 Poster: A snowHead
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That nice snowHead Simon Cross has got his report out again 
http://mag.digitalpc.co.uk/fvx/crystal/sir2012/
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Simon Cross, Managing Director Crystal Ski, said: "The ski market has been resilient despite challenging market conditions. Tour operators regained a marginal share of the overall market due to their ability to produce exceptionally good value ski holiday packages.
“In 2011, an increasing number of skiers turned to online channels to research and book their holiday. We expect this trend to continue into the next season and beyond.”
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is Simon Cross a real person?
On those figures, the market has dropped by 27% over the last 5 years. Hardly a surprise I guess. How to become a millionnaire in the ski business... well, start with 10 million etc.
Nice to see Austria up and certain more western alpine countries down 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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boredsurfin, the bit where they ride horses and don't try to feed 'em to their over-charged guests.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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the drop since 07/08 is interesting and certainly would reflect in various snowheads reports that half term isn't as busy as it used to be 
firstchoice clearly isn't!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bode Swiller, Shining wit! 
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Boredsurfing, and he's dead right. There used to be two other reports; the ski club and SIGB but they both stopped bothering a few years back. Inghams will tell you that it's not about the sheer passenger numbers, they are more interested in making money (or rather not losing money) on their programs.
I thought the other interesting thing to come out was that Bulgaria was down considerably on the year before, far more than say Switzerland or USA. Just shows that being cheap in a time of recession still doesn't beat VFM.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Might have more to do with Bulgaria being overcrowded and receiving low snowfall the past two winters.
At least that's what I was told by Bulgarian friends and read on the interweb.
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Mike Pow, but, despite poor snow season for USA last winter and high cost of getting there, USA only lost 0.1%. I reckon stories of biblical lift queues getting up and out of Bansko did a lot of damage.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bulgaria is effectively 2 resorts AIUI and is heavily skewed toward first timers or early users so I'm not overly shocked by a downturn. It's interesting that places like Banff, which has one the highest priced lift passes in the world is rated heavily for value as are Verbier and Zermatt which suggests that the repsondents are after quality of the "experience" rather than price sensitive. I'm pretty sure that poor early season snow in US won't have had much impact on the TO numbers as TO customers tend to book a fair lead time out for high ticket items like that. Repeat bookings for people left duelling on the WROD on their first "ski trip of a lifetime" to teh US at Xmas or New Year might be a different matter.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Are any surveys produced of lift company pass sales at popular resorts or are these held highly confidential by the lift companies so that we cannot see who is rising in popularity and who is falling?
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
Is Simon Cross a real person?
On those figures, the market has dropped by 27% over the last 5 years. Hardly a surprise I guess. How to become a millionnaire in the ski business... well, start with 10 million etc.
Nice to see Austria up and certain more western alpine countries down |
Yes I am a real person damn you... haven't you seen the badly shot video?!?
Always look forward to Snowheads' incisive analysis of our report.
Feel free to post me a few questions, I'll do my best to respond.
Cheers
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You know it makes sense.
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Simon Cross, just that I heard a terrible rumour that you don't do your own posts Anyway, I won't tell anyone.
Questions:
Do you downplay the real size of the independent market?
How do you arrive at the figures for the independent market?
Do you fear all those ex-Crystal peeps at Inghams?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Simon Cross, Have you got any plans for a more "indie" offering to tap into those elements of the market? I'm thinking split weeks where you could offer a long weekend paired with a budget mid week break for the more flexible with appropriate evening flights and transfers.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| There used to be two other reports; the ski club and SIGB but they both stopped bothering a few years back. |
Don't know about SIGB but to be fair, the Ski Club has not stopped bothering, they release every autumn. The 2011 report is here:
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/presscentre/snowsportsanalysis.aspx
I would tend to think there's less commercial bias in the Ski Club's in terms of operators' shares etc, but there's always going to be a positive spin from an industry members association to some extent.
What's always going to be largely unreported in Crystal's is also the volume of independent holidays and holidays visiting friends & relations in the mountains, which they don't get data for (scheduled/no frills flights and driving, private rentals) which probably make up a lot of short breaks, so the whole picture of 7 day holidays and package destinations could be presenting a gradually more skewed picture of the market.
But, perception is reality as they say, and Crystal get a lot of coverage for their report. Therefore it must be true 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well there ya go, I thought they'd stopped. Must make more noise about it in future. I notice though that they use Crystal's report as one of the sources.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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THe SCGB report is pretty poor it quotes things like the average price of a ski holiday but completely fails to mention what is included in that price.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
Simon Cross, just that I heard a terrible rumour that you don't do your own posts Anyway, I won't tell anyone.
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I never respond to rumour and speculation.
However I'll do my best to respond to the serious questions either tonight or tomorrow... some good ones there to be honest.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
Boredsurfing, Inghams will tell you that it's not about the sheer passenger numbers, they are more interested in making money (or rather not losing money) on their programs.
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They're different kinds of ski businesses surely. Crystal are part responsible for keeping all those planes moving and staff employed throughout the winter when fewer people are taking flights to warm and sunny places - therefore numbers may be a better gauge for Crystal than profit, so long as other areas of the TUI group remain profitable.
Inghams don't have the overhead of an airline to maintain.
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having been with crystal the last two years ive got to say weve had value for money, and some decent reps!! (or whatever they call them now) gotta say wed go with them again. We also do one or two DIY trips as well due to length and when we want to go, that doesnt always fit in to TO schedules.
on the Bulgaria front, numbers are down from uk but overall they are up quite a bit, and the Bansko gondola is still crowded 
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Hi all
I'll try to cover most of the topics raised.
1. Crystal is very much measured by profit - even within TUI. We are a separate business unit within the group and like everyone else have to hit our "number" every year. All of our staff - with the exception of a percentage of overseas people - work year round dedicated to Crystal. Did you guys not know about our summer product *hint hint* http://www.crystalsummer.co.uk
2. With regard to the questions about shorter length holidays and the more DIY/flexible approach. We're constantly monitoring it. However the majority of the market (we believe) is still in 7 night packages, and the logistics of that in itself are complex. If we did get into a more flexible approach it would need to be along the lines of dynamic packaging which, with resort transfers, is very difficult to deliver a good experience for customers and make money at the same time.
3. With regard to the notes about how do we calculate the numbers in the report, we do make it very clear that there are no absolutes and the data comes from a wide range of sources including those relevant to low cost airlines etc. We've got nothing to hide when it comes to the DIY part of the market.
4. We work with Inghams a lot and obviously they are a key competitor. Of course Andy Perrin used to be MD at Crystal, alhtough I think both businesses have changed quite a bit since then. Let's just say there is healthy competition between the two businesses but also a lot of professional respect.
Hope that is useful.
Cheers
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Simon Cross, I always read the Crystal report with interest, and has been mentioned above the DIY or independent skier market is I am sure the sector that everyone in the industry would like to be able to get figures on.
Reports on the Ski Industry are essentially but not entirely, on the "Ski Holiday Market" which without doubt has declined over the last few years as the economy has suffered, the big question is what is happening in the core segment of the market, where the trips to the mountains are not viewed as a holiday, but a necessity.
Is there a poll, or tracking of a representative sample of independent Chalet owners to get this information?
Is it possible to track euro tunnel and ferry departures during the winter months with destination being the mountains, I guess not on both questions.
The worry for all "Holiday" operations is that the fewer people going on a first ski holiday each year, has a knock on effect over many years, and it may take the "holiday" industry a significant time to recover from this even after the economy has picked up again.
Some other points I noticed:
Is this years report shorter or is it just a pre release of a fuller report?
On Slide 12 if I am reading it correctly this is a comparison of internet related searches against depth of snow v ski search terms, this is a little worrying as there are many events which trigger ski and snow search's on the internet, silly things like the start of ski Sunday, the winter Olympics and avalanches.
As a final point the school market is I know really suffering, and probably worse than your figures show, my brother in law has run two school ski trips per season over the last 20 years from a school in a very affluent stock broker belt south of London, last season there was not enough interest to run even one.
Keep the reports coming I will keep reading, many thanks. 
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On Slide 12 if I am reading it correctly this is a comparison of internet related searches against depth of snow v ski search terms
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Funnily enough according to the snow heads front page the most snow heads ever logged on at the same time was on 490 on 05 December 2011 just after the snow drought broke, which is a similar date to the spiking in the report above.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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nozawaonsen,
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which is a similar date to the spiking in the report above.
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yep there was a huge number of hits on Snowheads Dec 2011, but the doubling of ski related searches on slide 12 was if I am reading it correctly in 2010 not 2011 it was not until week three of Dec 2011 that ski related searches passed that of 2010.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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To be honest it's a little confusing as the commentary is on searches being down then doubling and the graph relates to an averaged snowfall figure year on year (rather than a graph showing snowfall versus search traffic).
That searches double as you approach Christmas may simply be a seasonal reaction I guess.
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You know it makes sense.
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Is it possible to track euro tunnel and ferry departures during the winter months with destination being the mountains, I guess not on both questions.
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livetoski, before the tunnel was open the vast majority passed through Dover docks and Dover Harbour Board used to pay someone to sit there and count cars with ski racks and roof boxes and the number of people in each car - I know this because I met the bloke in charge of it. Despite not being an exact science, he told me that they reckoned on 150,000 pax per winter and that was back in the mid 90s. Add in the other cross Channel routes and I'm guessing it must have topped 200k.
If you add in people travelling independently by air, coach and train/ferry/train, then the indy market was already sizeable even in the mid 90s. It's far easier to go indy now so I assume the numbers quoted in the Crystal report are downplayed.
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FAQ
