 Poster: A snowHead
|
Snow and Rock are still open, and have weathered various financial storms well. But it's been tough. Edge & Wax have closed. The Piste Office continues to offer us all excellent service, and has weathered the storms too. The tiny gear shop in Arolla was open last time I was there, but their second piste basher's front suspension had broken yet again. The rust-stained and creaking lifts there look at though they will last yet another season, but God knows how they can really keep open that much longer. The Kurhaus hotel in Arolla is one of the most beautiful Alpine hotels in the world, but not because it's up to date, exactly. The new high-speed chair is going in at Crans Montana - Czech money. Last year I stood on a completely empty piste at a time when there should have been at least a few other people there to enjoy the perfect snow all around me. The Czechs are going to have a slow return rate.
Meanwhile in the town, more and more shops are closing - the Patagonia shop has gone. So has the Oakley shop. They went in 2015. Now it's various other suppliers going.
Skiing is changing, restructuring. I look down at my skis and wonder how I have such amazing choice of gear from manufacturers who must be cross-subsidising their manufacture like mad.
I wonder about my kids, and imagine a post-apocalyptic scene, where they skin past all the rusting, decaying infrastructure on which we downhill skiers relied, and reflect 'that's what we used to do, all those years ago'...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Not just skiing. All manner of shops, pubs, etc. are disappearing. The world is changing, you can live your life on a laptop, no need to leave your sofa. Obesity crisis anyone?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| valais2 wrote: |
I wonder about my kids, and imagine a post-apocalyptic scene, where they skin past all the rusting, decaying infrastructure on which we downhill skiers relied, and reflect 'that's what we used to do, all those years ago'... |
| queen bodecia wrote: |
Obesity crisis anyone? |
With all that skinning, the obesity crisis would be solved!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
@valais2, Chamonix is booming, bookings are up, Compagnie du Mont Blanc revenues up again I believe, friends opened a new skis shop two seasons ago and beat targets first year, beat first year by end January, new lifts being installed and planned...
CHF vs anyone else got anything to do with it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
The point is money and priorities. At work there are a load of 20 and 30-somethings. They're all intelligent, professional people but at a stage in their lives where their priorities are paying off student debts, saving to buy a house, finding a partner then marriage and a family if that is successful. Holidays, nights out and frivolous purchases are way down their lists. Although they do mostly seem to prioritise having a nice car.
At the same stage in my life (1992-2004) I didn't go on holiday either. In fact I didn't go skiing again until 2006. However, I also had a manky old car and no partner.
I believe this is the pattern of life for professional people in that age group. Then there are of course the 'non-professional' people, call them C2DEs if you like. Skiing is hardly on their list of priorities.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| valais2 wrote: |
I wonder about my kids, and imagine a post-apocalyptic scene, where they skin past all the rusting, decaying infrastructure on which we downhill skiers relied, and reflect 'that's what we used to do, all those years ago'... |
The crumbling, ruined club hotels
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There is a flight to quality.
Only the high or big will survive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
There have been new or upgraded lifts in the Espace Diamant every year since we bought our apartment in 2002. Lots of more recent new builds too, several in the pipeline, older ones being refurbished. Busy in the summer, new mountain bike tracks and infrastructure every year, plenty of road cycling too. Doesn't feel like it's dying. The area feels fairly prosperous, plenty of dairy farming. Looking forward to meadows full of cows, bells, grass and flowers later this month. But hopefully not too many mountain bikes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hmm - don't really see resort residential real estate going down in price. Nowhere I've been in the ski world looked on its uppers in the last year - in fact the opposite. Citing B league Swiss resorts is hardly typical given the effect we all know the Chf has had on all skiers intent to ski there - heaps of CH plated cars in the Arlberg every weekend.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I guess we can all see the demographics.
But Arolla had old defunct infrastructure when I climbed there in 1982 from what I remember... the Alps has always been a bit like that, no?
In Canada on the other hand they're still building new stuff: Revelstoke, "Kicking Horse", "Jumbo", and the plans for my secret spot that I'll not mention more than I need to.
I'm not sure there's any particular shift to quality - places like Bulgaria aren't really selling that, and they didn't exist from a tourist point of view in days of yore.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
I'm not sure there's any particular shift to quality
|
I think there is to some extent. MGM no longer build apartment complexes without pools, for example. Ours was the last without a pool in our area. Personally I'd prefer to be without as they do push up the co-pro charges a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All the new developments in val thorens in the last 3 years have been upmarket and they've added a huge number of beds to the resort. At the same time there has been a huge and ongoing investment in lift infrastructure. @Whitegold is right in this instance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
@under a new name, ...yes, Chamonix indeed booming, but such an exceptional place. By comparison, London is booming too, while the coastal towns in Kent, or rural communities in Lincolnshire have extraordinary economic and social challenges. Its good that your friends have opened in the right place. But other places which were doing well fifteen years' ago are now creaking badly. Yes, Arolla has always been like that, but they managed to invest and run the place fine for many years, with the Kurhaus and old Hotel du Mont Collon fairly full - not now. Am I just succumbing to nostalgia and unrealistic about realities? No, I'm interested in watching and understanding the re-structruring which is going on. When in England, we live in an inland village which once was a bustling port, with six pubs, small cottage shops and artisan shops, and stabling for 120 horses, with hundreds of stevedores running about. 100 years later, all the docks have been filled in or are silted up. Now, all those pubs have gone, all the shops too, and the population is tiny. Change happens, and I am interested in how it unfolds.
Yes, the value of the CHF has been a real problem for the Swiss economy - I've posted on this and discussed it before - but it's operated more as a signal deterrent than being based on the realities of a huge difference between French and Swiss prices on the hill. Austria indeed is cheaper, many French resorts not so. It's thus a shame that some great Swiss stations are struggling.
And Davidof, exceptional photo...
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 12-06-16 8:51; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| emwmarine wrote: |
| All the new developments in val thorens in the last 3 years have been upmarket and they've added a huge number of beds to the resort. At the same time there has been a huge and ongoing investment in lift infrastructure. @Whitegold is right in this instance. |
Am I wrong in thinking that all developments in Val Thorens must be deemed commercially viable (beneficial) before permissions are given?
I think im basing that statement on a drunken conversation about a billionaire that wanted to build his own place there but wasn't allowed unless it was going to be let out for a certain amount of the season? I'm sure someone said it was going to be about £100,000 a week!
Perhaps a resort such as Val Thorens, high altitude and purpose built, may have more forward vision and a tighter grip on its future than older, more traditional resorts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
There is a lot of the original Val Thorens plans on display in the museum in St. Martin, which is where Val Thorens is administered from. IIRC their target was to have a commune there with around 50,000 beds and a twin resort called Val Chaviere with similar. As of a few years ago I believe there were 28,000 beds and 5,000 have been added over the last 3 years. I may haveforgotten these numbers and got them a litte wrong.
The planning for the last 10 years has focused on upmarket developments using either traditional materials or significantly architecturally beneficial, such as the new club med building. Planning is pretty strict. When our apartment building upgraded it's fascia the building management company was given fairly strict guidelines to move the look away from the 70s concrete buildings to much more traditional. This does some to be working - if you look at VT now compared to say 5 years ago the new developments have made a big improvement to the overall look of the place.
You are pretty much right about planning permission only being given to developments that are likely to result in visitors through the season. I believe that the plan for new developments requires the new land to be bought from the commune and the planning and development to be done in close co-operation.
There is enough building work going on to keep Les Saint Peres restaurant open all year round. It's the only restuarant in VT that does stay open out of season and it's where all the building workers and owners renovating their apartments end up in the evening.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
I'm not sure there's any particular shift to quality - places like Bulgaria aren't really selling that, and they didn't exist from a tourist point of view in days of yore.
|
Bulgaria has been a tourist destination for decades. OK I will confess that I haven't been for over 20 years, but even then some of the hotels and tourist infrastructure were looking a little tired. In the 1970s I recall quite a lot of British went skiing in Bugaria as well as a fair number from Eastern Europe. Places like Varna and Golden Sands were popular in the summer as well. I suspect since joining the EU the cost differential to the Alpine resorts has narrowed to such an extent that it is no longer worth going to Bulgaria for cheep skiing. And the Russians now go to Sloelden and Courcheval.
Tourist destinations change, hotels come and go. I note that the popular climbing hotel Cobdens in Capel Curic is now closed. We stay for half the price in Bangor travel lodge and drive each day rather than walk from the hotel. Pontins in Blackpool where I used to work has now been demolished. Many of the hotels in the Isle of Man appear to be converted into flats or burnt down. I believe the holiday camp at Arc 1800 has been derelict for ages. I even looked on google earth at the village of my childhood; the house I was raised in has been knocked down and the whole street has returned to nature.
New developments spring up. As noted earlier more and more new accomodation is being built in the high alpine resorts. People want much larger apartments with single bedrooms for each occupant (and according to some posts an individual bathroom). When was the last time anyone stayed in a hotel that wasn't on suite? People want architecture that stands out and looks different - compare the garish Arc 1950 and the dowdy Arc 1600.
It is the same everywhere - change happens and somtimes bits of the old remain as curiosities. I had some fun the other day looking up defunct motorways in the UK.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Having posted just a few minutes ago I recall watching a couple TV programmes recently where a lady walked along a disused railway track discussing why it was there and what it was used for. Perhaps a hundred years time we will see the same about ski resorts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Shift to quality is only human.
In the past, "quality" was more proportional to price. So the lessor quality serves the lessor financially endowed. But the demographic is always shifting one way or another. Right now, we're in the "rich getting richer and poor getting poorer" trend. Those who can still go skiing will be the more upmarket crowd. Those who can't, don't go.
And the middle market is always the most challenging to run. Balancing profit margin in a world that's constantly changing. Size helps in cushioning the change and temporary imbalance. But as the "middle" demographic got smaller, that cushion gets thinner. Some won't survive.
This isn't new. But the "change" is coming a lot faster now than 20 years ago. So we get to see the result of those change instead of reading them in the history books.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@abc, I'm not sure I agree with your analysis above. Inequality is largely irrelevant. What matters is the size and wealth of the Middle/upper classes. Or, to be more precise how many people are in the demographic that can afford to ski and is their disposable income less/more than previously. All the statistics seem to show that both of those measures are increasing, and have increased pretty steadily for decades. My personal view is that the root cause of any decline in skier numbers lies elsewhere. It is now far more affordable for many to take holidays much farther afield.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@foxtrotzulu, I think you missed my point.
People are still skiing, in fact skiing more. But they're going upmarket. The thinning of the middle class means the skiing public are actually more affluent than say, 10 years ago? While the entry threshold got higher in real term. With no lower "class" to pick up the slack, those dated infrastructure will be the first to feel the hit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| johnE wrote: |
| ...Bulgaria has been a tourist destination for decades. ... In the 1970s I recall quite a lot of British went skiing in Bugaria as well as a fair number from Eastern Europe. Places like Varna and Golden Sands were popular in the summer as well. |
I know the country well from a non-tourist perspective and am entirely familiar with the Black Sea resorts too. That's a completely different market though: we were talking about skiing. My point was that the extremely low-price ski market didn't really exist in the 1980s at least; low-price package beach holidays of course had been around for significantly longer and their costs and target market were very different from skiing, which was at that time still the preserve of the relatively affluent.
I may be wrong. My evidence: The Good Skiing Guide 1985, for example, claims to describe "Europe's best winter sports resorts". There's no mention of Bulgaria at all.
I remember them building infrastructure below the Rozhen Observatory significantly later than the 1970s. It was kind of hard to get to back then. I'd love to see some old photographs or lift maps of what you "British" were skiing there.
| johnE wrote: |
| .... I note that the popular climbing hotel Cobdens in Capel Curic is now closed. We stay for half the price in Bangor travel lodge and drive each day rather than walk from the hotel. ... |
It was a funky place which you can imagine would have succession issues. I would not read too much into that, although there are *always* better alternatives than Travel Lodges.
--
I'm not sure I'd describe an Easy Jet flight as a "drive to quality".
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| What matters is the size and wealth of the Middle/upper classes. Or, to be more precise how many people are in the demographic that can afford to ski and is their disposable income less/more than previously. All the statistics seem to show that both of those measures are increasing, and have increased pretty steadily for decades. |
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. The "squeezed middle" is a well-documented phenomenon across many nations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| philwig wrote: |
| My point was that the extremely low-price ski market didn't really exist in the 1980s at least; |
Really? IIRC Andorra was a big budget destination in the 1980s. I haven't heard of anyone going to Andorra in years. I'm fairly sure skiing in Bulgaria was kicking off in the 1980s.
| philwig wrote: |
| I'm not sure I'd describe an Easy Jet flight as a "drive to quality". |
I can't say I find EasyJet any better or worse than cattle class on any other carrier.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| dogwatch wrote: |
| IIRC Andorra was a big budget destination in the 1980s. I haven't heard of anyone going to Andorra in years. I'm fairly sure skiing in Bulgaria was kicking off in the 1980s. |
You are correct that Andorra was an early discount destination, but it wasn't in that guide book. QED.
I went to Andorra last year. Are your hearing aids actually turned on? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| dogwatch wrote: |
| I'm fairly sure skiing in Bulgaria was kicking off in the 1980s. |
I was definitely there in the 80's! It would have been the late 80's though and I know that it was a little tired...Loved it though!
As far as Andorra is concerned, I know it is still very popular with the Irish. Many of my friends head that way each season. Half for the skiing and half for the craic.
I know its still a popular destination for school trips.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
My point was that the extremely low-price ski market didn't really exist in the 1980s
|
It absolutely did. Was going on very cheap ski hols from the early 70s onwards. The same companies that offered cheapo packages to Spain offered cheapo skiing. A tiny amount of spending money went a very long way when there were 30 Austrian Schillings to the £ and 75 billion trillion Italian Lira to the £ and the ski business was seen as a winter fill-in for their farming businesses. Andorra and Bulgaria were even cheaper. Switzerland was more pricey and seen as being for toffs and France were able to be cheap by pioneering the shoe box apartment for 6.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
80's holidays in Livigno were great value
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| philwig wrote: |
| . Are your hearing aids actually turned on? |
You are peculiarly attached to the notion that anyone who disagrees with you is geriatric.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@philwig, sadly I have no piste maps or photographs from the 1970s. I never went to Bulgaria, or started skiing,until the 1990s but I remember being in Stan Palmer's house in Coventry (he was something to do with the governing body of skiing in the UK at the time) while he was organising a training camp in Pamporovo. He appeared to have organised a few in the past as well.
One of my friends visited Vitosha many years ago and before I went there. In fact in the 1990s Vitosha was so run down that Roman, my friend wouldn't even contemplate skiing there, but we did drive up for lunch a couple of times.
http://www.skicupborovets.com/borovets/history has a bit of history on Borovets.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| dogwatch wrote: |
| philwig wrote: |
| . Are your hearing aids actually turned on? |
You are peculiarly attached to the notion that anyone who disagrees with you is geriatric. |
I thnik you missed his point there.
You said you "hadn't heard of anyone going to Andorra for years".
His point was that meant you hadn't been listening, since it is still a popular destination.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I think you've missed a long history of posts here.
Whenever anyone disagrees with philwig's opinions on safety, there are a cowardly couch potato.
Whenever anyone disagrees with philwig's opinions on other subjects, they are ancient and out of touch.
He'd rather play the man than the ball.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
.....
| Quote: |
There is a flight to quality.
Only the high or big will survive.
|
Perhaps someone will invent ......'easyski', and deliver a new middle ground 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
@dogwatch,
| Quote: |
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. The "squeezed middle" is a well-documented phenomenon across many nations.
|
All the statiscs show that, certainly as far as the UK is concerned, the idea of the 'squeezed middle' is more of a political construct than anything else. The middle classes may not have done as well in recent years as the poor or the very rich, but as far as I can tell from the stats the size of the middle class has continued to grow and the absolute wealth (in terms of spending power) has continues to increase. Looking internationally, the size of the middle class is dramatically increasing.
@abc,
| Quote: |
| People are still skiing, in fact skiing more. But they're going upmarket. The thinning of the middle class means the skiing public are actually more affluent than say, 10 years ago? While the entry threshold got higher in real term. With no lower "class" to pick up the slack, those dated infrastructure will be the first to feel the hit. |
I agree that people are demanding more and better quality. I'm not sure what you mean by the 'thinning middle class'. In what way is it thinning?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
I agree that people are demanding more and better quality. I'm not sure what you mean by the 'thinning middle class'. In what way is it thinning? |
I think the following is the disconnect:
| Quote: |
All the statiscs show that, certainly as far as the UK is concerned, the idea of the 'squeezed middle' is more of a political construct than anything else. The middle classes may not have done as well in recent years as the poor or the very rich, but as far as I can tell from the stats the size of the middle class has continued to grow and the absolute wealth (in terms of spending power) has continues to increase. Looking internationally, the size of the middle class is dramatically increasing.
|
Perhaps a couple links to a few of those "statistics"?
I'm certainly under the spell of such "political construct".
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| valais2 wrote: |
| http://www.daehanmindecline.com/2015/20150206b.html |
Thats unreal!! And never opened as a resort?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| johnE wrote: |
| I suspect since joining the EU the cost differential to the Alpine resorts has narrowed to such an extent that it is no longer worth going to Bulgaria for cheep skiing. And the Russians now go to Sloelden and Courcheval. |
I must disagree, to my dismay i can't get my group away from going to Bulgaria every year primarily down to cost! It's stupidly cheap compared to Alpine resorts...
My lot believe (and i think they're probably right) that a Ski trip is £1,000-200 per head. Bulgaria can be done for £6-700, which to them is a no brainer. As a group we range between 27 and 44, couple of children but it really boils down to desire. People want to spend that kind of money on other summer holidays. One girl put it that she could go to the caribbean for 2 weeks for the price of a ski holiday and she's right she could. It's just about where you're willing to put your money.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
