Don't know why but I find collisions on the snow really intriguing (especially when it's not clear that one person is 100% to blame), could watch them all day.
Jeesus, the slowmo of the (attached) ski braking in the last one is nuts! Poor girl!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ski, boarder (and last one wont play) at fault IMO and without seeing the 'bigger' picture when you can see the whole thing (in the second case) unfold before your eyes. The boarder is uphill when the collision happens therefore would be held at fault, even though he makes emergency efforts to avoid the collision... a case of being unlucky as opposed to being careless but downhill right of way is downhill!
Part of me really wants to get involved in this thread, and part of me knows that it will spiral off into a quagmire within hours...
What the hell. On all of them I'd say the person at fault is quite clear. However, I suspect the debate over the middle one will descend rapidly into a boarders vs skiers slanging match, with irrelevant comments about blind-spots causing most of the issues. I know who I think is responsible for that one (it's quite clear, to my mind), but I don't want to be the one to set the touch paper alight...
The last one is particularly nasty - what a complete and utter moron to ski into a race course just over a jump. Hope the racer was okay, looked like she might have taken quite an injury out of that collision.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 8-03-12 17:22; edited 2 times in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
in the third case (managed to see it in the end) the race course is a 'managed' piste under race conditions therefore the coach (who it was) should not have been on the piste therefore he was at fault. The racer would have assumed the course was clear therefore would have been non the wiser until it was too late. FWIW FIS tightened up protocols massively on the back of this crash.
After all it is free
After all it is free
That last one is bad, I've never seen a ski do that and its blatently obvious who was to blame.
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1 Looking at camera rather than where he was going - tool but both probably in the same group.
2 Boarder although skier girl is clearly a sucker for punishment if she wanted to cut back across him again.
3 Ha ha - somewhat ironically in an FIS race under FIS rules the lycra clad racer is at fault
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In many clips I've posted who's to blame is clear (at least to me), just saying that the ones that are not clear are more intriguing to me.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
the one posted at 17.20 - the skier as the boarder was geographically nearer the bottom taking the low line above the restaurant. The fact that skier was putting in an emergency stop when he collided shows he was coming from above.
17.21 - the skier with the helmet cam is to blame as the other skier is coming in below him... the lower skier ends up taking evasive action which actually results in the crash finally but the helmet cam guy is physically uphill.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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The snowboarder ended up with two open cuts which left a couple of scars.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 8-03-12 17:36; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
at 17.28 I think the skier is coming back up the hill (difficult to see actually) therefore id saying that the boarder but in a situation like that where the skier is turning back up hill it would have been prudent for her to think of the difficulty the rider would have had in avoiding her (if she was skillful enough)... but I think the helmet cam rider is at fault but again need to see the bigger picture from another perspective.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
at 17.30 posting. The riders are attempting to made the mound of snow into a jump therefore the 'rule' is look before you leap. The first person 'lands' (no air really) and has to make a change in direction - the second person coming over a millisecond behind, has nowhere to go as the first person controls their landing in front of him therefore the second rider is to blame (person on left as we look). In fact 'group' mentality like this whether it be skiing or boarding is usually to blame for most crashes at the end of the day in some way or another.
17.33 posting - well at the end of the day the racer is at fault (of course) but the lift company and pisteurs and potentially the Mairie would be ultimately be held responsible for not setting up enough safety netting / far enough away from a lift etc... but the racer is at fault of course. Again a very unfortunate turn of events.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
16.30 -the two boarders. Looks 50:50 to me.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'm skiing next week. I don't think I should be looking at this!! I'm quite cautious when the pistes are busy - this will make me even more cautious.
Rcaer at fault - but the course setters/club are obviously culpable for not putting up a safety fence or ensuring that every racer definitely was not going to ski out at speed. Some of the Go-pros are just weird, both seem to show a skier skiing uphill into a boarder minding their own business. Think the point is on a wide piste, skiable area everyone's responisbility is to be very aware.
I've had collisions like the Japow trees myself in trees, sometimes your lines converge and neither of you was doing anything wrong.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I do wonder if the FIS rules and how they are laid out should be revisited? Sadly an increasing number of people believe the downhill skier rule 1) proves that they are the most important person on the mountain, 2) is the only rule that matters. That rule is not the be all and end all and is not any more fundamental or absolute than the rules regarding stopping on the piste, starting off or joining from the side.
A couple of times this season I've been very aggressively blocked and ultimately forced to standstill to avoid running off the side of the snow in the Cas Gunbarrel by parents determined that no-one has the right to pass their little darlings. This kind of behaviour is not just selfish, it's irresponsible and potentially dangerous. The downhill skier rule is not a mandate for parents to deliberately run people either off the piste or potentially into other innocent parties.
Everybody on the hill needs to be aware of what's going on around them and all hill users need to respect each other.
Everybody on the hill needs to be aware of what's going on around them and all hill users need to respect each other.
I agree with that and I would equate it to driving a car. You should know, within reason, what is going on behind you before you stop. In a car you have a rearview mirror to help with that (MSM). In an emergency stop situation though it is the responsibility of the driver behind to have left enough space to stop too so I do think that most of the responsibility is on the uphill skier/boarder to "read" the piste in front of them and anticipate where others will/could go just like you should do when you're driving. I don't think skiers/boarders should just stop dead on a piste without knowing that it is safe to do so and that it is clear behind them. However, if somebody falls in front of you then I think you shouldn't be skiing so close to them that you'd fall into them.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Winterhighland, Agree about the aggressive "blocking". Nothing is more certain to generate marginal overtaking moves and place their kids in more danger than someone deliberately obstructing faster traffic. In my mind it's as bad as someone deliberately driving along an open road at 10mph below the speed limit (as it's their "right") yet refusing to pull over when appropriate to let the stream of queued traffic past.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I'd also like to add that I believe that skiers/boarders who have more skill and experience should take more of the responsibility for collision avoidance than those less able - not to say that those less able shouldn't learn - and that small children should be given as wide a berth as possible but it's up to parents and instructors to teach them how to ski/board responsibly.
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geetee, That's a bit problematic because it absolves some of the idiots who know just enough to be dangerous - if you are going to get up speed you can't handle or control accurately then you are a problem. IME lots of Brit guys in the20-30 bracket fall into this "have-a- go hero" category. Equally some of the nervous ninnies cluttering the home run at 4pm really would be better off downloading.
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skisimon wrote:
However, I suspect the debate over the middle one will descend rapidly into a boarders vs skiers slanging match, with irrelevant comments about blind-spots causing most of the issues.
Do you think that having a blind-spot is irrelevant then? I don't think that two skiers would have had that accident; and I suspect two boarders would have collided properly the first time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I think that some of these are actually created by the act of filming itself.
The first one is obvious where the second guy looks at the camera rather than down the slope and skis into his mate.
DB's clip at 17.28 shows the cameraman is obviously concentrating on their friend snowboarding (in the red trousers). The girl in the light blue jacket (coming the other way?) is clearly visible at the top of the frame at 0.28 yet because the cameraman is concentrating on filming their friend they presumably don't notice that someone is going "against the flow" so to speak.
The three snowboarders in DB's 17.30 clip are also performing for their cameraman and think that a double jump will look good yet they clearly do not have the skill to pull off such a stunt resulting in an almost inevitable crash. (I love the way that they just sit down where they fell, under the jump and right in line of anyone else following them ).
The conclusion from the above evidence is, therefore - video cameras make skiers less aware of their surroundings and should be banned on the slopes
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
lol .. whining about parents blocking of their 3 stone kids from speeding skiers n boarders.. just wait or go slower.. my wifes mate was trying to negotiate a soft mogul descent to a bridge over the road the usual show boaters barrelling past trying to look good at the end of a long run .. she made an not to be unexpected for an obvious beginner random turn.. this guy flying along swerved lost it n fell over in a heap of skis goggles n gloves.. she was distraught he was angry.. i caught up shortly after n told her she had done nothing wrong.. your a obvious beginner he is an back bottom hole .. funnily enough when it wasnt just a 5 ft 2 woman on her own being apologetic he shut up.. typical moron lady's front bottom
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
On a crowded piste, avoiding other skiers is like playing one of those 'bullet hell' computer games. You need to be able to perceive the universe in at least 4 dimensions in order to never collide with anything. You also need at least 3 lives.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
James the Last wrote:
skisimon wrote:
However, I suspect the debate over the middle one will descend rapidly into a boarders vs skiers slanging match, with irrelevant comments about blind-spots causing most of the issues.
Do you think that having a blind-spot is irrelevant then?
In that particular incident, yes, I do think it is irrelevant. As you will note from the slow motion reply, the boarder is looking directly at the skier as he/she traverses en-route to the initial collision. I'm not saying that the idea of a blind-spot is irrelevant generally (though heads swivel, and I think it can be an overused excuse for not being aware of one's surroundings). There are obviously situations where skiers ski too close behind a boarder who can't see them until the last moment; but in this particular clip, the concept has no bearing on the outcome whatsoever.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Actually the very first clip in the first post of this thread is interesting. The first skier clearly throws a stopping turn and comes to a stop on the piste, and should have done so at the side of the piste. They stopped on the piste. So they were in the wrong from that point of view. However the second skier was clearly looking at the camera and not where he was going which is why he didn't notice the first guy stop on the piste.
So I'm afraid they were both in the wrong for that one.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people stop on the piste - skiers and boarder alike. FFS if you stop you get right to the side and out the way, ie. between the piste poles. 5m inside the piste is still the piste that people hack down at 30-50km//h.
The second clip isn't clear, you can't see what happens before, so you have no idea if that skier has just completed an overtaking of the snowboarder and failed to give sufficient clearance.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
fatbob I know what you mean but I use my experience to try to spot these people and stay out of their way. It's all very well hurtling down a slope at breakneck speed but you have to know what is up ahead and that you'd be able to stop or bale out without causing a collision. What I am trying to say is that it's still up to less experienced or skilled people to learn how to anticipate and avoid a collision. They don't really teach this sort of thing in lessons, maybe they should.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skisimon wrote:
There are obviously situations where skiers ski too close behind a boarder who can't see them until the last moment;
I think you're saying that boarding is an inherently dangerous sport as it creates blind spots?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yes agreed Geetee, and to be fair if you are the following skier/boarder you should always allow for the fact that the person in front might change their pattern of turns or indeed stop. (hence they are both at fault).
Personally I try and ski away from being near anyone and everyone. But still, one of the most commonly broken rules (yes by even me at times, though I am more aware of it now and I really make an effort to come right to the edge of the piste line when stopping) is people stopping on the the piste and it probably accounts for a good proportion of accidents.
There are obviously situations where skiers ski too close behind a boarder who can't see them until the last moment;
I think you're saying that boarding is an inherently dangerous sport as it creates blind spots?
Skiers and boarders heads are the same shape man. Both skiers and boarders have blind spots: behind their heads.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Gazzza wrote:
Yes agreed Geetee, and to be fair if you are the following skier/boarder you should always allow for the fact that the person in front might change their pattern of turns or indeed stop.
That's the problem I guess. Predicting the future is quite hard.
I've been hit from behind before, and had the colliding skier get quite cross. "I didn't know you were going to turn did I!?"
"Yeah? Well you didn't know I *wasn't* going to either, so you're admitting culpability, which is very big of you. Thank you."
There are obviously situations where skiers ski too close behind a boarder who can't see them until the last moment;
I think you're saying that boarding is an inherently dangerous sport as it creates blind spots?
Thank you for thinking on my behalf, life will be so much easier now that I don't have to do it for myself...
In fact, all mountain activities are inherently dangerous. It's what the participants and those around them do which mitigates the dangers to a level which makes them acceptable for a leisurely pastime. Whilst I do think that the blind-spot issue is often overused as an excuse, that is only because I believe that all piste users (boarders and skiers) should be doing their most to ensure that they are aware of their surroundings (i.e. checking in all directions, our heads move, don't they?). Let's take my statement (as quoted above) a little further then... there are obviously situations where any piste user is too close to any other piste user... However, this can obviously be exacerbated by skiing to close behind a boarder - after all, a boarder can/does turn in that direction, I've yet to see a skier perform an emergency reversing manoeuvre up a red run... (For the pedant brigade, I appreciate that this statement does not take into account the old fashioned hockey stop... )
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 9-03-12 17:37; edited 2 times in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
This thread sums up nicely why I prefer to ski off-piste.
After all it is free
After all it is free
paulio wrote:
James the Last wrote:
skisimon wrote:
There are obviously situations where skiers ski too close behind a boarder who can't see them until the last moment;
I think you're saying that boarding is an inherently dangerous sport as it creates blind spots?
Skiers and boarders heads are the same shape man. Both skiers and boarders have blind spots: behind their heads.
Truth... If you ski in directly behind a skier they won't see you either...
Everyone should appreciate you can't see out of the back of your own head.
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"Everyone should appreciate you can't see out of the back of your own head"
I was conducting some research on the use of helmets and whether the users ever looked behind on one particular piste known for its collisions, in comparison with those that were without. 100% of helmet wearers did not look behind or at their periphery during their descent at all i.e. obviously turned their head out of direction of travel, 60% of none helmet wearers looked behind or beyond their shoulder line in the same descent. I only monitored for 30 minutes, but a change to helmet and goggles emphasised to me the total feeling of containment, this I believe to be the cause of many collisions the total lack of spatial awareness of modern skiing, one cannot drive like it on a crowded fast motorway so how can you expect to avoid collisions on a fast crowded piste
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I took a lesson from a French ex-racer who had experienced the same kind of incident as the poor woman in the third video. In his case the person who skied onto the downhill race course was killed, while he ended up in hospital.
Cynic, as a helmet wearer, I almost always turn and look back up the slope before making a wide turn, especially on busier pistes. I had a recent (almost) incident when I didn't turn to look and it reminded me to be more careful.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Fri 9-03-12 20:20; edited 1 time in total
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
).
pedant brigade, I appreciate that this statement does not take into account the old fashioned hockey stop... 