bootpacking your energy output is much higher than skiing and similarly sitting on a chairlift is much less than skiing. Conceivably you could be doing all these things in a day and chopping and changing layers just helps keep you comfy. |
Sure; the idea of overlayering is adding on an extra layer of insulation, or taking your shell off if you're getting toasty. It doesn't involve stripping off your shell, taking off a midlayer (or swapping it) and putting the shell back on, because that's at best a hassle and at worst hazardous (cos you don't want to be stripping down when the weather is lousy). Bulky layers are for wearing all day or leaving at home... I think we are in agreement on that one!
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billybob, We have been delighted with Arc'tyx "Atom" jackets this winter, very useful in other situations as well, e.g. Just around town.
I find my Mountain Hardwear Monkeyman fleece too warm for anything but the very, very coldest conditions. I.e. probably -15 below.
Patagonia also do a neat line in "nano"? fleeces.
I shall be wearing my gilet of such out this very evening for the first time this Autumn.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thank you all for those recommendations! And no I don't mind my puff in poof colours so long as the price is right
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I'm free.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Go for Primaloft. I have a Keela Belay jacket which is great as a mid layer. if you ski mainly on piste, the only disadvantage is that there's no hood, but if you wear a helmet, that shouldn't matter.
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| billybob wrote: |
| Incidentally last December when I really felt the cold I was wearing last seasons norrona hooded fleece under a soft shell. Maybe my mistake was wearing a soft shell in those sort of conditions? |
The thin fleece or the super-thick one? How cold? If it's REALLY cold it can start to make sense to wear an insulated jacket instead of the shell, if you'd have to wear ridiculous amounts of layers/don't have heavyweight layers.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Chamcham wrote: |
| Go for Primaloft. I have a Keela Belay jacket which is great as a mid layer. if you ski mainly on piste, the only disadvantage is that there's no hood, but if you wear a helmet, that shouldn't matter. |
Speaking as a helmet wearer, a helmet is absolutely not a substitute for a good hood! Hoods do an excellent job of keeping cold and wind out; they're more effective than a scarf and no coat collar alone can be as good.
The 133gsm primaloft in that belay jacket will give excellent insulation for the cost; no down jacket that cheap would be nearly as good.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have found Primaloft to be a poor midlayer when active. The primaloft is sandwiched between two pertex (or similar) layers so breathability is poor, meaning you get very sweaty. Fleece works a lot better.
Primaloft is great for outer wear in inclement weather, belay jacket etc, where down won’t do, but wouldn’t be my choice for a mid layer.
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| Serriadh wrote: |
| Chamcham wrote: |
| Go for Primaloft. I have a Keela Belay jacket which is great as a mid layer. if you ski mainly on piste, the only disadvantage is that there's no hood, but if you wear a helmet, that shouldn't matter. |
Speaking as a helmet wearer, a helmet is absolutely not a substitute for a good hood! Hoods do an excellent job of keeping cold and wind out; they're more effective than a scarf and no coat collar alone can be as good. |
I think it really comes down to personal preference here. I much prefer my helmet to a hood. I always find hoods restrict movement somewhat and I can feel it tugging at the collar of my jacket when looking around. My helmet is about as warm as a hat (especially with the ear-pads) and there's very little gap, if not an overlap between collar and the bottom edge of the helmet so I don't really feel any draughts there.
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You know it makes sense.
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galpinos, Galpinos interesting you should say that- that was one of my main concerns- staying warm but still having that breathability that you need when skiing. What do you use as a midlayer when the cold comes in?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I said that as I have a thin 40g primaloft pullover that I live in most of the year (climbing/running/biking) but it’s only used as a booster layer when not doing much. I wore it climbing as an additional mid-layer the winter before last and it was not a success (the route was great though!)
My general body ski get up is:
Merino 260 Base (on piste, if I’m skinning or hiking it’ll be 150)
Patagonia R1 Hoody
Patagonia Winter Guide Jacket.
Additionally for cold weather I’ll add a Thermal Pro Gillet (under shell). If it’s proper Baltic, I’ll wear my down jacket to ski in instead of my winter guide. I generally have synthetic puffy jacket in my bag as a just in case.
All my ski kit is basically my climbing kit so I generally look a bit try hard but I’m loathe to spend more money when what I’ve got is functional. I do tend to look like a tit though. As previously posted:
Guess which one I am!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I guess it'll depend on what type of Pertex it is but, IMV, the breathability will not be compromised by this layer. Instead you should be pointing a finger at the membrane of your hard shell if you have one. Or maybe there's just too much insulation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertex
IMV, you should be looking at lots of mix-and-max layers - possibly including Primaloft - so you can build up just the insulation you need. And don't forget to take off a layer if you're getting warm. Usually, I only wear a hard shell now when it's actually raining - hard. I often use a Pertex windshirt, in preference, to keep out the cold wind specifically because it is very breathable.
I'd certainly avoid wearing down under a hard shell lest it get damp and the feathers start sticking together.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I guess it'll depend on what type of Pertex it is but, IMV, the breathability will not be compromised by this layer. Instead you should be pointing a finger at the membrane of your hard shell if you have one. Or maybe there's just too much insulation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertex
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You've lost me, assuming this was aimed at my statement:
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I have found Primaloft to be a poor midlayer when active. The primaloft is sandwiched between two pertex (or similar) layers so breathability is poor, meaning you get very sweaty. Fleece works a lot better.
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It doesn't work as well as fleece as a mid layer. Fleece is very breathable, that’s why it’s not windproof and makes a poor outer layer. Pertex is windproof and despite being very breathable for a windproof layer, is still no where near as breathable as fleece. Any primaloft style synthetic top will have the insulation sandwiched between two pertex-like layers. Add to this the hard shell and that’s three windproof layers. Compare that with a thick (thermal pro style) fleece and a shell and you have one windroof layer. This will be a far more breathable (though less versatile) system.
I rate pertex as an outer layer but for a mid-layer when you’re not taking your shell off, fleece is hard to beat.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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galpinos, I guess we are both saying that the combination of Primaloft and hard shell is ineffective but you seem to be blaming the Pertex.
IMV, this conclusion is wrong. The breathable membrane of a hard shell such as GoreTex will only transport water vapour when there is heat on the inside - from your body. If you put a heavy layer of insulation, such as Primaloft, in the way then there'll be little temperature gradient across the membrane and you will lose moisture vapour transmission.
If it's cold enough to need a Primaloft then it's probably going to be well below freezing and you're not going to need a waterproof barrier anyway so just ditch the hard shell. And if you need something more hard wearing than Pertex on the outside then I'd suggest something like Schoeller DrySkin, a proper, stretchable, breathable, windproof, soft shell.
Some suggestions here:
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/expert-advice/guide-to-breathability
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
So I guess neither Galpinos not Altis wants one of these primaloft/fleece hybrids for Xmas then
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Not a chance! I can't see when I'd wear it and it looks awful (and I'm a dyed in the wool Patagucci fan).
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galpinos, I guess we are both saying that the combination of Primaloft and hard shell is ineffective
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Agreed, as well as hard shell under soft shell in my experience.
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but you seem to be blaming the Pertex.
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When I've ended up chucking a shell over a pertex top it's a lot sweatier inside the pertex than without it. Read into that what you will!
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If it's cold enough to need a Primaloft then it's probably going to be well below freezing and you're not going to need a waterproof barrier anyway so just ditch the hard shell.
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If it's well below freezing, I'd be wearing down. Primaloft comes into it's own at temperatures when your insulation is likely to get wet, i.e. the UK! My caveat is that I'd only wear the down or Primaloft (temperature dependant) as on over layer.
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Just got a Marmot Variant hybrid jacket, which is similar to the Patagonia jacket above but only has insulation on the front torso, the rest is polartec power stretch. Sitting here in it, seems to be keeping the core warm but the back and arms are quite normal, interesting to see what it's like under a hard shell this winter.
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billybob, you could have a down vest and wear it over everything else- a good idea for chair lifts / lucy- then take it off when skiing- but this needs- a big down vest and a rucksack (Mrs Ed does this- she gets very cold) ( I carry a vest some times but hardly ever have worn it- it is more for accidents / disasters than anything else)
or you could have a nice nanopuff vest over your fleece- but you might get too hot. (I have a nano puff vets but don't wear it skiing
or you could just accept getting a bit cold on the lifts and then warm up skiing.(which is what I generally do- after putting on inner gloves / a toc/ balaclava)
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| 2planks wrote: |
| Just got a Marmot Variant hybrid jacket, which is similar to the Patagonia jacket above but only has insulation on the front torso, the rest is polartec power stretch. Sitting here in it, seems to be keeping the core warm but the back and arms are quite normal, interesting to see what it's like under a hard shell this winter. |
Looks very interesting, especially if skiing with a pack ... - more so (and cheaper!!) than the patagonia (Patagucci - too right - but it fits soooooo good...). I want to look at how it washes, because it might get a bit....... smelly!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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clarky999, clarky- took your advice and went for the norrona fleece- am liking it a lot! Thanks for the help
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billybob, cool, glad you like it!
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FAQ
