 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Above post edited to include the link I left out the 1st time!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nice but pointless
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Look pretty cool...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I like them just cos they're different 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hah.. yeah right!!
| Quote: |
1 pair of bamboo Panda Poles - 120 cm $85.00
Bamboo Style: Roasted $25.00
Grip Style: Braaap Grip
Strap Style: Fatty Kush $15.00
Subtotal $145.00
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If someone wants to pay me $85, I will fashion them something almost identical out of the bamboo growing through from my neighbours garden. It won't have the carbon footprint of imported bamboo from Vietnam or India either.
It won't have the patented low drag basket, we'll just knock something together with an old basket out of the reject bin at the local slope. More environmental like, and handles made out of any old grippy tape I find in the garage.
Once again, Monium Engineering to the rescue. I'll call them Bamboozles or Enviropoles or something.
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Yeah, I liked the look, not the price.
If Monium Engineering need help testing the poles, let me know - I'll happily go skiing to try them out (all expenses met by M.E of course!).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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$85 is ok for an original product if it was complete (ie included straps) - the upgrade options seem pricey though, obviously going for those who are price insensitive with those. Grips look like they're for park monkeys though.
The environmental angle seems like the usual greenwash bollux to me - a bunch of stoners have sat round saying "you know what would be cool" then have tried to justify why it's better than the alternatives. The greenest ski poles are the ones you fish out of a bin behind the hire shop or get for £5 at a charity shop.
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But do they make adjustable poles?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| But do they make adjustable poles? |
Yes, they do a set that get longer, but only very very slowly.. You also need to contend with the fact they have roots instead of baskets
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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feef, 
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$145 is the price for the premium model with hand sewn Fatty Kush straps and Premium "Roasted" bamboo. The base price for a pole with simple "Reg" strap is $95 which is the same price you would pay for a pair of high end poles made in China by somebody who doesn't care about skiing at all. Panda Poles are hand-crafted in the Wasatch mountains of Utah by Free skiers like Oakley White-Allen (5th on the Freeride World Tour 2012) https://vimeo.com/31267683 and are the most durable intergalactic ski poles in the galaxy, coming with 180 day warranty https://vimeo.com/33331758. $95 is a lot to spend on something as simple as poles, but for somebody who does like to have a great set of hand made poles and wants to reduce their impact on the eco system, Panda Poles are a lot better than your World Cup aluminum Poles at the same price.
| feef wrote: |
Hah.. yeah right!!
| Quote: |
1 pair of bamboo Panda Poles - 120 cm $85.00
Bamboo Style: Roasted $25.00
Grip Style: Braaap Grip
Strap Style: Fatty Kush $15.00
Subtotal $145.00
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You know it makes sense.
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TanSnowMan, Thanks for coming on and engaging. We don't doubt you love the sport and I can guess they're a high quality product but I think highest I've ever paid for poles is about $60 in the sale for BD flicklocks. I stand by my contention that any old used poles are more environmentally friendly. Quite like your no snag baskets - ar eyou going to be licensing those designs?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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We are lucky in this world that there appears to be "a few born every minute"! As a result, paying multiple times over the odds for any product will have a large market! Good luck to them, but as saint Theo would say "I'm out"!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just an FYI... Green washing is when a company says that their product is a 'green' or 'sustainable' product when in fact it does little for actual sustainable practices (i.e. calling bottled water 'green' just because they use 30% less plastic than the original bottle design). There is nothing at all on Panda Poles website that suggests that these poles are a 'Green' product (when in fact they are one of the most sustainable retail options available in the ski industry). In fact it is stated on the "Manifesto" page http://www.pandapoles.com/pages/manifesto that Panda Poles are not the end all of sustainable products (because of shipping, etc.). With that being said however, Panda Poles are a lot better option for our planet's ecosystems than Standard aluminum or carbon fiber poles--which are also shipped from Asia. All the emissions from shipping Panda Poles are offset (plus some) by the bamboo grove itself which consumes 35% more CO2 than an equivalent stand of trees--just to name one of the benefits of bamboo http://www.pandapoles.com/pages/benefits-of-bamboo. Sure, used poles are the 'greenest' option, but how do you get an industry to change just by telling people to stop buying new poles and fish them out of trash cans or purchase from ski swaps? Most people just don't operate that way. You have to give them a more viable retail option to actually create real change in a consumer world. And as for the stoner comment, isn't it amazing that apparent 'stoners' could even create an internationally recognized business? Have you ever tried starting a business. Good luck!
Anyhow, it is honorable that you are an environmental watchdog for apparent "greenwashers". We need more people who actually care about such things, and for that, I commend you...
| fatbob wrote: |
$85 is ok for an original product if it was complete (ie included straps) - the upgrade options seem pricey though, obviously going for those who are price insensitive with those. Grips look like they're for park monkeys though.
The environmental angle seems like the usual greenwash bollux to me - a bunch of stoners have sat round saying "you know what would be cool" then have tried to justify why it's better than the alternatives. The greenest ski poles are the ones you fish out of a bin behind the hire shop or get for £5 at a charity shop. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks for your well intentioned engagement also. Yes, the basket design is a patented product... And just so you know, the last pair of poles I bought before Panda Poles was a pair of used $5 Rossignols from a ski swap. It is the best way to go, but what Panda is trying to do is help initiate some change on an industry wide level, which involves the incorporation of a 'better' retail option. I suggest you read the Panda Poles manifesto page to get a better idea of the reasoning behind the product and the movement the company is trying to promote.
| fatbob wrote: |
| TanSnowMan, Thanks for coming on and engaging. We don't doubt you love the sport and I can guess they're a high quality product but I think highest I've ever paid for poles is about $60 in the sale for BD flicklocks. I stand by my contention that any old used poles are more environmentally friendly. Quite like your no snag baskets - ar eyou going to be licensing those designs? |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you can make anything even close to the same quality, I'll give you $200 for them. So, just let me know when they're ready. Talk to you in what... a couple years?
| Monium wrote: |
If someone wants to pay me $85, I will fashion them something almost identical out of the bamboo growing through from my neighbours garden. It won't have the carbon footprint of imported bamboo from Vietnam or India either.
It won't have the patented low drag basket, we'll just knock something together with an old basket out of the reject bin at the local slope. More environmental like, and handles made out of any old grippy tape I find in the garage.
Once again, Monium Engineering to the rescue. I'll call them Bamboozles or Enviropoles or something. |
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| TanSnowMan wrote: |
If you can make anything even close to the same quality, I'll give you $200 for them. So, just let me know when they're ready. Talk to you in what... a couple years?
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You were doing so well up until the last three grammatically incorrect words.
You are aware that I have a degree in Manufacturing Engineering and have a massive workshop with one of the best cars in the country (that I built including a full leather interior and oak framed hood, by hand) right? Want to see a picture?
You couldn't afford my time for one pair at $200. I have four engines to build. But if you were prepared to pay $2K for the first batch of 10 they'd land on your doorstep in 2 weeks. And they'd be better quality than you guys are knocking out right now - for starters I would get a decent machinist doing the strap design. I'd even machine those fancy baskets instead of just digging some old ones out of the bin at the local slope.
You came on here and introduced yourself quite nicely. Now you are doing the equivalent of butting in to someone else's conversation in the pub and being Johnny Bigbollocks. This I consider rude, and I love someone who thinks they know everything - because I can guarantee that they don't.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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TanSnowMan, why not get a factory in the far east, where you are buying your raw material, to put them together for you and ship them over as complete product instead of shipping all these separate components from all over the place and spending hours of western labour at $10 an hour when a factory in the far east could manufacture an affordable product for you at half the cost? Green is great - it is the right thing to do when it is practical. The cost is what stops your product being practical and scaleable. The number of people who will buy $85 poles is very small. The number of people who would buy your new and improved $40 poles could be groundbreaking and genuinely drive some environmental change. Plus your profit margin would probably be better, so you could spend more time on the slopes and less time in a dingy workshop knocking out ski poles.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Just to let you know, I didn't mean much offense. But when I hear someone compare Panda Poles to something they can just chop out of their neighbors garden, pop on some baskets out of the bin and throw together a pair of poles with wrapped grips for $85, I call them out on it. If you understand manufacturing, you would understand that sourcing all those parts takes longer than a couple weeks, not to mention even finding the type of bamboo strong enough to make ski poles with a 180 day warranty. I may have jumped in on the conversation, but it's a forum. And why does my grammar matter? Have you seen the grammar in forums? Your self defense is not so becoming. I do appreciate your spirit though. Good day sir...
| Monium wrote: |
| TanSnowMan wrote: |
If you can make anything even close to the same quality, I'll give you $200 for them. So, just let me know when they're ready. Talk to you in what... a couple years?
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You were doing so well up until the last three grammatically incorrect words.
You are aware that I have a degree in Manufacturing Engineering and have a massive workshop with one of the best cars in the country (that I built including a full leather interior and oak framed hood, by hand) right? Want to see a picture?
You couldn't afford my time for one pair at $200. I have four engines to build. But if you were prepared to pay $2K for the first batch of 10 they'd land on your doorstep in 2 weeks. And they'd be better quality than you guys are knocking out right now - for starters I would get a decent machinist doing the strap design. I'd even machine those fancy baskets instead of just digging some old ones out of the bin at the local slope.
You came on here and introduced yourself quite nicely. Now you are doing the equivalent of butting in to someone else's conversation in the pub and being Johnny Bigbollocks. This I consider rude, and I love someone who thinks they know everything - because I can guarantee that they don't. |
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I've got a few bamboo canes in the garage, I'll knock mesel' up a couple of pairs for next season.
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TanSnowMan, I like your spirit but as potential consumers and to be honest people who are largely titting about you don't have to argue each and every point with all of us. My stoner comment was a light hearted way of saying I think they are a solution in search of a problem for me. Maybe I'm wrong and there's a whole load of people out there who are thinking - you know what regular ski poles aren't strong enough or eco-friendly enough for me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| TanSnowMan wrote: |
Just to let you know, I didn't mean much offense. But when I hear someone compare Panda Poles to something they can just chop out of their neighbors garden, pop on some baskets out of the bin and throw together a pair of poles with wrapped grips for $85, I call them out on it. If you understand manufacturing, you would understand that sourcing all those parts takes longer than a couple weeks, not to mention even finding the type of bamboo strong enough to make ski poles with a 180 day warranty. I may have jumped in on the conversation, but it's a forum. And why does my grammar matter? Have you seen the grammar in forums? Your self defense is not so becoming. I do appreciate your spirit though. Good day sir...
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Erm, you are the one here to defend a product that we have gently ridiculed. Hence, as you are representing a company, your grammar matters. I don't mind you jumping in at all, but you might want to think about your brand when you jump in unexpectedly and decide to be a bit confrontational.
I was joking, but really not joking that much - I am confident that what we are looking at is just fairly strong bamboo that costs about £2 a stick in the UK. The advantage of the massive bamboo plant growing through my fence from the neighbours garden is that I can choose the size and length required and cut it fresh for manufacture, so it will be stronger than a pole dried and then cut in your US factory, the process of cutting and securing fittings to it is better done when it is soft in my experience of working with bamboo, as it does become brittle over time - this is of course something you will have thoroughly researched.
But if you are paying $2K for my first batch I'll give you a 180 day warranty too. Except as always that doesn't cover damage, just reasonable wear and tear. I'd expect any pole to survive 180 days of wear and tear in normal use.
Finally I don't even see why we are debating this. You can't sell your product in the UK, or anywhere else in Europe for that matter. It has no CE mark. We might as well be debating whether making skis out of dwarf bone is a good idea.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sorry, going to have to leave this for a bit, out to the garden to get some bamboo. Photos coming shortly.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Monium, Hope your paying your neighbour a fairtrade price or royalty.
BTW I'm still waiting for those bootwarmers from the great Monium Engineering stable, you're a dreamer not a biznizman 
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TanSnowMan, Ooo, half a dozen posts, taking onMonium, Good luck. But I know where my money is going
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You know it makes sense.
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fatbob, my open source policy on the designs mean you needed to go and find your own wetsuit to cut into bits. I am just the ideas guy. Partly because I did the sums, and to make a million would require me to sell approximately half a million pairs, and there aren't that many people that will ski when it is below minus 20.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I like them! But then I wouldn't buy them. My poles are cheap, old and battered and I can leave them outside a hut because nobody would want them.
Rich people might buy them for the "someone who has everything". I bet that Vicky Beckham has someone to guard her skis and poles whilst she pops in for a bit of après ski  .
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Poster: A snowHead
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This isn't a bad idea, however, we are trying to create a local industry, supporting passionate skiers in our area, while at the same time creating a product that is not only endorsed by, but made by free skiers for free skiers. And you would be surprised how many people pay $120 for world cup aluminum poles that don't come with a warranty or Zero Drag Baskets. All the parts for the poles are made in the USA accept for the bamboo and the recycled PET and hemp straps. We plan to be growing our own bamboo in the Southern US someday, but for now, Asia is one of our only options for large quantities of this specific species of super strong bamboo. Thanks for the ideas though.
| Monium wrote: |
| TanSnowMan, why not get a factory in the far east, where you are buying your raw material, to put them together for you and ship them over as complete product instead of shipping all these separate components from all over the place and spending hours of western labour at $10 an hour when a factory in the far east could manufacture an affordable product for you at half the cost? Green is great - it is the right thing to do when it is practical. The cost is what stops your product being practical and scaleable. The number of people who will buy $85 poles is very small. The number of people who would buy your new and improved $40 poles could be groundbreaking and genuinely drive some environmental change. Plus your profit margin would probably be better, so you could spend more time on the slopes and less time in a dingy workshop knocking out ski poles. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Awesome! I can't wait to see what you come up with...
| Monium wrote: |
| Sorry, going to have to leave this for a bit, out to the garden to get some bamboo. Photos coming shortly. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Panda Poles are available in the UK from www.pandapoles.com, with shipping at $40 for one pair and $15 for subsequent pairs. The poles will also be available in the UK from Snow + Rock beginning in September. Contact them to find out which stores will be carrying Panda Poles... Thanks for your offer for the run of 10 pair at $2000. One pair is enough though. I would be thrilled if you could make a pair of poles and I challenge you to it. You originally stated that you could make a pair for $85 and I said I would pay you $200. I would pay you $200 just for the photos of your "knock off" Panda Poles. But they have to be done in 2 weeks as you promised.
| Monium wrote: |
| TanSnowMan wrote: |
Just to let you know, I didn't mean much offense. But when I hear someone compare Panda Poles to something they can just chop out of their neighbors garden, pop on some baskets out of the bin and throw together a pair of poles with wrapped grips for $85, I call them out on it. If you understand manufacturing, you would understand that sourcing all those parts takes longer than a couple weeks, not to mention even finding the type of bamboo strong enough to make ski poles with a 180 day warranty. I may have jumped in on the conversation, but it's a forum. And why does my grammar matter? Have you seen the grammar in forums? Your self defense is not so becoming. I do appreciate your spirit though. Good day sir...
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Erm, you are the one here to defend a product that we have gently ridiculed. Hence, as you are representing a company, your grammar matters. I don't mind you jumping in at all, but you might want to think about your brand when you jump in unexpectedly and decide to be a bit confrontational.
I was joking, but really not joking that much - I am confident that what we are looking at is just fairly strong bamboo that costs about £2 a stick in the UK. The advantage of the massive bamboo plant growing through my fence from the neighbours garden is that I can choose the size and length required and cut it fresh for manufacture, so it will be stronger than a pole dried and then cut in your US factory, the process of cutting and securing fittings to it is better done when it is soft in my experience of working with bamboo, as it does become brittle over time - this is of course something you will have thoroughly researched.
But if you are paying $2K for my first batch I'll give you a 180 day warranty too. Except as always that doesn't cover damage, just reasonable wear and tear. I'd expect any pole to survive 180 days of wear and tear in normal use.
Finally I don't even see why we are debating this. You can't sell your product in the UK, or anywhere else in Europe for that matter. It has no CE mark. We might as well be debating whether making skis out of dwarf bone is a good idea. |
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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That's the spirit! I would be authentically charmed if anybody in this forum made a pair of bamboo ski poles and sent me photos. It feels great to know that Panda Poles might be inspiring people to think differently about their equipment and taking charge of making their own gear. The more power to you!
| halfhand wrote: |
| I've got a few bamboo canes in the garage, I'll knock mesel' up a couple of pairs for next season. |
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Oh, and they have to be somewhat decent looking, and durable...
| TanSnowMan wrote: |
Panda Poles are available in the UK from www.pandapoles.com, with shipping at $40 for one pair and $15 for subsequent pairs. The poles will also be available in the UK from Snow + Rock beginning in September. Contact them to find out which stores will be carrying Panda Poles... Thanks for your offer for the run of 10 pair at $2000. One pair is enough though. I would be thrilled if you could make a pair of poles and I challenge you to it. You originally stated that you could make a pair for $85 and I said I would pay you $200. I would pay you $200 just for the photos of your "knock off" Panda Poles. But they have to be done in 2 weeks as you promised.
| Monium wrote: |
| TanSnowMan wrote: |
Just to let you know, I didn't mean much offense. But when I hear someone compare Panda Poles to something they can just chop out of their neighbors garden, pop on some baskets out of the bin and throw together a pair of poles with wrapped grips for $85, I call them out on it. If you understand manufacturing, you would understand that sourcing all those parts takes longer than a couple weeks, not to mention even finding the type of bamboo strong enough to make ski poles with a 180 day warranty. I may have jumped in on the conversation, but it's a forum. And why does my grammar matter? Have you seen the grammar in forums? Your self defense is not so becoming. I do appreciate your spirit though. Good day sir...
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Erm, you are the one here to defend a product that we have gently ridiculed. Hence, as you are representing a company, your grammar matters. I don't mind you jumping in at all, but you might want to think about your brand when you jump in unexpectedly and decide to be a bit confrontational.
I was joking, but really not joking that much - I am confident that what we are looking at is just fairly strong bamboo that costs about £2 a stick in the UK. The advantage of the massive bamboo plant growing through my fence from the neighbours garden is that I can choose the size and length required and cut it fresh for manufacture, so it will be stronger than a pole dried and then cut in your US factory, the process of cutting and securing fittings to it is better done when it is soft in my experience of working with bamboo, as it does become brittle over time - this is of course something you will have thoroughly researched.
But if you are paying $2K for my first batch I'll give you a 180 day warranty too. Except as always that doesn't cover damage, just reasonable wear and tear. I'd expect any pole to survive 180 days of wear and tear in normal use.
Finally I don't even see why we are debating this. You can't sell your product in the UK, or anywhere else in Europe for that matter. It has no CE mark. We might as well be debating whether making skis out of dwarf bone is a good idea. |
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His grammar is fine, Americans always do that... (i.e., "couple poles" rather than "couple of poles"). Not really a cardinal offence in any case.
I wouldn't buy them, but I'm sure others will.
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TanSnowMan, now you are getting it. Thanks for the more positive approach. I am investing a great deal of time in this project, and have cleared out the diary for the weekend to do it. You need to bear in mind that I am not someone who will launch a product that I don't believe in 100%, so I may use the whole 2 week allowance to get it just right. I may also lose a bit of money on the first pair, because machining things out of solid block takes time. But I appreciate the additional budget you have freed up by removing the cost of shipping to the PandaCave.
I am a bit disappointed that you guys haven't worked out a way of making them baskets out of bamboo though. I think I have an idea on that front that you are welcome to steal from me and patent for yourself - that is what big companies do to us little guys 
Genuine question - if you are selling these in the UK through S&R (good idea) then does it have a CE mark? If not, how are you planning to do this? Not sure if you are all familiar with EU law, but basically without a CE mark you can't sell it in the UK - that includes selling to the UK from overseas, which is the same for all EU countries. S&R will not sell a product without CE mark, or they shouldn't do, or they can end up in quite a bit of trouble. They also may have issues if anyone was injured using a non-CE marked product - which lets face it is possible due to the nature of skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Monium, If you've got some prototypes ready by Sat pm and I make it up to Hemel I'll give them an on snow test if you like. We might even get some pro endorsements from ski instructors and a renowned UK ski tech.
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| bobmcstuff wrote: |
His grammar is fine, Americans always do that... (i.e., "couple poles" rather than "couple of poles"). Not really a cardinal offence in any case.
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Bob, we gave them a perfectly good language, and if we start allowing them to change it and make it their own then they will ruin it and pretend they invented it in the first place. Just look at the internet. And bread. And cheese. They have demonstrated they cannot be trusted. We have to protect them from themselves
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FAQ
s. It's good to develop a thick skin 
