 Poster: A snowHead
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I think the first thing we should do is sort out the press
I'd also identify what materials we'd need and in what quantities.
For the matted type fabrics such as fibreglass or carbon fibre, then a guesstimate of 2000mm by 200mm would be a sufficient guesstimate for each ski and cover pretty much all design eventualities. If we know how many skis we'd want to make in each run then I can cost up the materials based on that quantity.
How many 'prototypes' would you want to make for each design before pressing your finished product?
I'd not worry about mounting a binding plate at this stage. It's an added complexity that can be addressed when the basic process has been tried and tested.
K.I.S.S. and work from there.
The bit I'm least familiar with is the sidewalls. there must be a better way than filling the sides with epoxy and milling/routing the remainder off.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Apparently we can dig a moat in the laminated timber we're going to use and melt in P-tex and then just build the ski with sidewall already bonded to the core.
I definitely agree that the press is the first requirement, my idea for the designs was thats it's just something we can do on our own between now and next summer and we don't all have to end up with a ski of the same dimensions, personally I'm looking for a wider ski that what I currently have, don't know what everyone else's preferences would be.
In terms of the press I do believe that using the compressor and hose would be the most practical and am open to trying whatever setup people think is most efficient, that press in sketchup with the I beam just needs investigated as we'd have to work out what thickness for the web and flange. I think if we can work in the track then it would be good, personally it moves too much for me to design, more feefs sort of thing.
In terms of materials I don't think the fibre glass, carbon fibre or kevlar is going to be the tough one to source easily, getting high quality timber that we can then laminate properly could be just as troublesome, and I imagine the edges are only from specialist supliers.
Do either of you two think you could handle the edge bending, I looked at a mechanism they'd built on skibuilders and while it doesn't look hard I imagine it really is.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think the first thing to do would be everyone decide what they want from their ski, profile, core, graphics, and then we do a test run on a basic cambered ski, not bothering with any fancy graphics or inserts, just a plain colour to show that we can do the technique we choose. After that we build one set at a time, making a new mould shouldn't be took taxing for each ski or for profiling each ski, of course we might end up wanting a similar profile and mould to each other making it easy for ourselves, but even if we don't we should probably store each profile rig and mould in the case we do want to make a similar ski in the future.
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Happy with that. If we use carbon fibre for the re-inforcing layer we could even just leave the top sheet clear - that would look .... nice.
One other point - all the shape formers I have seen look like they are one-of-a-kind custom builds. I'd like to look at starting with a pair of forms that are modular i.e. made up of a number of elements held together by rods running lengthwise. That way we can change a modular element to change the ski profile without having to build a seperate former each time. We could change length, camber, contact points, whatever just by swapping out or adding elements. It also means 'tweaking' a design is a doddle This must have been done before its so obvious but I have not seen anyone do it.
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The problem with a solid weight is regulating the pressure all along the ski, it's simple with the compressor and hose to get it exact and at the right level for the epoxy we use.
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slightly disagree - the ski former could be used to spreads the pressure. So as long as it is stiff and accurate enough, the force acting along the entire length of the ski should be the same assuming the weight is roughly evenly distributed. This hose pressure idea works because they are using an air compressor. I'll bet the most common way of achieving the shape in the industry is actually hydraulic pressure and a former, the way they shape car parts. Then they stick each clamped former into an oven to carefully control the drying time/temp. The advantage of this is that the formers can be moved clear of the press to allow more skis to be created. The method the Kams guys use mean you have to wait until creating another pair of skis as the press is blocked for the time it takes for the epoxy to go off. If we can lock, move and seperately heat the formers, we can have more than one set of skis on the go at one time.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Apparently we can dig a moat in the laminated timber we're going to use and melt in P-tex and then just build the ski with sidewall already bonded to the core.
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won't work with P-tex - will work with epoxy. It just won't be as tough but it's easier. Happy to go down that route or just extending the core and ensuring the edge is proofed against water ingress whcih is another way to go.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Using the solid weight means we have to design the top mould to exactly match the bottom, we can just have a general shape up top if we use a compressor. As feef has the compressor it makes sense to use it, it is easily regulated and changed at the turn of a screw/touch of a button.
Happy with however we decide to sidewalls.
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Do either of you two think you could handle the edge bending, I looked at a mechanism they'd built on skibuilders and while it doesn't look hard I imagine it really is.
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leave that to me - I can do it by hand if necessary.
feef,
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I think the first thing we should do is sort out the press
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you are, of course, correct. I'm happy to go with hose/heater method the Kam's use if everyone else is it's just I am a KISS bloke too and if heavy lumps of metal can do the job, I tend to go that way on the KISS principle
I can source the carbon fibre and the wood from a number of suppliers - on-line is the best for hard woods. We can get ready made blanks from the States to start with but you are then more or less stuck with their pattern for your ski. There are places near me that I can get get wood laminates made up but it's not that difficult and I think we should give it a go from the start. It's the heart of the ski and I feel that its the real place that we can make an improvement.
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The laminating technique isn't exactly beyond us, we just need to trim the wood correctly and use the right adhesive, hell you could even use the press to get a decent amont of pressure on it.
We do need to decide on the wood for each core, do we go for a composite core like a couple of skis do like say (ash/poplar or maple/poplar) or just stick to one wood throughout.
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The tried and trusted method for the side walls is to bond P-tex strips then mill it to shape in finishing. By far the easiest is to just make sure the outer layer of the laminate core is a very dense wood and the core is of the correct size, then after final shaping, prep it with a dry rot proofing agent then coats of a diamond hard wood varnish. It's not as hard or resilient as P-tex but it will do the job and it's by far and away the simplest way of doing the sidewalls and the nose.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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How would we deal with skis where there would more than one strip of laminate covering the outside, say a 105mm underfoot and 130 tip and tail?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Using the moat method saves on tip spacers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The laminating technique isn't exactly beyond us, we just need to trim the wood correctly and use the right adhesive, hell you could even use the press to get a decent amont of pressure on it.
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you could but it's not necesary, that's what the re-inforcing layers are for. Also wood glue is generally stronger than wood nowadays so you just have to ensure a reasonably tight even contact with clamps and the glue does the rest. Consistent depth of the wood is created by a planer thicknesser. We can either source one of these or get the wood prepared and quality check it - initally I suggest the latter.
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
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The laminating technique isn't exactly beyond us, we just need to trim the wood correctly and use the right adhesive, hell you could even use the press to get a decent amont of pressure on it.
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you could but it's not necesary, that's what the re-inforcing layers are for. Also wood glue is generally stronger than wood nowadays so you just have to ensure a reasonably tight even contact with clamps and the glue does the rest. Consistent depth of the wood is created by a planer thicknesser. We can either source one of these or get the wood prepared and quality check it - initally I suggest the latter. |
Again.. to start with, let's have as few variables and places to go wrong as possible. I'd suggest sourcing pre-laminated wood core as we can then rely on it's quality and known characteristics. Then if the ski is all floppy, you're not left wondering, is it my reinforcing layer, is it the wood laminate, is it the choice of wood I made for the laminate.
Certainly consider it in the longer term, but in the short term, we want to demonstrate that the process works with as few areas to go wrong as possible, and take it from there.
I envisage the first skis out the press to have no graphic design to speak of, simple filled epoxy sidewalls and that's about it, just to prove that it works. Once we have that and we can produce that consistently, then we can move onto more complex designs and ideas.
Baby steps people.. baby steps.
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You know it makes sense.
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How would we deal with skis where there would more than one strip of laminate covering the outside, say a 105mm underfoot and 130 tip and tail?
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You just create the core so that the hard wood edge extends to where the edge spacers would be, it can be any shape you like (in the your example the outer layer of laminate would have to be at least 30-35mm thick on each side). You simply laminate in the 'excess' hardwood on the edge OR you could laminate in a shaped softer wood piece in side the hardwood edge to get the flare you are suggesting. The only slight issue is the tip and tail spacers since you have to cover the laminate BUT you can do that with fibreglass or carbon fibre. If the tail is not too pronounced then you could probably get away with creating a core that had a hardwood laminate tail as well (i.e. laminate a hard wood piece across the tail after the intial laminate construction) Provided the tip and tail angles are not too aggressive, I'd like to see if you could wrap the tip and tail with the reinforcing sheet. If you could get a good tight bind then that would remove the tip and tail spacer issue and create a better bond. You could epoxy an additonal strip of material under the warp for strength. I think you could do it with a dollop or two of super glue and some creative venting prior to the lay up. There should be enough flex in the reinforcing material to allow the necesary movement when the press is applied. Mmmmmm - food for thought ...
This edging method does force you to make some compromises on your laminate structure i.e. you will get less edge flex this way.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Then if the ski is all floppy, you're not left wondering, is it my reinforcing layer, is it the wood laminate
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best excuse I've ever heard .....
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Poster: A snowHead
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If we use the moat method it honestly looks really simple and we wouldn't need the tip and tail spacers.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Oh and I definitely think a few trial runs are needed, undoubtedly we will have issues.
One worry I have is that the tips and tails have to be so thin to fit into the press and curve that they won't give the strength if we could make it thicker and precurve the tops and tails.
The start of one of Poor Boyz Productions has a scene with a machine that does just that but it looks a bit far for us.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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OK - we buy the cores for now. Just to warn you - at some point I want to do an english core with box and yew and a union jack top sheet (prob ripped from the cover of 'God Save the Queen' by S. Pistols).
NB - if we are going down the epoxy edge route you still need to source the tip and tail material 'cos that moat method is a bug for forming the tip. It can be done but you waste a huge amount of epoxy.
So, to summarise so far:
1) build press NB: valves for the fire hose and the relevant glue/epoxy to secure them to the hose, lengths of fire hose, bloody great bolts to secure the fire hose
2) source: cores, carbon fibre sheet, epoxy, top sheet, p-tex bases, edging strip, super glue (+super glue remover for feef) plastic sheeting, 'film' protective tape, tons of MDF for building the formers and for bulking out the press, epoxy colouring, wood glue, boxes of screws
3) source: clamps (for edging), electric saw with fine metal blade, hand held sanding machine with a variety of graded discs, router with a bevelled edge bit , couple of adjustable saw horses, workbench
3) Graphics: (I know you don't want this but I think we should) sort out a logo and just have that at the tail with the tag line 'Born in the Greater Britain'
... what have I forgotten...? I know we may have some or all of these items (bar the ski materials) but I'm in 'source if I dont know where it's coming from' mode.
For the press what I would like to do is see if there is a lump of contructed metal sitting somewhere already that has either fulfilled it's role or never got started. Something like a box section of a portable crane or the like that we could use as the basis of the press. If it's not quite there we could butress it to bring it up to spec but it would save us a ton of time and effort.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| OK - we buy the cores for now. Just to warn you - at some point I want to do an english core with box and yew and a union jack top sheet (prob ripped from the cover of 'God Save the Queen' by S. Pistols). |
Ahem... as a Scot, I'd suggest the English core has a St George cross.. the British core will have the union flag 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As someone from NI I'm not big in the Geat Britain overtones as I'm not from GB I'm from the UK
I think a logo would be good in fairness.
But lets be fair we've got 8-9 months before we do anything given the season is approaching.
Any names for our "company" and logo suggested?
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Ahem... as a Scot, I'd suggest the English core has a St George cross.. the British core will have the union flag
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box and yew grow in Scotland - I wouldn't suggest a heather core.
I'm loving this united kingdom mix going on - I'm an english/irish mix with ANL tendencies so I tend to avoid St George's cross. I just wanted to make something with a bit of local soul - I'm not committed to any kind of top sheet so whatever makes you guys happy is fine with me.
On a related note I saw a floorboard not long ago made of highly compressed willow (? I think). Whatever, it was a made of highly compressed strands of a UK sourced renewable (the idea was to mimic bamboo locally with a better carbon footprint). Thinking about it now, the charcteristics might make for a very nice core (interweaved heart wood and outer core wood in a tight mesh) and the dimensions would be about right 'as is'. Rather than go for the box/yew striaght away I'll see if I can get my hands on some of this stuff and play around with it a bit. If I can make up some cores from this source it will make a nice multi-drillpoint platform for binding mountings as well. I should be much cheaper than shipping cores from the States as well.
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Any names for our "company" and logo suggested?
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Just a suggestion: 'Plankers' and a Union flag made up of skis of the appropriate colours. Or one of the smiley faces below in ski googles and a kick-back bottom grin (but maybe a diff colour?)? this is off the top of my head - I shall apply more thought.
If this all takes off I've got another ski related product rattling around in my head that I think might have cross over potential to other markets and be part of a linked system of kit.
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I Am Not An Arborist, but I seem to recall that the best yew for longbows didn't come from Britain. Tendency towards being knotty and wiggly, probably cos of the weather. I suspect that most of the same concerns apply to assembling ski cores, too. I won't tell anyone if you source the wood from France, of course.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm more for bespoke skis each time so that I can have a load of skis for what I want to do each day rather than a set ski made a few times for each of us.
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Serriadh, don't be a buzz kill, we'll grow our own yew if we have to! I just choose it becasue of the flex properties, anyway, it was mainly the box I wanted to use. I can source another 'flex' wood instead of yew if need be (still, I'd like it to be yew).
version for the jumps: 'Stick It' referring to the best of landings rather than anything else, you understand. Powder version: 'Barge Pole' (i.e. a very long stick)
If we are going down this route, what about 'Sticky' as a co-op name???
Liking 'Longbow' and 'Agincourt' (although I suspect we should save that name for the 'Cup' version) . Could be the start of a load of 'quiver' related, arrow-type named skis .... 'bodkin', 'blunt', 'broadhead', 'flu-flu', 'quarrel', etc. I think Crossbow is already taken ....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| adamj11 wrote: |
| I'm more for bespoke skis each time so that I can have a load of skis for what I want to do each day rather than a set ski made a few times for each of us. |
well, yeah.. but that will also mean a prototype each time too.
Again, I think if we start out with a 'simple' design that we're all happy with and then press out a few of those for us all to try, and then we can see where we want to go from there.
TBH, the first design I'd make for myself would probably be a direct copy of my Movement Jams. That way I can compare our own product to that of an 'established' company and see if I can work out what, if anything, is different about how they perform.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm more for bespoke skis each time so that I can have a load of skis for what I want to do each day rather than a set ski made a few times for each of us.
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Not sure if I get what you mean but I think the idea would be to set up for one type (that we know works) then do a run so that all the participants get one pair and probably another each (spares) (run of 10-20?). Once that is done we post-mortem, make sure we note down all the tweaky bits in the construction process for that model and move on to the next batch. This method has a number of benefits but the primary one is to keep any ladies releated directly or indirectly to the project invested in it's continuity - i.e. they have the hope that they will benefit ski-wise at some point. Trust me, churning out 'bloke' ski after 'bloke' ski isn't going to feed the love, people. Also we may have some ladies who wish to get involved in the co-op (she-lurkers, speak now or hold your peace). I know that the majority of companies simply tweak a base model and put on pastely colours for ladee skis but there are some fundamental physical differences that need to be addressed in building a female-friendly ski.
Another realted thought - do we want to make each run three or four ski's rather than two?? I've been thinking more about the press. I think the way to go is to get some recoverred RSJ's cut to size then drill holes through the flanges, run large threaded rods with end stops through the flanges then just bolt the whole contraption together with large wing nuts and locking nuts. That will make the whole thing much more portable and also allow us to adapt for size later if we want to do so. I'll do a diagram.
The other thing I want to front run (which is related to the remarks above) as already mentioned, I want to set up at least two modular formers from the 'get go' so that we can play around with alternate shapes, etc. I'm thinking that it might be worthwhile investing in a metalwork shop running us a number of modules, possibly casting them in aluminium or CNC'ing them from stock. Building an MDF former each time will be a pain and subject to error. Happy to go with an MDF type former for the inital run as 'proof of process' if you gents disagree but I really think that the modular set up is the way to go.
Another thing I forgot to add to the list is all the heating related gubbins including a digital PID. This will depend on the power supply although 240v is more than adequate to my mind. feef - do you have 3 phase?
Gent's - I think the time has come to meet up and thrash all this out face-to-face over alcohol. Do you have dates? Weekdays are a pain for me if not in London although I might be able to make a late week night sometimes. If you want to vist a partial building site, I am happy to host just off the North Circular in London otherwise somone needs to suggest a venue. Then we can get anyone else (such as adamj11's m8's) involved/invited and float out an invite to other snowheads (unless we are feeling protective about all this all of a sudden) - what's your will(s)?
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TBH, the first design I'd make for myself would probably be a direct copy of my Movement Jams. That way I can compare our own product to that of an 'established' company and see if I can work out what, if anything, is different about how they perform.
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Happy to go along with this - I like to learn from others and Idris said this was the sensible way to proceed (don't have any Movement 'Jams' so I'm OK  ). TBH - I think sorting out the press, formers and the rest may be enough for us to contemplate at the moment. What we actually do with the whole shebang can wait until we know we have anything do the creating with.
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You know it makes sense.
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BTW - the plank I saw was strand woven Mulberry - I've asked the manufacturer to provide me with a 'raw' sample to see if it suits.
If we use this going forward adamj11 can source a nice 'Mulberry' (the store) floral patten in a mulberry colour for the topsheet fabric and we can call it the 'Mulberry Sandwich' (only kidding).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
Another realted thought - do we want to make each run three or four ski's rather than two?? I've been thinking more about the press. I think the way to go is to get some recoverred RSJ's cut to size then drill holes through the flanges, run large threaded rods with end stops through the flanges then just bolt the whole contraption together with large wing nuts and locking nuts. That will make the whole thing much more portable and also allow us to adapt for size later if we want to do so. I'll do a diagram.
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The only change I'd make to that is to have slots in the upper part of the press rather than holes for the tie rods to locate in, that way you can just slip the tie rod in and tighten it up rather than having to remove the nut, slide the rod through and then put the nut back on. It also works well with the lifting mechanism I have in mind, which could be retrofitted to a basic press. I'll try and sketch something out.
| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
The other thing I want to front run (which is related to the remarks above) as already mentioned, I want to set up at least two modular formers from the 'get go' so that we can play around with alternate shapes, etc. I'm thinking that it might be worthwhile investing in a metalwork shop running us a number of modules, possibly casting them in aluminium or CNC'ing them from stock. Building an MDF former each time will be a pain and subject to error. Happy to go with an MDF type former for the inital run as 'proof of process' if you gents disagree but I really think that the modular set up is the way to go.
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I think an MDF former can be used plenty of times, and even be made in a modular fashion. Especially if you cover it with an alloy sheet which will flex to the shape of the former and help spread the load to the MDF.
I actually have an idea to make an adjustable former, but I'll keep that in my head until I've thrashed out the idea a bit more.
| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
Another thing I forgot to add to the list is all the heating related gubbins including a digital PID. This will depend on the power supply although 240v is more than adequate to my mind. feef - do you have 3 phase?
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3-phase is supplied to the unit, but I don't (as far a I know) have it on my account. I'll check and see if there's anything I need to do to get it enabled.
| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
Gent's - I think the time has come to meet up and thrash all this out face-to-face over alcohol. Do you have dates? Weekdays are a pain for me if not in London although I might be able to make a late week night sometimes. If you want to vist a partial building site, I am happy to host just off the North Circular in London otherwise somone needs to suggest a venue. Then we can get anyone else (such as adamj11's m8's) involved/invited and float out an invite to other snowheads (unless we are feeling protective about all this all of a sudden) - what's your will(s)? |
Where are we all based? There might be somewhere more centrally located to us all..
Also, can we get a definitive list of those who are interested, just so we all know who's up for it, and who's maybe contributing to the thread without wanting to get involved.. equally, any lurkers who DO want to do something but haven't posted.
I'll set up a wiki on one of my servers and we can use that as a shared resource to make notes and share info.
As for opening the idea up.. I'd be quite comfortable with 'open sourcing' our development. What we're doing isn't new, nor is it something that noone else is doing, but there IS the potential to supply others with materials, equipment or expertise if they take an interest in what we're doing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The only change I'd make to that is to have slots in the upper part of the press rather than holes for the tie rods to locate in, that way you can just slip the tie rod in and tighten it up rather than having to remove the nut, slide the rod through and then put the nut back on. It also works well with the lifting mechanism I have in mind, which could be retrofitted to a basic press. I'll try and sketch something out
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that had occured to me too but I was working through on KISS. If we go that way then the bottom of the rod should be a rounded 'T' then we can cut edges of the flange, '90 degree' the cut part and slot the resulting bend to fit the 'T' part of the rod. That way we only have to deal with one set of top nuts and we can roll the rod out to release. Great minds, etc. You could also 'chain link' or 'slot attach' one side of the rods across the top of the press with a seperate bar and then secure the bar with the locking nut on the opposing rod - that way you only have to deal with one set of nuts each time, the bar would act as the washer you would require anyway and you would have additional 'slippage' protection for the rods when they were being tightened.
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I think an MDF former can be used plenty of times, and even be made in a modular fashion. Especially if you cover it with an alloy sheet which will flex to the shape of the former and help spread the load to the MDF.
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had thought of a modular wood/MDF former but I'm a little nervous about how the parts may react to the pressure. It's certainly something to consider. Hadn't thought of the alloy top sheet but am liking it for a number of reasons.
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3-phase is supplied to the unit, but I don't (as far a I know) have it on my account. I'll check and see if there's anything I need to do to get it enabled.
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don't stress it - 240v should be more than adequate for what we need at present, I was just curious.
North London but can travel - prefer weekends if poss. The question about 'open sourcing' was more aimed at commonality of purpose issues rather than IP security. If we are all pulling in different directions it could get messy and the more people involved, the greater the posibility of such a conflict. As long as we are clear when we start I don't think it should be an issue.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| The question about 'open sourcing' was more aimed at commonality of purpose issues rather than IP security. If we are all pulling in different directions it could get messy and the more people involved, the greater the posibility of such a conflict. As long as we are clear when we start I don't think it should be an issue. |
What I'll suggest to deal with that is that we agree on a single, simple ski design, a generic mid-range, laminated, cambered traditional ski and work towards building and acquiring the equipment to make that.
Once we have that, and we are confident that we can churn those out with consistency in quality and finish, then we can eachgo off and invent and design our most bizarre ideas if we want to, safe in the knowledge that the manufacturing process is sound.
That way, we know that if anything fails miserably then it's not the process or the equipment, but the design.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As said, I'm good with that.adamj11, suit u, mysun?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
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I think an MDF former can be used plenty of times, and even be made in a modular fashion. Especially if you cover it with an alloy sheet which will flex to the shape of the former and help spread the load to the MDF.
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had thought of a modular wood/MDF former but I'm a little nervous about how the parts may react to the pressure. It's certainly something to consider. Hadn't thought of the alloy top sheet but am liking it for a number of reasons.
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Considering the manufacturing process for MDF involves the sheet being pressed at pressures of up to 3500MPa (over 500000 PSi) at 200 degrees C, I think our little 100PSi will be fine 
(It will need to be suitable constrained of course)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
Gent's - I think the time has come to meet up and thrash all this out face-to-face over alcohol. Do you have dates? Weekdays are a pain for me if not in London although I might be able to make a late week night sometimes. If you want to vist a partial building site, I am happy to host just off the North Circular in London otherwise somone needs to suggest a venue. Then we can get anyone else (such as adamj11's m8's) involved/invited and float out an invite to other snowheads (unless we are feeling protective about all this all of a sudden) - what's your will(s)? |
I'm currently in the Alps unfortunately and will be until April bar one week or so.
I'm happy for you guys to meet without me obviously and I'll just go along with what you agree to mostly when I'm back.
With regards to the making the moulds, it should be noted that if we did want to make a trial run on a single mould it doesn't limit how wide the ski can be, so we could all have slightly different sets but largely the same construction.
I do think that a mould won't be that hard to make out of MDF, we just need a template and then cut the MDF into shape, line up a load of strips with a small space between each one and then seal over with the likes of Aluminium, this would mean that we could of course start to personalise the skis after just a few trials as I believe a mould such as the above (a non solid one) could be knocked up relatively quickly. I understand where you guys are coming from with wanting to make a set ski each time but we have to remember that we all ski differently and are probably all varied in height.
As for a first mould, what sort of camber/rocker are you thinking, I've been skiing 2011 Line Chronic Cryptonites for the past season along side some rented Rossi bandits and like you say it would be interesting to see how our skis compare to the factory built ones, of course we could tweak a design a little to appeal more to what we want.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Just read a few posts, as I said I'm up for the first run of a simple ski to get the process right, maybe even make a few extras just in case it turns out great.
It seems my suggestion for the aluminium sheet over the MDF for the mould has already been covered and I agree that a modular MDF mould design could be done, the only issue is lining up joints when using different cambers and lengths, think we would need to give ourselves a bit of lee way on the first tip and tail sections so we can drop down others just in case.
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| adamj11 wrote: |
| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
Gent's - I think the time has come to meet up and thrash all this out face-to-face over alcohol. Do you have dates? Weekdays are a pain for me if not in London although I might be able to make a late week night sometimes. If you want to vist a partial building site, I am happy to host just off the North Circular in London otherwise somone needs to suggest a venue. Then we can get anyone else (such as adamj11's m8's) involved/invited and float out an invite to other snowheads (unless we are feeling protective about all this all of a sudden) - what's your will(s)? |
I'm currently in the Alps unfortunately and will be until April bar one week or so.
I'm happy for you guys to meet without me obviously and I'll just go along with what you agree to mostly when I'm back. |
I may have missed it in other posts, but where in the Alps are you? I'll be in Tignes and Cham this season and it might be worth meeting up, just a for a beer and a chinwag. Always good to meet people and get a feel for them before you get too far down the road.
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Doing a season in Meribel.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I know adamj11's building a chalet (one of my other long term goals).
If you want to meet up in the Alps I can be in Les Arcs at various times over the season. I was also planning to be in Tignes/Val D and Cham at some point but not sure when. If you guys want to meet 'in the middle' I can offer a room/breakfast in Les Arcs for a couple of nights but I need to know dates very soon - prob some time in early/mid Feb. If you want to make it some other time - tell me and I'll try to sort it out.
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Just read a few posts, as I said I'm up for the first run of a simple ski to get the process right, maybe even make a few extras just in case it turns out great.
It seems my suggestion for the aluminium sheet over the MDF for the mould has already been covered and I agree that a modular MDF mould design could be done, the only issue is lining up joints when using different cambers and lengths, think we would need to give ourselves a bit of lee way on the first tip and tail sections so we can drop down others just in case.
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Happy with the multiple run approach - my view on a test is that it's just the first of a run. If it comes out perfect, it wasn't a test, just No.1!
My only concern with modular wooden formers is 'creep' (heat/cold/moisture) which can distort the shape. If we use hard wood and metal sheet that issue should be more or less dealt with but the cost of doing so combined with the decreasing cost of the metal equivalent has meant that most people opt for the harder wearing metal equivalent nowadays. There's no question that a non-modular MDF former would be the cheapest one off solution but that would have a limited life. For the metal version we can just cut steel box section to the correct dimensions from a single length and apply a CNC'd ''skim' layer on top to form the individual shapes. That should deal with all the levelling issues, be quicker, much more accurate, remove the need to 'sheet' wooden formers and would be very unlikley to 'creep'. It may even be cheaper in the long run.
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As for a first mould, what sort of camber/rocker are you thinking, I've been skiing 2011 Line Chronic Cryptonites for the past season along side some rented Rossi bandits and like you say it would be interesting to see how our skis compare to the factory built ones, of course we could tweak a design a little to appeal more to what we want.
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feef made a suggestion above based on his current ride. I'm happy to go with whatever you two want to do as it's very unlikely that my style/dimensions will suit you two. I ski hard so anything that's longish and can take a pounding get's my vote but, as said, it's unlikley one size will fit all. I think we should decide if we want to do an 'all mountain' ski or a more focussed plank. The Chronics seem to be a great 'all mountain' with symmetrical twin tips camber and rocker so I happy to go with that for a test. I ski Line Prophets (thanks very much, Doc) sometimes so I'm good with general apporoach of Line. The real punch of this ski comes from the core so unless we are planning to duplicate that (what is it anyway?) then we will prob get a different ski in any event. feefs' Movement Jams are a more focussed ski with a tight poplar/beech laminate core and are actually a slightly more technical ski in that it's a piste ski with powder potential due to the early riser. It don't like parks, moguls or the back country, It will however kick @rse on the Chronics on piste.
Choose your poison, gentlemen, but bear in mind that the core plays a really big part of both these skis and the dimensions, cut and mounting points are based on the cores.
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The bulk of the press can be designed and built long before we need to worry about the mould, and is far from a trivial undertaking in itself.. let's concentrate on that first
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FAQ
