 Poster: A snowHead
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Dear SnowHeads (BASI Members),
As you know, this years AGM will be held on 21 April in Hintertux, Austria. The position of Legal Director is contested and the serving Legal Director, Coral Riddal, is not seeking re-election.
I am contesting the election and seek your support and vote. If you have not exercised your vote I would encourage you to do so for all of the contested positions as it is through these elections that your voice, as a member, is heard. https://www.facebook.com/pages/BASI-Legal-Director-Elections/373607009346507
Having canvassed among the membership I have discovered that there are a number of issues with a legal aspect that have a direct impact on the individual member. The greatest recurring theme is the mutual recognition of qualification and the ease of mobility for work as a Snowsports Instructor. If elected by you this will be one of the areas that I intend to focus on, in addition to the general work of the Legal Director.
I am going to be in Verbier this week and anticipate being in Hintertux for the AGM and look forward to meeting those of you that will attend or be present for various training. I encourage you to exercise your franchise as members and to vote in the upcoming election. It is one way to have your organisation work for you.
If you have any issue that you believe of importance please do not hesitate to contact me on facebook or via t.stephenburke@gmail.com. I look forward to the election and trust that your vote will make the difference.
Every good wish for the remainder of a great season,
Kind regards
Stephen Burke
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Stewart - thanks for the note - to be read as a vote of confidence? I was only alerted to the existence of the website recently and as a general resource, it is amazing. I am only new to the sport in terms of qualification so all such discoveries are eye opening. It is a wider world than I imagined and so I do hope to use the site as both a resource and a place to post, if I have anything interesting to report. More than a one post wonder - definitely, but perhaps in a different forum!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Stephen Burke, welcome to SH's , always good to see BASI members join the site, could i suggest you post a similar thread in the Bend Zee Knees section as that is were most BASI types will be looking...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Top tip - thank you for that, and also for the welcome. This is really a great site. So many investing snow related things - a lifetime of Snowsports lie ahead. Very exciting, with or without a vote (but preferably with). Thanks again.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Stephen Burke, Do you have the links to the voting pages ? Presumably that's on the BASI site ?
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Please VOTE in the upcoming BASI elections
To exercise your vote you need to:
1. Get your BASI log-in details (email address, BASI number, online password).
2. Click on the link below - it takes you to the BASI voting log-in page and will prompt you to log in
http://www.basi.org.uk/content/member-vote-gm-21st-april-2012-hintertux.aspx
3. Go to resolution 1, scroll down and select your preffered candidate as the voting option (I am hoping that you will vote for me but exercising your vote is the most important thing)
4. You do the same to vote on the three other resolutions
5. This is the important bit - To register your votes you must click on the link (above the resolution tabs) that says 'click here'. This is what registers your vote(s)
6. Don't forget to like this page, and to share it with other BASI members. Encourage them to exercise their vote. This is what keeps the organisation alive. Make a positive choice to be involved and know that your vote does count.
Make your voice heard and vote. Thank you.
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Perhaps a moderator could move this to the Bend ze Knees section? As the comments have all been on this thread.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Stephen Burke, do you have any experience with age related discrimination?? 
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Just voted.
They don't make it easy. No obvious link (that I saw) when logged in, and then you have to log in a second time if you click the link above.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thank you for taking the time to vote, and I can only presume that part of the reason for the complexity is security related.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Stephen Burke, I can't see how, unless the security is based on not being able to find the link. I had to copy and paste from here.
Assuming that 'they' want a high turnout from members then I'd have thought an obvious link\banner in the members area would be simple to implement.
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You know it makes sense.
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Stewart, I was travelling to and from Switzerland from last Wednesday and had very limited access to the Internet when driving back. Apologies for any delay.
In response, I replied to Dunk to take the conversation off line as the nature of the query may not be one appropriate for a public forum. I have not heard from him/her but I have also not had an e mail from you so if you could resend it to me at either t.stephenburke@gmail.com or Burke.stephen@mac.com, I will respond as fully as I can.
There has been a lot of debate on Facebook which I am only catching up with this morning. I will of course respond to Phil's question, it will just be a little later today.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Dunk, It may be better to take this discussion off line and have a chat by e-mail with the specifics of the query. Stephen
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Dunk, Apologies, I understood from your post that there was possibly a private matter that you wished to discuss in relation to age discrimination and it was that which I was concerned to take off line.
With regard to the Eurotest - It has long been controversial and on the face of it, it appears to be a barrier to entry to the profession. All such things, at least from a legal perspective, would need to be justified as fundamental criteria for the undertaking of the profession. This would require much closer examination to determine whether it is indeed such a barrier to entry and also whether the allowance made for age is appropriate.
My feelings on matters of this nature are that anything which has a potential prohibitive or discriminatory element to it must be investigated to the full to ensure that the discriminatory potential is never fulfilled. Suitably qualified professionals should not be prevented from exercising their professional qualifications to the full.
It is not a big surprise that this has come to the fore as it is an issue that many people have raised and I suspect that it might contravene the concept of 'freedom of movement of workers' who are EU nationals, or with an appropriate work permit, within the EU. It is part of the issue in relation to mutual recognition of qualifications that appears to be a very common thread of discussion and one which I have suffered from so I am well aware of the consequences this may have on people who wish to work and excercise their profession abroad.
I do hope that this answers your questions in some way and I apologise for the delay.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Stephen Burke, thank you.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Stephen Burke, good to see you making some comments on the Eurotest issue although I'm not sure I can define a clear personal position on the issue legalise aside.
Up until now I have had absolutely no idea who to vote for because I haven't seen any compelling argument one way or the other, I'm afraid CVs are not enough to get me voting great though they might read.
So try persuading me why I should vote for you, for example what issues do you feel are important and/or what needs changing and with regards the above Eurotest issue are you neutral on the subject or inclined towards one side of the debate or the other personally?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| roga wrote: |
Stephen Burke, good to see you making some comments on the Eurotest issue although I'm not sure I can define a clear personal position on the issue legalise aside.
Up until now I have had absolutely no idea who to vote for because I haven't seen any compelling argument one way or the other, I'm afraid CVs are not enough to get me voting great though they might read.
So try persuading me why I should vote for you, for example what issues do you feel are important and/or what needs changing and with regards the above Eurotest issue are you neutral on the subject or inclined towards one side of the debate or the other personally? |
Agreed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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roga, scooby_simon, The Eurotest issues are as I understand it twofold - training related and with legal implications for the ability to work legally.
Personally, I cannot work in France as I am only Level 2 qualified, and this is disappointing. I am only allowed to work in Italy for one month a year. I speak the languages of both countries and believe that there is a level of discrimination with regard to me exercising this profession. I don't believe that this is right. I appreciate that there is some control required for certain professions but do not believe that this is demonstrable in the area of snowsports, once one is appropriately licenced, insured and armed with the necessary permit to work. I am an EU national and should be able to work given that I have an appropriate qualification to do so within the Union. Eurosceptic or not, we all have the right to work. Beyond the confines of the EU this is a different matter. In this regard the Eurotest can have a discriminatory effect as against those who wish to teach. Technical ability is clearly necessary, but a question must be asked whether or not it is necessary for someone who wants to teach to the level of advanced intermediate skiing, and if making it compulsory is discriminatory.
Also, I have come to this profession as a second profession, twice the age of almost everyone that I trained with over the winter. I do have another profession that I will engage in for some years to come but will eventually want to teach. As things currently stand my options will be limited. Some would say Switzerland and Austria are not bad options and that is true. I would like to be involved in some change in this regard - not for just selfish motives, but to assist some of the truly gifted teachers who have not the means, time or youth to pursue things to the dizzying heights of the sport, but who want to be good teachers and bring the wonder of snowsports to as many as possible.
On the training side - there may be compelling arguments but not being at that level, it would not be appropriate to comment. A balance may be required but I believe that there must be some lateral thinking that can be applied where more needs are served.
A clear issue that has been in the threads has been conflict of interest - something that is emotive and has sparked debate. I am sure that there is a Conflict of Interest Policy that is properly applied, but it may be that disclosures need to be more available for certain things.
I have also encountered comments of conspiracy theories and issues about who stands - there may be some truth in this but I have observed that it is also important to be a candidate. Not always the simplest of things to do either, but for me it has been a worthwhile and rewarding experience. I have learned a lot. My primary issue was to encourage people to vote and hopefully they will. Additionally there appears to have been no small amount of discussion in recent days. I do not expect that it will stay at this level but hope to precipitate continued debate on meaningful issues relevant to the membership. Once aired, solutions can be found and implemented in an appropriate manner. I suspect that as with many organisations, things may move more slowly than one would like, but progress happens in small steps and manangement of ones own expectation is important. I want to encourage more people to vote and be active, to participate in a positive way that contributes to the organisation as a whole
Organisations should not remain static - those steering the ship should, while that is their job, seek out and resolve issues. Membership brings with it the affiliation, but also the obligation to raise issues as they arise and to work with all to find solutions that work. This is not always easy.
Transparency and good corporate governance - the stewardship of this organisation, its members interests and funds is also important.
I do not know if this will be sufficiently compelling to encourage you to vote. I do know that, if elected or not, this is just the beginning of a life time of involvement in snowsports, in the best office I have ever had.
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Stephen Burke, after that you have my vote
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| Stephen Burke wrote: |
| Personally, I cannot work in France as I am only Level 2 qualified, and this is disappointing. I am only allowed to work in Italy for one month a year. I speak the languages of both countries and believe that there is a level of discrimination with regard to me exercising this profession. I don't believe that this is right. I appreciate that there is some control required for certain professions but do not believe that this is demonstrable in the area of snowsports, once one is appropriately licenced, insured and armed with the necessary permit to work. I am an EU national and should be able to work given that I have an appropriate qualification to do so within the Union. Eurosceptic or not, we all have the right to work. Beyond the confines of the EU this is a different matter. In this regard the Eurotest can have a discriminatory effect as against those who wish to teach. Technical ability is clearly necessary, but a question must be asked whether or not it is necessary for someone who wants to teach to the level of advanced intermediate skiing, and if making it compulsory is discriminatory. |
That exactly sums up my issue with the current situation. The reality is that opportunities to work in Europe as a L2 or L3 are reducing and depending on the upcoming 'EU Card' negotiations could become non existent.
You already have my vote.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Stephen Burke wrote: |
| Technical ability is clearly necessary, but a question must be asked whether or not it is necessary for someone who wants to teach to the level of advanced intermediate skiing, and if making it compulsory is discriminatory. |
Hi Stephen,
Sorry but I have to disagree here. The results of your proposition - of allowing teachers to decide upon the grade that they will stop (moving towards being fully qualified) at and, consequentially, the ability level of the students they are able to teach - would be that there would (have to) be different grades of teachers within a ski school. I personally don't think this is a good idea. All teachers should be able to teach any clients that arrive at the school asking for tuition, regardless of the ability of the client.
The way in which the schools (in our area anyway) look at it is that if you are good enough to pass the tests (min ISIA) then you're good enough to teach their clients. If you're not then you're not! I find this strange as there are many BASI L2's, with a great deal of experience in teaching, who would be able to teach any of the standard clients we have and give the clients wonderful lessons, which could only enhance the reputation of the school. But these are the rules and I can see why they are there; you would end up with a situation where people would request a lower level (qualification) teacher (even if they were just as experienced as everyone else) as it would be cheaper than a higher level, and this simply wouldn't work.
This said, I do agree that the current system (in some regions of Italy anyway) is discriminatory. With your L2, you can only work for 2 weeks in our area, but with the same (trainee) grade, if you were Polish or one of a few other nationalities, you could work the full season. Can we (BASI) change this? Simple answer is no, as the blurring of the regulations is more to do with the number of Eastern Europeans now asking for lessons than with the grade/skill level of the instructor.
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Stephen Burke,
Many thanks for your much more detailed reply.
However who says you cannot work in France and Italy? Over the years i have heard many rumours of what you can and cannot do with various qualifications most of which are inaccurate. Who agreed these restrictions? I have seen various documents which have been signed by BASI (If you read this thread most are linked) but are these documents legal? Does BASI have Legal power to agree rules which affect my employment rights throughout europe? I think not.
In non of these documents do i see that any Goverment department has been involved. I thought that in the UK any such agreements would have to be passed through Parliment?
Are Basi agreements with other ski associations anything more than 'Cartel' agreements?
Best of luck in the elections.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| The results of your proposition - of allowing teachers to decide upon the grade that they will stop (moving towards being fully qualified) |
I qualified with BASI as an "Alpine Ski Instructor", sadly now described as "Level 2". There was no mention of any sort of 'trainee' status when I gained the qualification. When the scope of my qualification has been questioned the response has been (to paraphrase) "anything on piste".
Subsequent CPD has seen me train every year, gain International Instructing & Coaching qualifications outside BASI, complete selected ISIA modules including Mountain Safety training, and work a significant number of hours in 2 EU nations teaching skiing in addition to many hours teaching here in the UK. Yet my working rights within the EU are restricted, and that is disappointing.
If the Level 2 qualification does not qualify you as a "Ski Instructor" I suspect there could be a few gap year parents who'll have an issue, plus the Trades Description implications to the sale of these training courses.
Personally I have little interest in working in France, but I do see my working opportunities in Europe being whittled away hence my stand on the subject.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
Stephen Burke,
Many thanks for your much more detailed reply.
However who says you cannot work in France and Italy? Over the years i have heard many rumours of what you can and cannot do with various qualifications most of which are inaccurate. Who agreed these restrictions? I have seen various documents which have been signed by BASI (If you read this thread most are linked) but are these documents legal? Does BASI have Legal power to agree rules which affect my employment rights throughout europe? I think not.
In non of these documents do i see that any Goverment department has been involved. I thought that in the UK any such agreements would have to be passed through Parliment?
Are Basi agreements with other ski associations anything more than 'Cartel' agreements?
Best of luck in the elections. |
Stewart,
Restrictions on working are usually imposed at regional or national level and are often the result of influential lobby groups protecting their turf through rules and regulations imposed at either a communal, regional or national level.
In some cases it is merited because of the technical knowledge required - for example, within Europe, a lawyer may only practice the law of the jurisdiction in which he/she is qualified until he/she re-qualifies - usually by taking a qualified lawyers transfer test after a certain amount of time. The logic is that you have to have the necessary language skills to read the rules and the experience to know how the system works. I give this example as it is the profession I am most familiar with and I have sat more than one such test.
Comparatively, primary school teachers need to seek recognition of the teaching council in the country in which they work and in many must also pass a language test to be able to have a full time permanent post. Snowsports instruction does require a technical level, but once reached, it is somewhat different to the above, firstly because for the most part it is seasonal (so an additional requirement for a full time permanent post might not be unreasonable) and also because of the nature of the work. A language test might be justifiable but as it is international, not speaking the local language may not be a disadvantage, as was obvious to me in Switzerland.
I do not know of the documents to which you refer or their contents and in the interests of providing you with a reply, I will seek them out later. It is my understanding that BASI sets the training requirements and issues those who have attained the level with a badge and licence. For that licence to be valid certain criteria must be met. Once met that provides the individual with transparent credentials as an instructor and insurance coverage.
The issue in relation to ability to work is the mutual recognition of those qualifications in other countries by the equivalent of BASI. In the EU the fight in many professions is for this mutual recognition, such that x in Ireland is the same as Y in Estonia. Where one country seeks to impose a test that is a 'barrier to entry' for most applicants, it may be discriminatory and be subject to chalenge under EU law. I suspect the documents that you refer to relate to levels of equivalence. I will investigate this further. Please bear with me as it might not happen immediately. If you can guide me to the documents by a link that would speed things up.
To answer your last two questions - in the UK it may be that such agreements need parliamentary approval but that is not the issue. The issue is whether in the place you want to work, whether some administrative body has the power to say that you are not qualified to a level that is recognisable by them. If so then that can be problematic, and more so when others with similar or identical qualifications are recognised. You pose a challenging question but he use of the word cartel is one which should be used with some degree of caution because the implications of such an allegation are wide reaching and significant. At its core, Cartel behaviour is exclusionary and from what I understand BASI has been on a permanent mission of inclusion for its members internationally. Some readers of this post may or may not agree with that, giving at least two solutions - stand in the next round of elections and be heard that way or continue to use this and other discussion threads to raise material issues to be dealt with.
In conclusion - you get your more than one post wonder answer I hope.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
Stephen Burke,
Many thanks for your much more detailed reply.
However who says you cannot work in France and Italy? Over the years i have heard many rumours of what you can and cannot do with various qualifications most of which are inaccurate. Who agreed these restrictions? I have seen various documents which have been signed by BASI (If you read this thread most are linked) but are these documents legal? Does BASI have Legal power to agree rules which affect my employment rights throughout europe? I think not.
In non of these documents do i see that any Goverment department has been involved. I thought that in the UK any such agreements would have to be passed through Parliment?
Are Basi agreements with other ski associations anything more than 'Cartel' agreements?
Best of luck in the elections. |
Stewart,
Restrictions on working are usually imposed at regional or national level and are often the result of influential lobby groups protecting their turf through rules and regulations imposed at either a communal, regional or national level.
In some cases it is merited because of the technical knowledge required - for example, within Europe, a lawyer may only practice the law of the jurisdiction in which he/she is qualified until he/she re-qualifies - usually by taking a qualified lawyers transfer test after a certain amount of time. The logic is that you have to have the necessary language skills to read the rules and the experience to know how the system works. I give this example as it is the profession I am most familiar with and I have sat more than one such test.
Comparatively, primary school teachers need to seek recognition of the teaching council in the country in which they work and in many must also pass a language test to be able to have a full time permanent post. Snowsports instruction does require a technical level, but once reached, it is somewhat different to the above, firstly because for the most part it is seasonal (so an additional requirement for a full time permanent post might not be unreasonable) and also because of the nature of the work. A language test might be justifiable but as it is international, not speaking the local language may not be a disadvantage, as was obvious to me in Switzerland.
I do not know of the documents to which you refer or their contents and in the interests of providing you with a reply, I will seek them out later. It is my understanding that BASI sets the training requirements and issues those who have attained the level with a badge and licence. For that licence to be valid certain criteria must be met. Once met that provides the individual with transparent credentials as an instructor and insurance coverage.
The issue in relation to ability to work is the mutual recognition of those qualifications in other countries by the equivalent of BASI. In the EU the fight in many professions is for this mutual recognition, such that x in Ireland is the same as Y in Estonia. Where one country seeks to impose a test that is a 'barrier to entry' for most applicants, it may be discriminatory and be subject to chalenge under EU law. I suspect the documents that you refer to relate to levels of equivalence. I will investigate this further. Please bear with me as it might not happen immediately. If you can guide me to the documents by a link that would speed things up.
To answer your last two questions - in the UK it may be that such agreements need parliamentary approval but that is not the issue. The issue is whether in the place you want to work, whether some administrative body has the power to say that you are not qualified to a level that is recognisable by them. If so then that can be problematic, and more so when others with similar or identical qualifications are recognised. You pose a challenging question but he use of the word cartel is one which should be used with some degree of caution because the implications of such an allegation are wide reaching and significant. At its core, Cartel behaviour is exclusionary and from what I understand BASI has been on a permanent mission of inclusion for its members internationally. Some readers of this post may or may not agree with that, giving at least two solutions - stand in the next round of elections and be heard that way or continue to use this and other discussion threads to raise material issues to be dealt with.
In conclusion - you get your more than one post wonder answer I hope.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| Stephen Burke wrote: |
| Technical ability is clearly necessary, but a question must be asked whether or not it is necessary for someone who wants to teach to the level of advanced intermediate skiing, and if making it compulsory is discriminatory. |
Hi Stephen,
Sorry but I have to disagree here. The results of your proposition - of allowing teachers to decide upon the grade that they will stop (moving towards being fully qualified) at and, consequentially, the ability level of the students they are able to teach - would be that there would (have to) be different grades of teachers within a ski school. I personally don't think this is a good idea. All teachers should be able to teach any clients that arrive at the school asking for tuition, regardless of the ability of the client.
The way in which the schools (in our area anyway) look at it is that if you are good enough to pass the tests (min ISIA) then you're good enough to teach their clients. If you're not then you're not! I find this strange as there are many BASI L2's, with a great deal of experience in teaching, who would be able to teach any of the standard clients we have and give the clients wonderful lessons, which could only enhance the reputation of the school. But these are the rules and I can see why they are there; you would end up with a situation where people would request a lower level (qualification) teacher (even if they were just as experienced as everyone else) as it would be cheaper than a higher level, and this simply wouldn't work.
This said, I do agree that the current system (in some regions of Italy anyway) is discriminatory. With your L2, you can only work for 2 weeks in our area, but with the same (trainee) grade, if you were Polish or one of a few other nationalities, you could work the full season. Can we (BASI) change this? Simple answer is no, as the blurring of the regulations is more to do with the number of Eastern Europeans now asking for lessons than with the grade/skill level of the instructor. |
Wayne - I think that we actually agree on many points. There is no compulsion for a person to go beyond BASI Level 2 and the problem is that of mutual recognition of that level which, as you indicate, is inconsistent in both recognition and application. To me that is the key issue identified in your post. What follows from that are school, structural and administrative issues that are linked but which can probably be treated as separate and discreet. The costs issues you identify are of course relevant and important from the perspective of running a business but not strictly legal issues except where there is a minimum standard imposed by law that is not being met but this does not arise if the individual cannot work because the qualification held is not mutually recognised by the licensing authority in that country. I see that there is a potential problem in your very last sentence - as it appears there is possible discrimination between equivalent qualifications which is being justified on the grounds of language related economic need, rather than any local training requirement not being met. I believe that BASI may well have a voice in this regard, because the forces of the market will regulate who gets the work, and regulating in a manner such as you have intified may well be discriminatory. Another nettle to grasp!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| Wayne wrote: |
| The results of your proposition - of allowing teachers to decide upon the grade that they will stop (moving towards being fully qualified) |
I qualified with BASI as an "Alpine Ski Instructor", sadly now described as "Level 2". There was no mention of any sort of 'trainee' status when I gained the qualification. When the scope of my qualification has been questioned the response has been (to paraphrase) "anything on piste".
Subsequent CPD has seen me train every year, gain International Instructing & Coaching qualifications outside BASI, complete selected ISIA modules including Mountain Safety training, and work a significant number of hours in 2 EU nations teaching skiing in addition to many hours teaching here in the UK. Yet my working rights within the EU are restricted, and that is disappointing.
If the Level 2 qualification does not qualify you as a "Ski Instructor" I suspect there could be a few gap year parents who'll have an issue, plus the Trades Description implications to the sale of these training courses.
Personally I have little interest in working in France, but I do see my working opportunities in Europe being whittled away hence my stand on the subject. |
It will be more than just gap year parents who are disappointed. AndAnotherThing - I am at the begining of this journey into Snowsports as another profession. The time and cost invested are significant, and unlike many other jobs, for many the return is a low yield relative to the investment.
I do understand that some level of grading in terms of payment relative to skill and experience may be applicable, but if you are at the level you are at the level (in my case this was nothing short of a miracle, but I got there) and it is the being at that level that must be fairly recognised. As with all jobs the fight for what you believe to be fair compensation is your own (unless it is below the legal threshold).
Thank you for your support and thoughts on this.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Stephen Burke wrote: |
| The costs issues you identify are of course relevant and important from the perspective of running a business but not strictly legal issues except where there is a minimum standard imposed by law that is not being met but this does not arise if the individual cannot work because the qualification held is not mutually recognised by the licensing authority in that country. |
I think you have hit the nail on the head there Stephen
| Stephen Burke wrote: |
| I see that there is a potential problem in your very last sentence - as it appears there is possible discrimination between equivalent qualifications which is being justified on the grounds of language related economic need, rather than any local training requirement not being met. I believe that BASI may well have a voice in this regard, because the forces of the market will regulate who gets the work, and regulating in a manner such as you have intified may well be discriminatory. Another nettle to grasp! |
To tell you the truth there's not much (if anything) BASI can do about it.
eg. There are a few hundred BASI people qualified to work in Italy (or France for that matter). There were (2012 season) over 8,000 AMSI teachers working just in our area (Trentino) each of whom has the equivalent of BASI's L4. accross Italy there are many, many more.
On the same point, different nations have different attitudes and it would be silly to assume that everyone will behave as others do in any given situation. I read somewhere something like: The British stick to the rules, The French pretend they haven’t heard of them, the Italians simply ignore them and the Germans use them to make a profit. Not sure if this is true but.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Wayne wrote: |
| I read somewhere something like: The British stick to the rules, The French pretend they haven’t heard of them, the Italians simply ignore them and the Germans use them to make a profit. Not sure if this is true but..... |
And the Irish? How about, if elected will do everything possible to make sure everyone has a fair chance at getting a slice of the Snowsports cake
I hope all is well there in Trentino, I studied at the university there and loved it. My early forays at skiing were on Monte Bondone - it was cheap and I was not very good. I hope to return next season. A discussion in person over a macchiato would be most agreeable!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks for the very interesting comments Stephen Burke, certainly I'm more inclined to vote now!
I agree with much of what you say and as a 40+ year old L2 working towards L3 I have specific concerns with regards my rights to practice being further restricted within and outside the EU. I have made some further comments on that and other issues in the other thread started by your 'opponent' so I guess I won't repeat here but it would be interesting to hear your comments on what I have written there and perhaps you could tease out any differences (if any) the two of you might have - after all that's what elections are about ... or used to be in the 'good old days'
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| If you can guide me to the documents by a link that would speed things up. |
Stephen Burke here you go www.pleva.net/public.html
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, roga,
I have read through the documents provided via the link and see that the green paper provided a opportunity to reassess many things. What is not clear is the extent of input by the membership to the response and/or the level of engagement with other licensing organisations. As I was not a member of BASI at the time I did not have any input into any debate or discussion on the topic and so cannot comment on the content in that regard.
Could the content have been different? I am sure it could.
Could it have been better? That depends on many factors, not least of which is the activity and push by the membership on the issues raised. I do not know if this was specifically brought to the attention of the membership for comment, but the time worn comment of "ignorance of the law is no defence" should also be borne in mind.
Is there anyone to blame? The quality and extent of the debates in recent days on various threads has varied but in the age of social media such as is available to us, for the membership not to have sparked the debate can be considered just as lamentable as the organisation not having done so. It is easy to criticise in hindsight, it is far more difficult to raise the issue and deal with opinion and fallout or hard road that may need to be faced to get the best deal. We can all 'put lipstick on the pig', but having done so we each still have to face the reality that is a pig with lipstick and move on.
One difficulty is clear, BASI does not seem to be being recognised as the official entity for the licensing of Snowsports instructors in the UK and this means that BASI members and licence holders may be at a disadvantage from the get go. This is not ideal and recognition in this regard, if not forthcoming, may not help matters. It is not clear if this status has changed or if it is likely to in the immediate future. If it has not then the membership must become more active in petitioning for this recognition so as to give the association the standing it deserves; provided that the members feel deserving.
Being new to the organisation, I am struck by the breath of opinion and quality of input, but also the demands made without always promoting solutions or initiation of debate. What is clear though, is that there are a lot of serious issues to be dealt with, some more urgently than others, more people need to engage to give the organisation a standing and to be able to pack a greater punch when that punch is necessary.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| roga wrote: |
| , certainly I'm more inclined to vote |
Please exercise your vote on all board nominees. I started this when I heard that out of some 6,000 members sometimes less than 100 vote. I know that at least 10 have done so this time, so if nothing else I am hoping to achieve a higher turnout.
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Stephen Burke, A few points... prior to Facebook SH's was the only social media venue actively discussing BASI politics and this forum is monitored by a paid BASI employee who goes by beanie1 here. It was reveled here that BASI had made a submission with regards to the Green Paper and was asked several times to publish their/our submission which they declined to do. THat the association made a submission to the EU without agreement of or notification to the membership was deeply disturbing. BASI is rightly trying to become the recognised body in negotiations with the EU and has done good work with the UK government to obtain this recognition. The recent explosion of debate is in my opinion a combination of lots of pent up pub chat and plenty of people who feel that they have been fobbed off by BASI in the past when making reasonable requests or presentations.
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Stephen Burke, I stood for the position of Secretary at the AGM last November. It was the only contested vote and between the two candidates we got about 300 votes. Higher than usual, but a very small fraction of the eligible electorate.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, Well done on the turnout and for standing. I realize now that it is not easy but whatever the outcome I have learned a lot about this organisation and about politics. Usually I am canvassing for a candidate or a referendum issue and not for myself. I hope you will continue to be active and not shy away from standing again.
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Stephen Burke, hope to stand again. For most of my career I've worked with membership-driven organisations, either as an elected member or as a professional adviser, so I'm keen to contribute to BASI if I can.
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FAQ
