 Poster: A snowHead
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I run a fair bit, with at least one 10 miler a week, however I'd like to target my gym sessions a little more over the next few months in preperation for the Army Championships. I'll be competing in all four conventional Alpine events (no Ski-X I'm afraid..  )
Any advice greatfully recieved!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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IanB, I've been meaning to ask just this question for ages, so I'm looking forward to the response. Apart from mountainbiking I go to the gym about three times a week (run on one day, cycle on one day and do a weight circuit on the other day) and play 5-a-side once a week (midfield dynamo - no skill but keep running and kicking people).
Any suggestions for tinkering with that would be welcome.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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IanB,
The last edition of BASI news had an excellent article on this topic written by Emma C-A, with the second part in the next edition. If you can get hold of a copy have a read of it, if not let me know and I will attempt to summarise!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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spyderjon, Get yourself over to the Too Much Flesh thread, you'll find a well rounded welcome 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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http://www.skimag.com/skimag/fitness/article/0,12795,694905,00.html
Give this a try. I am training for racing at the moment and try to do a few different things.
The main thing is to build:
Overall strength (especially legs)
Ski specific strength - mainly legs again but trying to do things that last about 1 minute and give the kind of burn you get in a race. This really hurts but I have got great strength improvement results.
Overall fitness - it is worth doing some cardio stuff to get rid of a bit of excess fat.
Explosive power work - plyometrics and olympic weightlifting
Sprint/hill training again to try to replicate the strain on your body over a 1minute- ish course.
The main thing is to try to get your body good at adapting to a range of different stresses and don't overtrain. I never do two leg sessions in two days and try to mix things up so you don't get really tired. I am doing about 9 to 10 sessions a week at the moment and do not have any symptoms or problems of overtraining just by varying day to day what I am doing.
If you want a sample of what I do I am happy to try to work out a typical week and post it.
I am sure lots of people will disagree with lots of this - I have done loads of research and everyone seems to contradict themselves but this has worked really well for me so far.
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WAITINGFORWINTER I'd like to seeyour programme as I've done lots of weights before including drop sets to get a good burn but it never works when I ski! 
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Just a quick reply on getting a good burn - will try to find time to write the rest later.
Try doing front squats (bar bell on your chest with arms crossed over). Pick a weight that is about 50 - 60% of your 1 rep max and keep doing squats at a reasonable pace for 1 minute. If it is easy and does not burn then increase the weight until you can only just manage it for 1 minute and it burns by the end.
Or try leg press machine or leg extension machine using the same principal. After a good three sets on these I can hardly walk down stairs - you will really feel the burn!! Build up to this though - it has taken a good few months for me to know my limits on this and inspite of stair problem above to start with my legs recover very quickly. I would leave weights for a couple of days after but I am fine for a bit of cross training that afternoon as it uses the muscle in a very different way.
You can also try doing cleans from the floor using the above timing but when I started this I did find that my arms gave out before my legs. With improved technique this is not such a problem.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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b]marc gledhill[/b], without knowing exactly what your weekly training schedule is, or much about you, it's impossible to evaluate what you need to do to "improve" your training.
But as a broad idea: if you're already dedicated to a particular sport then when you go to the gym don't keep working the same muscles involved in your sport - they're already well exercised - and focus on the muscles which don't get much use during your sport.
IanB already does a fair amount of running. And marc gledhill also already does a fair amount of running (treadmill and footie) as well as biking (MTB and stationary). In which case, when you guys go to the gym, there's little to be gained in spending more time on the cardio equipment. And as your quads, hamstrings, calves, and glutes are already getting enough hammering there's little point in focusing much on standard weights for them.
To "improve" your training for skiing, spend the majority of your time at the gym focusing on improving your core and upper body strength and endurance, particularly your core strength as this vital for good skiing. Spend some time on your legs but rather than heading for the weights, rely instead on the polymetric (explosive) exercises that waitingforwinter mentioned.
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I would agree with that to an extent but to improve your strength and performance in any sport you are not going to improve as much as you could just by practising a sport. You will improve to an extent but to get stronger you need to do weights that will take you muscles beyond the stresses that they experience during your chosen sport. That way they will grow and adapt and make you stronger for your sport. Just by doing your sport will only put enough strain on those muscles to maintain a certain level - not go beyond.
Muscles need a series of stresses and recoveries to get stronger, you need to overload the muscle to allow it to recover and get stronger in the process.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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there is also that thing of 'match fitness' though. No matter what training you do, nothing can quite prepare you for that activity as doing it. A combination of specific intensive work and actual activity works for me very well. I do allsorts in the gym, mountain biking and triathlon this year really helped my last trip a month ago.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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agreed there is no subsitute for actually being there and skiing - but even the world cup guys who ski pretty much all year round use weight training - you need to get stronger to get better as well as improving technique etc.
I guess you just have to replicate the stresses and get as strong as you can when you can't get on snow.
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waitingforwinter, agreed. There are skiing-specific exercises IanB could do. But as I mentioned earlier, without knowing exactly what his current training schedule involves, it's impossible to evaluate whether it's worth his while to do them. In any case, if he's going to do "exercises" then they should be as close a mimic of skiing itself - so ploymetrics (burpies, standing jumps etc) rather than weights machines.
Also, there's a cyclical nature to good sports-specific training. Pre-season training often focuses on weight training the relevant muscles (in this case thighs, hamstrings, core) in order to force adaption. However during the season the focus changes - ceasing to focus on the muscles that are being worked out during the sport, and working on those that aren't.
There is an internal logic to it - why waste energy forcing your body to adapt beyond what's necessary in order for it to perform adequately?
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You know it makes sense.
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There is an internal logic to it - why waste energy forcing your body to adapt beyond what's necessary in order for it to perform adequately?
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Because if you are going to excel at something then you need to make you muscles perfom more than adequately - otherwise you are relying entirely on improving technique to get better and faster. For this very reason plyometrics should be used in conjunction with weights to improve results. Plyometrics will mimic the skiing movements and weight training will allow the muscles to get stronger - actually improving the results and the performance during skiing and the plyometric exercises. Improving technique alone can only get you so far.
For example a top rugby player will not stop using weights during the season just because his legs get a good workout playing and running through drills. Admitedly during the season you would focus less on these kind of exercises than you would in the off season but you still need to have an element of it to improve during the season - obviously you have to manage the amount you train to avoid over training and burn out but it can all be fitted in.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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waitingforwinter, mmmm. We could go on for quite some time about the finer points of this, for little gain. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm for the "adequate in order to beat the competition" approach. You seem to prefer the "all out better than everyone in the world" approach.
If you and I both drew up training schedules for IanB we'd probably list the same exercises, but in different proportions because of our approach to sport. But as long as it's applied with adequate knowledge of sports conditioning and physiology, there's nothing wrong with either approach.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm happy with that. Agreed it depends what you are racing for - fun or results and how much time/effort you can and want to put in.
I do believe that if I am going to do something I want it to be the best I can give it allowing for time. Not for everyone - I just get a bit addicted to training once I get going.
Hmmm next challenge after racing - I am determined to complete an iron man triathlon so you get my gist!!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Been away for a few days so apologies for my lack of input!
But thanks for the suggestions - my legs are fairly well developed after competing at a junior level at MTB about 12 years back - my thighs and calfs have never returned to normal!
I'll probably do some more sprint based training, if only to offset how quickly my legs will start screaming a little! Maybe some low weight/high repetition weight work with my legs? I don't feel strength is really a problem as I can leg press a good part of a stack of weights - but my endurance doing so could probably be impoved upon.
Would it be a reasonable approch to just see it as getting myself to cope with maximum effort for 2 minutes - obviously alongside my normal running regime.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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IanB having well developed legs is one thing - whether they're still in adequate condition for skiing is another! (about 12yrs ago Mr Manda used to fence for NZ and has very shapely thighs as a result. Now rather flabby tho, wouldn't withstand competition jousting!)
Like I said, it's hard to know what YOU need to focus on without knowing a hell of a lot of detail about your current fitness and your training schedule - just not possible in web-posts.
However. If you need to work on endurance, then fartlek (interval) training is good for improving cardio endurance.
In terms of "weights" i.e. overloading the muscle, it makes more sense to encourage muscle endurance rather than pure strength (which can easily end up just pure size without functional ability). To that end so it makes sense to be do plyometrics. Low weight/high rep weights are ok, but they focus only on a small range of movement, within just one muscle group (and often within just one muscle). Plyometrics by contrast, mimic the action you would use during the sport and thereby work the whole of the relevant muscle groups and so create better results than weights (to a point).
There's also the option of carrying out plyometric exercises with resistence (e.g. strapping on very light ankle weights), but you need to know what you're doing otherwise it's a sure way to injury.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Not necessarily a suggestion, but I was looking at some clips of gyms sessions with AJ Bear (WC downhiller) this evening.
Pretty impressive. One was a one legged jump onto an exercise beam, about chest height, off a "run up" of two paces (i.e. start on left foot, walk forward to right foot, jump off left, land on beam on left foot). Others were proprioceptor exercises, jumping onto 3' diameter squishy balls sitting on a wooden gym floor. In one he jumped from the floor onto the top of the ball, briefly stabilised on it, then jumped onto the next in line, then the next (which he screwed up an fell flat on his back). The next was him sitting on a ball, then swinging his legs around to kneel on the ball, then continue his legs around so he was sitting back on the ball again. The final was a vault runup, bounce on trampoline up to about 10' off the ground then land the jump square on the ball (this was actually made a bit easier by the ball actually being on a gym matress).
Staggering...I'd have broken something serious attempting any one of those!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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it makes more sense to encourage muscle endurance
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But it is not an endurance event that he is training for. You average race lasts for arguments sake about 1 minute. Hardly what can be called an endurance event. You will get from your muscles what you train them for. So build up strength with weights and then try things like doing as many reps as possible so that at the end of 1 min you are knackered. Next time you do it see if you can do more reps and then when one minute becomes easy increase the weight. The keys is not thinking that any one exercise will be a miracle cure.
As agreed in earlier posts plyometrics will help but an overall increase in strength will make the performance in racing and plyometrics better. You need to have a rounded workout schedule that will take in to account ski specific training and overall increase in strength that will also help. To be honest each type of exercise aids the other - don't just hammer away at one specific type of exercise. Your body needs to be stimulated to cope with a wide range of stresses -so mix it up a bit and you also won't get bored of the same old exercises. That way you will not just get size without functional ability - you will get strength and the power you get from plyometrics. Another way to make the weights you do more effective is to avoid the weights machines that tend to isolate one particular muscle. If you can use free weights then you are training all tiny muscle fibres that you need to balance the weights during the exercise. It also trains timing, coordination and balance - all important parts of skiing.
Power is the product of a force and the speed (power).Power is a combination of strength and speed. So for plyometrics to work you need both. This will then translate better in to your skiing
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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waitingforwinter,
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If you can use free weights then you are training all tiny muscle fibres that you need to balance the weights during the exercise
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Yes, but you also need to know which freeweights exercises were appropriate, as a number of freeweight movements have a tendency to recruit only a limited number of muscles, in which case the effect is limited (about the same as using a machine for that same movement). The other problem is that the most effective freeweight exercises involve a wide range of movement which requires either you know what you're doing, or a trainer who knows what you're doing, otherwise injury is very likely.
In principle I agree that weights are "good" in that they overload the muscle and force adaptation. And if I could assess IanB properly, and knew that he was able to execute them properly, I'd throw some weight training into his schedule. But I wouldn't want on this forum to start advocating certain weights exercises due to the risk that inexperienced folk will start throwing weights around and injure themselves.
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get a swiss ball!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One legged squats are great - always seem to be hard no matter how many regular squats I can do regardless of the weight I can lift! They help balance too - if you can do more than about 10 on one leg without feeling the burn then you aren't doing it right!
Try some regular squats with a barbell, front squats with a barbell.
Multi directional lunges with a bar or dumbells (just means you lunge diagonally and backwards as well as forwards.
Dead lifts are a great way of improving over all leg strength.
For all of the above please get someone in the gym to show you the right way to do them - it is very easy just to have a go and injury you back etc if you do not use the right form. I can only tell you what I have been using and works for me - someone else will need to show you the safest way of lifting. If you can train with someone else it is the best way to do it - good for motivation and they can watch to check you are holding good form and help you out if you are finding a set difficult.
Like Manda says don't try the above without getting some technique from a pro first - it will be well worth it in the long run even if you have pay for a session for them to show you the ropes.
If you want a good book on plyometrics try "High Powered Plyometrics" by James Radcliffe and Robert Farentinos. You can buy it on Amazon and has a list at the back of progressive work outs for different sports.
Good luck
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I tried the Skier's Edge machines at the ski show yesterday. Pricey but very impressive & good for balance also.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Well.. race camp in T -9 days.. and I still don't feel fit enough; just have to see.. although I can't wait to be on snow again! 
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