 Poster: A snowHead
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Had a great couple of days at Cairngorm this weekend but was left wondering about some things... They don't seem that keen on parting punters with their cash:
They were only charging afternoon rates for what was in fact a very good selection of pistes. The only downside were the utterly immense queues. Why did they not charge full price and open a couple more lifts OR even just open the railway at 8am instead of 9:20. I would happily have paid 20 quid more for that extra hour skiiing.
Cafe/Restaurant: We were in the carpark at about 8:15 as we figured we'd be able to get some breakfast while waiting for the train to start, but the cafe was shut till 10am. Then in the afternoon we agreed to meet in the bar after skiing, get a beer before heading for the car and thence Aviemore. When we got to the bar at around 4:30 it was closed and being cleaned and our mates were sat outside in the sun. There were huge numbers of people wandering about savouring an amazing day skiing and I'm sure loads of them would have loved a beer in the sun, but there were none to be had.
Don't get me wrong, I loather the blatant commercialisation of stuff like the Olympics and having to walk through the middle of the duty free at Manchester Airport to get to the departure gate, but in this case where you have a company losing money left and right, struggling to stay afloat in adverse conditions*; I'd really like to give them more of my hard earned cash, but wonder why they don't seem to want it.
* I'm only guessing they are struggling. If anyone can tell me the railway is now paid off and they're actually raking it in then I'm happy to be corrected.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I suspect they may have let some of their seasonal staff go by this late in the season, and it might just simply be down to lack of staff that they couldn't open the cafe, or the railway earlier.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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+1 to what TheGeneralist says (although I was the one who just got there in time to get a pint, my legs having given up one run before!).
Regarding lifts, some of the most fun skiing (for my taste anyway) could have been repeatedly accessed using the Coire Cas T-Bar, for which I would have happily paid extra for. I can't see what other lifts would have been feasible though, since the ski-able snow line was not very far below the bottom of the M1 poma. Then again, I never even got to see the bottom of the West Wall poma, perhaps that was ski-able too.
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| ap96 wrote: |
| bottom of the West Wall poma, perhaps that was ski-able too. |
that's the one I was thinking of along with the Cas T bar.
But the main thing would have been opening a bit earlier.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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feef is spot on. They had let a lot of, probably all, of their staff go following the dismal March.
Reason it was cheap is that the lift pass is what it says on the tin... It's a pass for the lifts that you're paying for. It's not a pass for skiing on the slopes. anyone who wants to can go on the slopes, or anywhere else that they want to.
It did feel slightly odd yesterday that I paid my money then walked up to the mid station first thing to avoid waiting in the queues. For the whole day, I think I was only on a tow 4 times and the train from mid-station once. rest of the day was spent hiking or skinning.
Yesterday highlighted, for me, the fact that they need to invest in an express chairlift at cairngorm. there was far too much skiing time lost in the queues.
ap96, west wall was skiable to around 1/2 way down.
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shoogly, fair enough. Shame really because what I could see of the Ciste Gully would have been a load of fun.
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| ap96 wrote: |
| shoogly, fair enough. Shame really because what I could see of the Ciste Gully would have been a load of fun. |
We've skied that (in June so no lifts) and just walked back out to the main carpark, wasn't too bad even staying in ski boots.
I think it's great that they managed to get so many seasonal staff back in to get any lifts going. Let's hope we see mid-summer skiing again this year 
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I'm told it's a lack of seasonal staff thing but I do think the bar closing issue is something that occurs every season staff or no staff and they must loose loads of money and leave a lot of people disappointed that they can't get a drink when they get off the slopes. I'm so used to it now I don't even bother considering a drink there but it's not so long since I was deeply disappointed to find that I couldn't have a nice relax and drink by the slopes.
Anyway, have to say I'm amazed at how awesome the conditions are at the moment, almost as good as 09/10 on the upper mountain, but like many others in the area, particularly those who work on the hill, I thought it was all over in March - how wrong we all were!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Great day at CairnGorm on Sunday, i spent most of the day over the back on skins, but that meant only three runs, but they were on mostly untracked snow. Managed a few runs first thing and at the end of the day via the lifts. Reckon i'd have got more runs braving the queues, but conditions over the back were so much better and very few people once past the summit. Last run was down the M2 and daylodge to below the elbow of the tow - not bad for the end of April.
If CML were going to open longer I'd go for the end of the day rather than the beginning as the soft spring conditions were much better than the icy corduroy of the early morning.
Staff (lack there of) is the problem CML have. With no skiing from the end of February all through March the seasonal staff have all gone, so the tows are being run with the permanent staff with breaks covered by ski patrol.
I've not been down the Ciste Gulley, but looking at the Gunbarrel I doubt that its filled.
One thing CML have done is piste between the elephant fence and the train - which made a great run. This has ussualy been cordoned off before.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ha...
Cairngorm charge £20 for a day pass, with perfect conditions, and still people find something to moan about 
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Haggis_Trap, I'm certainly not meaning to moan, as in "it was rubbish and they spoiled it for me" because I genuinely did have a great time.
The only point is that I want Cairngorm to do well financially so we'll all be able to use it in the future, and I think one way to at least help would be to take more money off willing people like me
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You know it makes sense.
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ap96, maybe they should have another queue at the ticket office, one for lift tickets at £20, and one for lift tickets for at least £20 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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feef, If the "at least £20" queue was shorter, I'd definitely take it!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yes, but it's constructive criticism. What I'm saying is that I enjoyed the day and want to do what I can to ensure that I can do the same thing next year, that CML employees will remain employed doing their jobs rather than being laid off because they aren't providing what the customer wants and aren't making enough money to survive.
What you're doing is just moaning about us moaning, which is even less productive.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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TheGeneralist, Have you contacted anyone at Cairngorm with your concerns about the weekend as they do listen to peoples opinions.
I would have been in the carpark shortly after you and was really surprised at how many people were already there considering the website said the first train up was 09.30. Is it possible the person you spoke to meant the Ptarmigan restaurant wouldnt be open until 10.00 as I would have expected the Cas bar to be open about 09.00 or earlier. There have been complaints in the past at the Cas bar closing so early and I thought that had been resolved so maybe there really was a staffing problem.
I think the majority of people had a great time and were just glad to be out skiing/boarding on snow we never expected to have so late in the season. Sadly there were people complaining about paying £21 and not the £15 it had been earlier in the week as they couldn't comprehend that there had been a lot more snow which opened up more runs, a few days earlier and it wouln't have been nearly so good.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Having read the above it seems pretty likely that the lift company werent prepared for a late snow flurry and the weekend came as a surprise. Ive only once skied Scotland before, back in the early 90's and that was Glenshee, might be tempted next year for a couple of long weekends, having seen the photos on SH's but it was the queues that put a dampener on it for me last time, and maybe thats still an issue. Also a beer at the end of the day would be a nice touch if it can be organised! 
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| Quote: |
| but it was the queues that put a dampener on it for me last time |
We skinned up and over the back - so didn't buy a ticket, so I'm not quoting from experience here. However, comments on here seem to suggest that queues were about 10 mins for the M1 poma, which is not too bad at all - especially compared with the 30 mins+ queues of the late 80s/early 90s.....
Anyway, as the now defunct Ski Scotland brochure always used to say: 'Queuing for a ski lift on a weekend beats queuing in a supermarket'........'
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ Everyone who has skied once or twice in Scotland seems to be a web expert on the Scottish resorts and how they could be run better
Simple fact of the matter is that Cairngorm laid off all their seasonal staff off in mid March when it looked like the season was over. (lifties / cafe staff / ski school / ticket office aren't required over the summer!). It has been a real bonus that mother nature blessed Scotland with some skiing at the end of April (6+ weeks after lifts last operated). £20 for a lift pass was a nice good will gesture from the lift company - and it attracted a big weekend crowd given the perfect 'alpine' conditions.
One of the biggest challenges for Scottish skiing is obviously the huge fluctuations in demand depending on snow cover. But in this case Cairngorm actually coped pretty well with 2000+ skiers turning up each day. For sure there was a long queue for tickets first thing in the morning - but after that I reckon it was only 10mins or so for the M1 poma?
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Markymark29, Weekend+good snow+sunshine=queues that includes any holiday.
There was an article about Scottish skiing in Fall-line magazine in Oct 2010 in it Per Jonsson said "Come on a weekday, miss the queues, bring some mates, leave the attitude. In Scotland no one cares how you look, what gear you're on, or the level you're at". also "In Scotland people ski because people want to ski: from beginners to more extreme riders and real ski bums". There is more along with some great photos, maybe someone has a link to the article, I think it sums up Scottish skiing pretty well.
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Mags2009, Perfect summary
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Anyway, as the now defunct Ski Scotland brochure always used to say: 'Queuing for a ski lift on a weekend beats queuing in a supermarket'........'
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That's a brilliant quote
It's easy to think of ways that the whole operation at Cairngorm at the weekend might in theory have been slicker, but I've got no idea of what resources they had available, and how much these were stretched to get the place up and running for such a big influx of visitors at short notice.
Like others have said though, I came away thinking that for somewhere that I imagine is only marginally viable, they undersold themselves a bit, and it would be a tragedy if they went under.
I was really surprised that the lift pass was only £21 for the day; given that people were virtually fighting to get on the funicular on the Sunday morning, they could have charged the normal rate and people would have happily paid. We would also have been delighted if there was the option of paying more for an extension of the lifts to say 7 pm on the Saturday. It seemed a bit premature closing them at 4.30 pm when it didn't get dark until 9 and the weather and snow conditions were so good.
An earlier opening time for ticket sales or a quicker means of dispensing these would have helped a lot with the initial congestion at the base station, which was a nightmare on the Sunday. Some better signage or direction to where to queue to get tickets vs. the funicular queue would have helped those unfamiliar with the centre and reduced some of the chaos. I thought there was going to be a riot! We'd tried to buy tickets for the whole weekend both online, and on the Saturday morning, but they only sold them on the day, for the day - presumably to mitigate against unpredictable closure due to the weather.
The near-biblical funicular queue at the base station on the Sunday morning was avoidable by an easy 15 minute walk up to the mid-station, which got us onto the M1 poma as soon as it opened.
As others have said, the queueing for the M1 poma during the day really wasn't nearly as bad as it looked. Even with 5 deep stacked queues, I timed it a couple of times and it was less than 10 minutes. I've waited longer than this for chairlifts in busy French resorts. The two T-bars at the top seemed a bit slower, but the convivial atmosphere made up for this. It was just classic watching the liftie belting the recalcitrant T-bar engine with a club hammer to get it going again when it broke down...
The Scottish resorts aren't like being in the Alps, and that's part of what makes them so special and fun.
We hiked up to the summit of Cairngorm four times over the weekend for some of the best runs of the trip, and that was the highlight of the weekend for me. A lift up would have de-valued that experience. Absolutely phenomenal 
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Quick question as we're heading up this weekend, can you buy tickets in town rather than queueing at the base? That way we can just queue for the train
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| TheGeneralist wrote: |
Had a great couple of days at Cairngorm this weekend but was left wondering about some things... They don't seem that keen on parting punters with their cash:
They were only charging afternoon rates for what was in fact a very good selection of pistes. The only downside were the utterly immense queues. Why did they not charge full price and open a couple more lifts OR even just open the railway at 8am instead of 9:20. I would happily have paid 20 quid more for that extra hour skiiing.
Cafe/Restaurant: We were in the carpark at about 8:15 as we figured we'd be able to get some breakfast while waiting for the train to start, but the cafe was shut till 10am. Then in the afternoon we agreed to meet in the bar after skiing, get a beer before heading for the car and thence Aviemore. When we got to the bar at around 4:30 it was closed and being cleaned and our mates were sat outside in the sun. There were huge numbers of people wandering about savouring an amazing day skiing and I'm sure loads of them would have loved a beer in the sun, but there were none to be had.
Don't get me wrong, I loather the blatant commercialisation of stuff like the Olympics and having to walk through the middle of the duty free at Manchester Airport to get to the departure gate, but in this case where you have a company losing money left and right, struggling to stay afloat in adverse conditions*; I'd really like to give them more of my hard earned cash, but wonder why they don't seem to want it.
* I'm only guessing they are struggling. If anyone can tell me the railway is now paid off and they're actually raking it in then I'm happy to be corrected. |
A rough guess says Cairngorm took perhaps perhaps £100k of total revenue over the recent sunny weekend.
A rough guess says they may have made perhaps £50k of net profit over the recent sunny weekend.
A rough guess says they may have gained perhaps an extra £25k of shortterm revenue and net profit if they had roughly doubled the lift ticket price to £40 a day.
Based on these rough calculations, which are all entirely my own subjective estimates, Cairngorm may not have maximized profit. But they may have gained some longterm goodwill from the competitive ticket pricing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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People should watch what the wish for, on the basis of current snow cover and the forecast it's intended to go to full price from Friday, but also offer the Cas T-bar (from top of Gunbarrel) and West Wall Poma (probably from Base 4, but maybe 2/3rds of the line). This is consistent with the pricing policy so far this season which has been full price if A) Cas Tow is open and B) you can ski to the mid-station from the top of the Ptarmigan Tow, discounted price if neither or only one of those conditions is met.
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Oh should also add, CML say they'll operate later than 4.30, but no times as yet.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| TheGeneralist wrote: |
Had a great couple of days at Cairngorm this weekend but was left wondering about some things... They don't seem that keen on parting punters with their cash:
They were only charging afternoon rates for what was in fact a very good selection of pistes. The only downside were the utterly immense queues. Why did they not charge full price and open a couple more lifts OR even just open the railway at 8am instead of 9:20. I would happily have paid 20 quid more for that extra hour skiiing.
Cafe/Restaurant: We were in the carpark at about 8:15 as we figured we'd be able to get some breakfast while waiting for the train to start, but the cafe was shut till 10am. Then in the afternoon we agreed to meet in the bar after skiing, get a beer before heading for the car and thence Aviemore. When we got to the bar at around 4:30 it was closed and being cleaned and our mates were sat outside in the sun. There were huge numbers of people wandering about savouring an amazing day skiing and I'm sure loads of them would have loved a beer in the sun, but there were none to be had.
Don't get me wrong, I loather the blatant commercialisation of stuff like the Olympics and having to walk through the middle of the duty free at Manchester Airport to get to the departure gate, but in this case where you have a company losing money left and right, struggling to stay afloat in adverse conditions*; I'd really like to give them more of my hard earned cash, but wonder why they don't seem to want it.
* I'm only guessing they are struggling. If anyone can tell me the railway is now paid off and they're actually raking it in then I'm happy to be corrected. |
A rough guess says Cairngorm took perhaps perhaps £100k of total revenue over the recent sunny weekend.
A rough guess says they may have made perhaps £50k of net profit over the recent sunny weekend.
A rough guess says they may have gained perhaps an extra £25k of shortterm revenue and net profit if they had roughly doubled the lift ticket price to £40 a day.
Based on these rough calculations, which are all entirely my own subjective estimates, Cairngorm may not have maximized profit. But they may have gained some longterm goodwill from the competitive ticket pricing. |
A rough guess says they may have made perhaps £50k EXTRA, had the bar stayed open till 2 hrs passed lift closing! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Though from the sentiment of the skiers who pipe up here, they ought to stock up a lot more beer!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No doubt Mr Tesco in Aviemore did quite well instead
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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>£9k daily takings were not unknown when it was an octagonal island bar (up till Autumn 2000), but then it did have enough tall fonts that if someone wanted 6 pints of lager for a round you could stick a glass under 6 different taps and you could easily have 8+ people serving without getting in each others way. The current layout is no where near as efficient, 3 staff serving and they are tripping over each other and the much reduced seating must severely limit the potential takings. DSUK have moved out of there office, so there is scope to restore the bar to it's previous size or even larger and the marble bartop of the old octagon is still in storage under the daylodge.
The only saving grace is that CML didn't have the money to brick up the fireplace and it was simply hidden in a cupboard when Level 1 behind the shop was converted into office space. It took five years, but eventually sanity prevailed and the office space was dismantled and the bar recreated, but certainly not as effectively either in a customer service sense or atmosphere sense.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^ wow Alan you have one hell of a good memory, I'm impressed (yet again)!
I've been in the old bar quite a few times but had completely forgotten what the layout was and what happened to the space, I recall it being lighter than it is now, is that because the DSUK offices nicked the windows too?
BTW, where has DSUK moved to?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There is a door into the DSUK area just inside the Burnside door to the bar, the bar used to go back towards the burn about the same amount in the other direction and there was quite a large window there looking over the burn. It was also completely open from one side to the other where the floor level changes, but part of that is a solid wall now which reduces the light also. The lower level which is now the shop has lost side windows to the DSUK office extension and the front has lost one of the large windows as it is behind solid shop display boards (has a large walking map on the outside).
DSUK still use their equipment store and changing rooms to operate from in winter, but they have relocated the office to the old BASI office at Glenmore Lodge, primarily for easier access in winter so they don't have to deal with road closures and having office staff needing to be evacuated from the hill at short notice, then potentially not get back to the office for several days.
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FAQ
