 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
jbob, since this isn't Spyderjon, am I allowed even to watch it? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Obviously this chancer isn't a patch on spyderjon.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
cran
cran
Guest
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
cran, Thanks for that, I have to admit I am very sloppy when it comes to scraping, I find if I don't go ott with the wax it's scraped itself off after a couple of runs, mind I'm not racing.
Boredsurfing, I don't think so as the DVD lasts a lot longer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arno, in fairness, he wouldn't need his edges much; bearing in mind what he skied on (or off!!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I have to say I prefer Coombs' presentation style  , though maybe his tuning technique isn't quite as refined (but maybe there is something in that...).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Notwithstanding presentation style, I want my skis serviced by someone with Aspergers at least.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Arno, I love it! we need a like button on this forum! haha
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
My missus complained on our recent trip. The recommended edge afaia for here ski (Roddignol Bandit XX) is 1 degree. I noticed in the both the 4 vids and the S&P version they were doing a 3 degree bevelled edge. Will increasing the degree a half or a full point give my missus the better edge she obviously felt she needed, or is it more complicated than that?
The other thought I had was that I had problem described were the core of the ski was preventing the edging correctly occuring. Do people have this problem, do they have the tool mentioned in the video to remove some of the core?
And finally, the E&W guide I printed off tells you to was in sections. This guy did it in one bang with a couple of passes straight down. What do you do?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Layne, The side angle is complicated. For a recreational skier it won't make a jot of difference, the higher the angle the better the cut but it wont last as long, many would say 4 is excessive. On the other hand if you want a quiet life you should try and agree with your misses as much as possible. If it were me I would get in line tell her I have sorted them to whatever she wants but just keep sharpening them to whatever they are, it's most unlikely you will get rumbled, if you you do claim it was a misunderstanding or some tool on the internet gave you duff advise.
Personally I use 88 on the side for the simple reason that it's the file guide I have.
On most skis the side wall issue is a one off that just needs doing once, I guess if you were going for high angles it might need doing more often.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Layne, You will get better edge hold with a 3 degree
Edge I have that on my B2
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
jbob,
| Quote: |
For a recreational skier it won't make a jot of difference, the higher the angle the better the cut but it wont last as long, many would say 4 is excessive.
|
That thinking rings a bell now with what I've read or been told... i.e., they'll be better but for a shorter time. So depends if you want redo them more often. I think there are times I would have liked more edge they are not actually that often.
Glen Charman, how often do you do your edges? I generally service for the week before we go and that's it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Thought i would have a look to learn something but these videos suck...
video 2
deburring should not be done by hand like he does.. this is stupid, you might as well dull the edges first, Use a deburring stone with the same angle guide you would use for sharpening
your base edge file should be your finest file not the coarse thing he uses
when sharpening side edges put the ski in the vise with the base facing away from you. doing it the way he does and pushing the file into the base isnt accurate
he doesnt use a £1 clamp to hold his diamond stones on his guide, again stupid
after three or four examples of poor practice I switched off... 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 16-04-12 17:15; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| jbob wrote: |
| Obviously this chancer isn't a patch on spyderjon. |
I rest my case, m'lud.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Layne wrote: |
jbob,
| Quote: |
For a recreational skier it won't make a jot of difference, the higher the angle the better the cut but it wont last as long, many would say 4 is excessive.
|
That thinking rings a bell now with what I've read or been told... i.e., they'll be better but for a shorter time. So depends if you want redo them more often. I think there are times I would have liked more edge they are not actually that often.
Glen Charman, how often do you do your edges? I generally service for the week before we go and that's it. |
I service my skis before I go. In resort I may run an Alu oxide stone down the edge to remove any burrs and if there lots of hard pack like last year I may run a 600 grit diamond stone down the edge mid week but that’s all.
B2 are a soft ski and will always lack a bit of edge hold IMO
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
| There's a load of things not right in those vids |
See that confuses the hell out of me... because this shop has been going since Nov 2005 and the man in the vid has been doing his own ski's for 30 years before that. So how can it be so wrong? How can such a large business be operating doing it so wrong?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Layne, he may get away with his methods doing lots of stuff manually by eye and feel with his level of experience but that is not the way you should train others in a How To series of videos....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret,
| Quote: |
| Layne, he may get away with his methods doing lots of stuff manually by eye and feel with his level of experience but that is not the way you should train others in a How To series of videos.... |
Ah that makes more sense. Cheers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Unfortunately ski shops around the world seem to be full of numpties with little training, & what training there is tends to be handed down from short term staff member to short term staff member with no fundemental understanding etc. Boot fitting is the same. These vids remind me of the Jib Tuning vids/posts that were on this forum a while back & there's loads of similar stuff on You Tube.
In no particular order, & in part repeating what skimottaret has said:
- if you use a diamond file/stone to remove case hardened burrs you'll knacker the tool. Use an alu-oxide stone. And unless you've had plenty of practice use it in a guide.
- do not take metal file to your base edge angle as you'll remove too much material. Alu-oxide only & maybe an occasional polish with a diamond file/stone. The only time to use a metal file would be to recut the base edge angle following it's removal during a stone grind, & then only use a fine 20 cuts per inch file, not a milled/ba$tard file as in the vid
- diamond files/stones (called a shop stone in the vid) should always be used with a lubricant otherwise the tool won't last long. In engineering you'd use an oil based lube but that would clog the base so use either water or better still an alcohol based lube.
- when working on the side edge/sidewall with manual tools the ski should be held in the face with the base away from you & pull the tool down the ski. It's best to lock the arm & just walk down the length of the ski. That is how the SVST guide shown in the vid was designed to be used.
- when sidewall removing or using a metal file on the side edge angle use full length strokes. The only time to use short strokes is if you need to work on just a small particular area.
- when polishing the side edge with a diamond file/stone use a guide, in fact the same guide should be used forall processes, ie deburring with an alu-oxide, sharpening with a metal file until a slight hanging burr is felt (not shown on the vid & it's the most important thing!) & polishing with diamonds.
- when using a hard gummi to remove the hanging burr hold the gummi flat on the base, do not try to hold it on the base angle. The gummi (which is like an ink eraser) has a slight amount of give in it & will mould on to the base edge angle to remove the burr. If you hold the gummi on the base edge angle it will mould around the side edge junction & blunt the edge. I use an arkansas stone held on the base edge to remove the hanging burr & do it without a guide but I've had loads of practice & the arkansas will not bleed around the junction.
- ironing both ways is ok! I only iron from tip to tail on race skis.
- ironing has two functions, one to melt & spread the wax to start with & then secondly to warm the ski. The ski/base must be warmed through if it is to properly absorb the wax. Touching the underside of the ski (ie the top sheet) at the tip & tail is how you gauge the temperature which should be warm but not hot. The vid is WRONG when it says the ski should not get hot. If the ski was supposed to stay cold then hot boxing, as used by top end racers/atheletes, would not work.
- it's a lot easier to push a plexi scraper when removing wax than pulling it.
- for recreational skiing you only need one brush, a brass 'un. Nylon or horsehair are great for additional polishing but they're not stiff enough to clean out the structure grooves both pre & post waxing.
At least the vid did say to tune the edges full length (with no detuning) which is excellent.
At 3 degree side edge is no less durable than a 2 or 1. Over 3 yes, it won't last as long, but a 3 is fine. Atomic & Fischer ship their skis from the factory with a 3 (=87) side edge & nobody has ever claimed that their edges aren't durable!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
spyderjon, So if I put an arkansas stone in a base guide it will deburr the edge and be sharper than using a gummi stone 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Glen Charman wrote: |
| spyderjon, So if I put an arkansas stone in a base guide it will deburr the edge and be sharper than using a gummi stone |
Yep, this a more advanced technique providing that the hanging burr isn't too big. You've done a good bit of servicing now Glen so have a go at doing it by hand when you have the ski base up/away from you after you've used your diamonds in your side edge guide. Hold the arkansas stone flat & slightly diagonally on/along the base edge & give it one smooth pass down the length of the ski. A good quality hard 800 grade arkansas stone is very smooth/flat so it's not hard to feel the flat of base edge. One pass will usually do it but check again for a hanging burr along the edge & give it a bit more either full length or in isolated areas as necessary.
Now comes the tricky bit. The arkansas stone throws up microscopic 'splinters' which then need to be removed with a gummi. However to do this you need to hold the gummi at 45 degrees to the ski base - meaning you are putting the gummi almost directly on top of the junction of the base & side edge, which looks like you'll blunt the edge. You must hold the gummi very lightly & apply NO pressure, just move the gummi along the edge under it's own weight - any more pressure & you can do more harm than good. I usually only teach this technique to racers & then only to those that exhibit 'good hands/touch' etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
spyderjon, I have done quite a few pairs now and am on my second set of files. I now have some decent vallorbe files that are very sharp and finish off filing with light cuts using a fine file and have to say i dont seem to get hardly any hanging burr and dont usually even bother with checking / removing burr. I rub back of fingernail with and against the burr to try to feel if there is a burr.. How do you check for hanging burr?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
spyderjon, My friend who was a toolmaker showed me how to do "draw" filing, which I tend to use on the base edge. I generally only need to use my diamond file to polish up the sides with hardly any filing ever needed. I was surprised to see all the deburring the guy on the video was doing I seem to be able to get away with a couple of passes with the deburring tool on the back of my pocket edge tool.
Am I doing something wrong?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
the conclusion I came to in the end was to simply continue taking my skis to my little man for a service.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Well, the French shop who did a base grind on my skis set my base angle to 0 and screwed up the feel.
I was going to have a go at putting it back to 1 myself, but having read this I've realised I'll probably just make it worse... Plus I'd need more tools...
On a more serious note, how anal/superawesome do you have to be to actually feel the difference between all these various methods? Or is it mainly a case of durability? (and in that case, how much difference does it make to the durability?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| bobmcstuff wrote: |
| how anal/superawesome do you have to be to actually feel the difference between all these various methods? |
| bobmcstuff wrote: |
| Well, the French shop who did a base grind on my skis set my base angle to 0 and screwed up the feel. |
There you go, you can tell for a start.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Yeah that's a difference in angle though... Not just potentially a few burrs or potentially less perfect finish...
If I change that angle, what difference will I notice between the various methods of doing so?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I think a little TLC goes a long way. As spyderjon, says you have to be careful to make sure you maintain almost with every pass your angle and I think many experienced tuners will be cringing watching those vids. I want my skis and board to last so I take the extra time and care to make sure I only take of enough to get the job done rather than go at it hammer and tongs.
On another note, if you put a lot of pressure through the edge you can notice the difference in the grip you get in the snow, particularly at speed. I still tend to stick with the factory settings for my equipment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
I was speaking to chap the other week in Les Arcs that lives in the valley and he now almost refuses to get his skis done locally. The point he made is that when the average punter takes their skis into be ground, sharpened and waxed, they expect to see a base that looks like its brand new. Therefore, they have a nasty habit of grinding the hell out of the bases taking far too much off and of course co*king up the angles! 3/4 of those services and you will start to reveal the core.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
bobmcstuff, I don't think you'd notice much difference between on method and another - unless one method left a burr. The ski could be really hooky if one was left on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret, to check for a hanging burr the skis need to be postioned in the vice for side edge work, ie with the base upright & away from you. Please the palm of your hand lightly on the edge at about a 30 degree down angle and slowly pull back your hand over the edge. You're feeling for the edge 'gripping/dragging' on your skin. The best area of the hand to feel it is the fleshy bit at the base of the fingers - if you're a bricklayer with leather hands you're screwed . If you do have hard skin then turn your hand over & draw the back of your palm/fingers over the edge. You need to file until you can just feel the hanging burr then stop & switch to polishing the edge.
(The burrs caused by skiing/stone dings go the opposite way so to feel for those you push your hand forward/away from you across the edge.)
What you've actually done is to cut the side edge just a tad more then necessary (which causes the burr) but raising a slight hanging burr is the only way to ensure that you have a crisp non-rounded junction were the base & side edges meet, but of course you then have to remove the hanging burr otherwise when the ski is tipped the burr will dig in to the snow.
Polishing the edge is important as a metal file will leave striations in the edge meaning that you'll have peaks that are unsupported by metal either side. These peaks will burr over sooner than a smooth edge making the edge less durable.
The usual 'finger nail' test used for checking if the ski edge is sharp must only be done after the hanging burr has been removed otherwise it is the burr that will remove a sliver of nail (not the edge) thus giving a false impression of a good job.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 17-04-12 22:18; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
jbob, yep, draw filing with a metal file is a great technique for getting an almost striation free surface however you really do not want to be removing any metal from the base edge angle at all. An alu-oxide stone doesn't cut in to the edge but will nip of any case/work hardened burrs that are sticking up. An occassional polish of base angle is ok but metal removal, usually at a great angle than intended, will quickly affect the feel of the ski. The amount of base edge angle determines how much the ski has to be tipped to engage the edge in the snow & a just slight increase in the angle means that the ski has to be tipped a lot more. Note that you can only ever add base edge angle, the only way to reduce base edge angle is to grind the ski which removes/flattens the base edge angle so it can then be recut.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
croskemj, dead right re the over-servicing from most shops. I'm sure that there are some great shops out there but most resort workshops are there to service their rental fleet & they're not interested in your nice 3 degree edge on your Atomics or your 2 degree Volkls & will simply put them through their machine & cut the side edge to either 0 or 1 degree (=90 or 89) meaning that not only do you loose edge grip but you also loose a good amount width of base edge reducing the life of the ski.
Go on to the websites of most shops, inc those in the UK, & they will proudly tell you that they will grind your ski to ensure that it's flat. Skis only need a grind when either the bases have worn overly concave, convex or the structure pattern has worn smooth, or a combination of those. The chances of either of these happening in under a dozen weeks of use is slim so the skis should not be ground. The p-tex base is only 1.1 to 1.2mm thick so it only takes a few grinds & there's nowt left. There is the rare occasion when the base edges are so battered that a grind is needed to sort 'em but I've only done that a handful off times in over 1500 services.
A slight bit of concavity, up to about a 1mm underfoot & 1.5-2mm in the tips is ok & many top makes/models are like this straight from the factory. The concavity is caused by the heat/pressure cycles in manufacture combined with the parabolic shape. It's hard to get a truly flat ski that has a 3D profile to it's top sheet.
Most shops like to fill the slightest scratches in the bases & then grind the ski because cosmetically it looks great, & it does, but not only is it not necessary it'll greatly reduce the life of the ski. Also a welded or candle p-tex repair, being a molten blob, will not absorb wax so performance is actually better if minor scratches are left, afterall they add a bit of extra structure. So long as there's no bits of base sticking up to cause a drag (which can be trimmed off with a metal scraper/chisel/sand paper) then minor scratches are battle scars to be worn with pride.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 17-04-12 22:41; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Glen Charman, tell him that duct tape on the bottom of his pants will make him look hard core
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
