 Poster: A snowHead
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http://www.planetski.eu/news/7980
snowHeads probably buck the trend, as I'm pretty sure that people who get involved with the forum tend to increase the number of days they ski or board compared to what they used to do. Other than making participation in snowHeads compulsory, anyone have any thoughts on what the wintersports industry could/should do to halt the decline in numbers participating?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I wonder if there is a correlation between the decline in school ski trips and the decline in general.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rob@rar, the ski lift companies of some resorts are not helping the situation. They seem to correlate reduced income with a need to increase prices for those who do visit. Resort businesses are complaining but maybe not loud enough. Tourist offices have reduced their events outside of the French holidays too, and I guess the poor start to the season did not help.
Serre Che is a popular schools destination and I've not seen anywhere near as many of the usual coaches around recently.
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I started skiing as a result of a school ski trip. I suspect I wouldn't have tried it otherwise. I'm pretty sure that my school doesn't run them anymore, and I suspect that if they did the cost of school ski trips these days would be a limiting factor. Seems a bit short sighted of the industry.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rob@rar, i found M. vanat's last report rather statistically questionable.
TO my mind the headline chart simply reflects the strong Swiss franc, poor early snow 3 years in a row amd general economic unease especially the collapse of the rouble. Who's celebrating their poorly translated cyrillic websites these days?
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@under a new name, taking out the statistical noise of FX changes and a few poor starts to the winter season, I think over a 15-20 year period the trend is clear, and I do think there's evidence of a decline in new participants. I heard the report of a similar tourism conference last year, reaching similar conclusions and I don't think it was based on Vanat's research.
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@Hells Bells, over the time I've worked for a school ski op, the numbers have moved away from Switzerland and France and increased in Italy. Austria is still very popular.
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It's probably very patchy. I have no idea at all of numbers, but in my area there have been a steady flow of new builds - and more in the pipeline and there are a lot of very swish private chalets being built, with beautiful traditional woodwork. And a new or upgraded chairlift every year.
I started with a school trip too, and loved it, though after that it was years and years before I could afford to go again.
The decline in school trips might have something to do with the drying up of teachers willing to take on the task, which is more and more onerous with new rules and regulations. With the shocking behaviour of so many school kids it's a huge responsibility taking kids abroad and being in loco parentis 24/7.
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@pam w, regulations are more relaxed now than they have been over the past 20 years. It's more likely to be down to teacher workload and the fact that they need 1/2 term to catch up on marking/planning.
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Just maybe the cost during holidays is a factor. It's big bucks if you want a ski HOLIDAY , it's pretty expensive if you don't mind using the living room as accommodation and eating spaghetti all week. I would rather enjoy myself and accept the cost but realistically it's 5k+ for a week assuming fly/enough bedrooms/ big area pass/kids lessons/ ski hire/transfer and eating out a few times. Probably 6k now I have done a rough add up. That's enough to put quite a few people off. I realise you can do it for less but even on a strict budget in school holiday I bet it would still be £2500 driving/smaller resort eating in etc. Figures assume family of 4 NY or half term.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I was talking to friends with kids at private school and last years ski trip was £1800 per child.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Baby boomers leaving the sport, younger generation have much less money, high housing costs, much less interest in club skiing, over investment in lifts pushing prices too high, actual or fear of climate change, decline of skiing racing on TV etc?
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@Peter S, my sons want to come with us at Christmas, one is having trouble getting the two day's leave he will need to join us for a week.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Norrin Radd wrote: |
| I was talking to friends with kids at private school and last years ski trip was £1800 per child. |
I think £1800 would be something of an outlier. I've been looking through old emails to see how much the school ski trips were costing. The three I found were £900, £900, and £1,225.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Peter S wrote: |
| Baby boomers leaving the sport, younger generation have much less money, high housing costs, much less interest in club skiing, over investment in lifts pushing prices too high, actual or fear of climate change, decline of skiing racing on TV etc? |
You may be right on some of those factors, but I'm not sure the first three are entirely accurate. Disposable income has risen pretty steadily for decades. A slight dip post-recession for some people, but it appears that it's not a lack of money to spend on snow sports, more that people just prefer to spend it elsewhere. Skiing used to be seen as an adventure sport. Nowadays everyone wants to sail the Pacific or bungee jump off the Golden Gate Bridge.
Less interest in club skiing? I wasn't really aware there ever had been much of a thing as 'club skiing'. Death of ski racing on TV? Ski Sunday seems to be less high profile but the new format should be more consumer friendly than the hours of tedious slalom racing they used to show.
My personal guess is that there are simply more options available for winter holidays. Thirty years ago winter sun was the preserve of the very rich. Now, every Tom Dick and Gary is heading off to Caribbean.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@foxtrotzulu, I thought it was on the steep end, but £24,000 a year per child for fees is even steeper.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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From PlanetSki
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"It has been widely acknowledged by the industry that the first experience for beginners is very often unpleasant and that most of them will not return," he says.
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"Most of them will not return" - and I spend all my time warning first timers that though this trip will be only £800 skiing is very addictive and they will have to spend at least twice this every year for the rest of their lives
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Norrin Radd wrote: |
| @foxtrotzulu, I thought it was on the steep end, but £24,000 a year per child for fees is even steeper. |
those were private school ski trips I was quoting. Then again, 24k is at the cheaper end of the scale for many private schools. 
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I think one of the biggest contributing factors re the school trips is because of the price these days. A trip that easily should cost no more than around £300 at our school was costing upwards of £600 just for trips to France or Germany. The ski trips where significantly more than this and ended some years ago.
I was talking to a few of the teachers we get on really well with and the consensus was that all the child protection stuff etc is the biggest issue that forces the price through the roof. I had priced up a Paris/Disney trip eldest was going on, staying in a much better std and better located hotel and it was half the price. I factored in free trip for the staff going.
I know the ski trip was over a grand and at the time we paid less than that for a family holiday for 3 weeks and no matter how much we would have loved him to go it just was not feasible for us.
So if our case is typical then less kids are experiencing skiing through school, then factor in the very limited holiday time during the ski season, and due to supply and demand the highly inflate prices, and again less going ( especially with the financial climate many family's are experiencing ).
Even swimming lessons at our school stopped for a number of years due to cost and logistics, they used to walk from school to the swimming pool then they where told they had to use a coach thus increasing the price beyond what the school could cover. All this because someone deemed it was much safer to go by coach than walk just under a mile.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@speed098, even when my own were at school almost 10 years ago now, the prices for a short Art dept break to Barcelona was ridiculous.
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| Peter S wrote: |
| Baby boomers leaving the sport, younger generation have much less money, high housing costs, much less interest in club skiing, over investment in lifts pushing prices too high, actual or fear of climate change, decline of skiing racing on TV etc? |
Fear mongering around climate change does impact the ski industry as far as capital investment is concerned. I'm not suggesting climate change isn't real and I don't have the expertise to comment either way, but if you look at the snowheads equivalent in Australia which is ski.com.au they have political ideological forum threads that you can access once you become a member. They scare punters away and certainly impact bookings to the detriment of lodge owners. From my observations old infrastructure, slow lifts and high ticket prices is a result of their own doing.
Senior members are from the hard ideological left and continually push this agenda to the point of sabotaging the local ski industry. Put it this way, that forum put enough doubt in my families mind that we decided not to purchase an alpine property in Australia. Originally from Europe we love living in Australia and accept it has smaller ski hills but now prefer to ski Europe or North America.
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| Peter S wrote: |
| Baby boomers leaving the sport, younger generation have much less money, high housing costs, much less interest in club skiing, over investment in lifts pushing prices too high, actual or fear of climate change, decline of skiing racing on TV etc? |
Spot on about Baby Boomers getting old. You only have to look at the cruise ship market.
Skiing is not exactly fashionable any more. Lycra and a lightweight £3000 cycle are they way to express one's masculinity these days.
The school ski market also died somewhat when teachers weren't allowed to lead children any more. It pushed up the cost and took away the enjoyment for many teachers.
The romance has also gone out of it a bit. I went to Cortina last year. It was like a resort stuck in a time warp, old slow lifts, generally low latitude skiing, slow service on real table clothes, men who still think polo necks and lacoste jumpers are cool. Something wonderful and romantic and charming about the whole experience though. I'll likely go back.
On a positive note, I hear golf has suffered more than skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
http://www.planetski.eu/news/7980
y, anyone have any thoughts on what the wintersports industry could/should do to halt the decline in numbers participating? |
What makes you think there is a long term decline?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's manifest nonsense to suggest that the standard of living hasn't gone up in the last few decades. This stuff is cheaper than it was, not the other way around.
The reason people are doing other things isn't that skiing is too expensive.
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Just checked; my school ski trip (£40) in 1962 is equivalent to £804 now. That included North Sea ferry to Bergen, train to Geilo and accommodation in a youth hostel dorm. Didn't include spending money. Nor anything other than the week's morning ski lessons and gear. There wasn't much in the way of lifts, just simple drags. In the afternoons, whilst we would have loved to do more skiing, that wasn't an option, we just pottered about, chatted, went for walks in the village.
A similar school trip now would probably cost around the same amount. But many kids now would expect more "entertainment", such as sledging, going out to bowling, a disco, etc. And perhaps to ski all day.
And there can be no question that FAR more parents could afford £1000 ski trip now than in 1962. There is no way my parents could have afforded it. I had the money in the Post Office savings bank, from when I was born, 15 years of grand-parently Christmas and birthdays. Remember the Princess Anne and Prince Charles savings stamps?
I had just what was needed for the trip, when it was gone it was gone, and I couldn't afford to go skiing again till I was 40. All the time I was at university - actually, at 3 universities on 3 continents, I don't remember any friends who went skiing or talked about skiing.
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You know it makes sense.
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There is a danger we are being a little self-obsessed here. Don't forget that these stats relate to all snow sports visitors, if whom the Brits must be a relatively small percentage. Youth unemployment in Europe, for example, could be a far greater factor than anything previously mentioned.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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My school ski trip has never been more popular; we go in the first week of the Easter hols, use Equity, don't factor in a contingency (beer money) fund and charge £1080 - flying, full board, including insurance, lessons with ESF, kit hire and some evening ents. This year we went to Plagne 1800, next year to Les Deux Alpes. I've tried to put a package together myself for less - and simply can't. Our numbers have increased from 26 to 51 over the last seven years. We work very hard to try to get our party to develop a love of the sport and the majority of our party are returning 'customers', however this year we have a lot of new blood which should fill our trip for several years to come.
I don't know which company the school charging £1,800 uses, but I'm pretty au fait with the major operators and that sounds suspiciously steep - unless they're going to Gstaad in Feb half term, which I don't think anybody offers (and we've stayed in 5 star hotels in Passo Tonale and in Crans Montana, flying BA, for under a grand...).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Remember the Princess Anne and Prince Charles savings stamps?
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No.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
http://www.planetski.eu/news/7980
Other than making participation in snowHeads compulsory, anyone have any thoughts on what the wintersports industry could/should do to halt the decline in numbers participating? |
Yes, skiing worldwide has been fading for over a decade.
Skiing is suffering "death by a thousand cuts".
There are dozens of reasons.
Here are a few (real or perceived):
Global warming.
Glaciers melting.
Poor early snow.
Less snowfall.
More rain.
More ice.
More slush.
Less powder.
Crowded lifts.
Long liftlines.
Higher prices.
Unfavorable curencies.
Unfavorable oil prices.
Relative EU and Japan economic decline.
BRICS citizens mostly do not ski.
Fewer schooltrips / collegetrips / unitrips.
Skiing is un-green.
Environmental lobby.
Dated resorts.
Dated skischools.
Dated ski teaching.
Skiing instructors no longer cool.
Skiing romance is gone.
Snowboarding out of fashion.
Ski fashion out of fashion.
Ski equipment commoditizing.
Older people leaving the sport.
Younger people cannot afford it.
Very high youth unemployment.
College students weighed by debt.
Higher housing costs for younger people.
Younger people with money have endless alternative choices for adventure-vacations.
Health and safety overkill.
Safety-minded youngsters.
More single parents.
More solo divorcees.
More singletons.
Lower classes cannot afford it.
Lower classes with money ignored by marketers.
Snobbery deterrent.
Middle classes spend money elsewhere, like new cars.
Upper EU and Japan classes are less rich than in the past.
Demographic changes.
Religious people who ski less.
Ethnic minorities who ski less.
People from hot countries who ski less.
Less skiing on mainstream TV.
More competition for vacationers' budgets, like cycling.
The Internet.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just one cut...
Whitegold
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
http://www.planetski.eu/news/7980
Other than making participation in snowHeads compulsory, anyone have any thoughts on what the wintersports industry could/should do to halt the decline in numbers participating? |
Yes, skiing worldwide has been fading for over a decade.
Skiing is suffering "death by a thousand cuts".
There are dozens of reasons.
Here are a few (real or perceived):
Global warming.
Glaciers melting.
Poor early snow.
Less snowfall.
More rain.
More ice.
More slush.
Less powder.
Crowded lifts.
Long liftlines.
Higher prices.
Unfavorable curencies.
Unfavorable oil prices.
Relative EU and Japan economic decline.
BRICS citizens mostly do not ski.
Fewer schooltrips / collegetrips / unitrips.
Skiing is un-green.
Environmental lobby.
Dated resorts.
Dated skischools.
Dated ski teaching.
Skiing instructors no longer cool.
Skiing romance is gone.
Snowboarding out of fashion.
Ski fashion out of fashion.
Ski equipment commoditizing.
Older people leaving the sport.
Younger people cannot afford it.
Very high youth unemployment.
College students weighed by debt.
Higher housing costs for younger people.
Younger people with money have endless alternative choices for adventure-vacations.
Health and safety overkill.
Safety-minded youngsters.
More single parents.
More solo divorcees.
More singletons.
Lower classes cannot afford it.
Lower classes with money ignored by marketers.
Snobbery deterrent.
Middle classes spend money elsewhere, like new cars.
Upper EU and Japan classes are less rich than in the past.
Demographic changes.
Religious people who ski less.
Ethnic minorities who ski less.
People from hot countries who ski less.
Less skiing on mainstream TV.
More competition for vacationers' budgets, like cycling.
The Internet. |
I think less snow is certainly a factor. The season is most definitely shorter. 30 years ago November was early skiing season. Easter was just part of the season. People ask questions about it now.
The reality is that snow making has increased the length of the season. Did anyone watch the Giro yesterday. The snow was still packed up in resorts
I don't agree with queues being a factor. It's one area where the industry has really invested in and is so much better than 20 years ago. We have North America to thank for that when a mass migration was threatened in the 90s.
The 25-45s have very little disposable income. It's all with the over 55s. You only have to ask the bursar at any private school where it's mainly grandparents coffing up the fees.
School ski trips are still big in leafy schools but in working class areas they are all but dead. Even when we did really cheap hols to Italy or Andorra we struggled to get kids who could afford it.
I think you've all missed the biggest factor of all. The internet and gaming. Young people don't need to leave a screen to find company or sex these days. Nightclubs are closing everywhere. Kids don't go to a field and kick a ball about - they play Fifa on the X-box.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I went on a school trip in what must have been around 1964, it was something totally new in our family. I have some hysterical photos standing with huge long skis. Then went a couple of times in very early twenties, as did my OH, though not together. We didn't take the kids then till they were 9, 11 and 13. By that stage the 13 year old had been on two school trips, the 9 year old then went on school trips when he was 11, 12 and probably 14, Daughter in the middle just did one school trip when she must have been 16.
I had a part time job in those days and what I earned paid for these type of extras in their lives, and carpets which we gradually renewed . OH meanwhile covered the mortgage, school fees x3 and what became the annual ski holiday at Christmas, which was done on a budget in an (relatively) inexpensive place in Austria.
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@daveyladboy, my daughters school went to Canada (Canada FFS!!!) this year which was £1700, local boys school was to eastern united states for similar cost!!!!.
as she was a year 7 she was not eligible anyway, not that I would have entertained the idea. though they had to get a couple of year 7 girls to go to make up the numbers (60). next easter they are going to Italy for £950 by coach, there are 90 places available out of a student body of approx 1000 girls and they are all taken up, I still think it Is expensive and am sure if they could do it even cheaper more could afford to go.
it just happens that the school is in a desirable area with quite a few well off parents. lots of the kids come to the state secondary after being in the local private prep schools. just before my wife finished teaching full time 13 years ago, she went with her school ski trip to Austria via plane and it was £550 per kid, not sure why it would nearly have doubled since then?
we are sticking with going on a family ski trip together for all 4 of us for roughly double the cost (albeit DIY) for 1 child to italy
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It is notable that TUI are selling off their 2 or 3 school trip ski co's. Having purchased them in a flurry of pr speak press releases about making skiing more accessible for schools through lower pricing because of Tui's purchasing power etc etc
Obviously it was just PR speak perhaps....
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In relation to the school trips my own daughters school is around £1000 and she is eligible from next year , i think its very expensive and maybe this is part of the decline.
It is very easy to DIY a trip now that the prices seem high for such a trip.
I am looking into UCPA instead , see if i can get her and a friend to go , pay for the flights , i get a week close by and drop them off and pick up a week later.
They do 15-17 year old trips , i like the idea of that over the school trip
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@hawkwind, that new UCPA youth programme sounds good but the click-through on the Action Outdoors website gives no details or prices. Have you been able to get details of dates and prices? Paying your own fare and week's holiday obviously pushes the price up way over £1000 but at least you get a week's skiing out of it. Though if it were me, I'd rather go with my mate(s) and not have my dad ferrying me back and forth to the airport. UCPA do airport transfers for some centres/programmes, would make the whole thing far cheaper. 
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FAQ
The absurd paranoia about "stranger danger" (yes, there is a danger but it's always been there and is no different these days) has reached staggering proportions. MMM's mother might be up before the beak, these days, if two 6 year olds were found alone in a field.
Damn. Not even if worn separately 
