 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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MrTheMike, Welcome to snowHeads.
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| I tried the Metron's in Switzlerland and they were nice, but they have trouble with the shorter carves it seemed |
You gotta be kidding me right? Which Metron did you try? Info re your weight/ability level would help people to give feedback.
Check out http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=22186&highlight=Metron before you decide.
Also http://www.realskiers.com - it's well worth the $20 dollar subscription to addition test info.
I haven't skied the Rossi but have demo'd the Recon quite a few times. I own the Metron b5's in 162cm.
The Metron b5's & the M11 far out perform the Recons on hardpack IMO, especially on short carves (11m radius v 18m).
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 21-09-05 15:07; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Eh, i only treid them for a few days that might be why, it semed like i really had to work them to get the shorter high speed carves in.
Been skiing since i was 3 and i instruct, i weight only around 155, might be why.
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| MrTheMike wrote: |
Eh, i only treid them for a few days that might be why, it semed like i really had to work them to get the shorter high speed carves in.
Been skiing since i was 3 and i instruct, i weight only around 155, might be why. |
If you're 155 & you were on the b5's then I think "really hard to work them" would be the understatement of the year  You'd certainly need to be on the M11's & then maybe in the 152's or the M10 in something longer.
As I said I haven't tried the Rossi's but the Realskiers write up is very good. I found the Recon very damp & just a bit uninspiring (but I'm 40lbs heavier) but they have many fans out there who swear by them.
Have you considered the new Nordica Top Fuel range. They seem to be touted as the hot ticket in all mountain skis for this season. The Stockli's also have a devout following, particularly the Stormrider XL & the Laser.
You could try posting your question on Epic as the guys there would be more familiar with the snow conditions you have over there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks for the feedback! Yea i saw the Top Fuel's got really good reviews as well.
<edit>
Whats this Epic you speak of?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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MrTheMike, it is a website very like this, but the majority of posters are from America.
www.epicski.com
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thanks
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Definitely check out the Stockli Stormrider XL, as everyone who uses these seems to absolutely love them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| I tried the Metron's in Switzlerland and they were nice , but they have trouble with the shorter carves it seemed. |
Please don't take this personally but you may find that it is a change in your technique that may have been needed.
One thing that REALLY stuck out about the small turn radius Metron's is that they are the best small turn radius carving skis touted at being an all rounder. Really need to be skied like a slalom ski on hardpack to show their stuff.
Only thing that can cause problems is the state of tune. If the demo skis have had their edges done on a machine and the edges of the petex have been bevelled too can really upset the way the ski behaves, especially on hardpack.
I weigh 140lbs, 5'11". When I skied the B5's in a 162, quick edge changes when working the ski were causing me to get airborne on occasions. Way too much power in the skis for my body weight sadly. Moving on to the M11's in the same size was so much better.
My M11's arrived yesterday so am looking forward to trying them out next week during slalom race training through the gates!
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Thats my cue for the Stormrider...
It should be on your list to try as it can handle ice very well and it is, I think, an all-mountain ski.
Use the search facillty top left of this page to get reviews of the skis that have been mentioned.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rockyrobin,
The bodyweight argument doesn't hold! I loved them, and you know I'm lighter than you!!
MrTheMike,
I have ordered the Z9s, not tested them but based my decision on a review by a friend who skied them last season. He is a PSIA full cert. He was comparing them to my current ski which is the Crossmax 10. Here's what he said:
"Z9 - I think the dimensions are 126-74-115, radius is about 13 at 170cms. It's constructed in a part sidewall / part cap. Sidewalls are underfoot, with the caps at each end. This makes the edge grip under foot fantastic. Compared with your crossmax's they are much wider underfoot - I believe your crossmaxes were the 1st generation ones. The difference that will make is that it won't be so fast on a race course. Off piste, they have a lot of power, especially because of its wide shovel, and good floatation because of the waist width. Bumps, might be a bit harder, just because of the width, but I didn't try them in the bumps. The flex pattern is very progressive, which makes for a very smooth ride. CARVING on the these things was amazing, absolutely rock solid - at high speeds, the skis were glued to the ground. I was training on steep blue/black runs, and these skis were awesome. They are fairly heavy skis, but I've always found weight to be an asset, it tends to make the skis more stable - all race stock skis are very heavy, and most race skis available to the public and most high end skis are pretty heavy."
"I never tried the 1st generation of crossmax, because I always though that they were too forgiving. I do know that they were easy to use in the bumps, because of that. My recent experience skiing and way of skiing definitely favours a ski like the z9 - at the moment I'm pretty aggressive, and often get too far forward, which results in a slight a-frame (only very slight)."
(Easiski and Rustyguy - more ammo for your "discussion"!!!)
"I only actually tried them on piste, so all my off piste descriptions are what I think the ski would be like. My trainer used them off piste and liked them a lot - she was a very technical skier. All my other skis have been fairly stiff, very stiff torsionally, lots of pop, and recently a lot of shape - 11m-14m radii. The z9 is definitely a ski that works for me. A lot of the trainers in Vail liked them and have bought them."
I then spoke with the trainer that my friend mentioned and she said this:
"I have a Z9 in 162 cm and adore it as your friend probably told you. He raced NASTAR on them and enjoyed them free skiing as well. They are a lot of ski, --- quite beefy, and I should probably ski them in 154 cm but those were not available at the time and the 162's work great. I am 5'9" and 132 pounds but I'm over 50-years-old.
You cannot be laid back on the 162's but you can go FAST. You chose the length but since you had Salomons on 170 cm you might prefer the 162's especially if you're skiing the groomers a lot."
Hope this helps!!
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beanie1, Great review from your friend - I thought I was reading a review about my b5's they sound so similar
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rockyrobin,
Good point, if the ski is too rigid but has a big side-cut you could do an awful lot just on the side-cut alone without having to really flex it...!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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JT, That probably explains why I like skiing on 11m radius skis so much. When I try my B2's on hardpack I feel so inadequate and want to get straight back onto my tighter turning skis. Hopefully my technique/confidence will grow with time so I can really flex my skis instead of flattering myself on the sidecut.
I watched a guy who works at XScape the other day doing a big carve opposite me going up the lift, and he was definately booting out and his skis were getting really bent. Very impressive to watch 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar.org.uk, LOL..!!
rockyrobin,
I can imagine some of the stiff skis need a lot of input to flex and therefore get the best out of. I can't imagine the B2 being one tho'.
Speed would generally be the key here
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| rockyrobin wrote: |
| JT, That probably explains why I like skiing on 11m radius skis so much. When I try my B2's on hardpack I feel so inadequate and want to get straight back onto my tighter turning skis. Hopefully my technique/confidence will grow with time so I can really flex my skis instead of flattering myself on the sidecut. |
If you keep going on Monday nights, the aim will be to get you to turn just using the sidecut of the ski, even for
short radius turns.
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spyderjon, I'm sure that technique is very important, but although Xscape manages to defeat UK weather it can't defeat the laws of physics
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
it can't defeat the laws of physics
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Should this read "ye canna change the laws of physics...............Jim"
PS what is booting out?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Frosty the Snowman, when you have so much lower leg angulation that the side of your boot scrapes on the snow, interfering with the contact between ski edge and snow. It's never happened to me...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I am a bit confused by these references to riding the sidecut without flexing the ski. I would have thought that if you don't flex the ski you don't turn, end of story. In fact this is sometimes illustrated when I get too much weight on my inside ski and the outside one just starts to go straight
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A turn something like this would show boot out:
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You know it makes sense.
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| Arno wrote: |
I am a bit confused by these references to riding the sidecut without flexing the ski.
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Ditto! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rockyrobin,
Not taken it the wrong way, was only joking, sorry! 
Maybe a lighter skier won't flex them as much as a heavier ski, but a lighter ski probably doesn't need to flex them as much as a heavier skier in order to get the same "pop". Not a physicist, so I may be way off course in my understanding here! I just based my judgement on how they felt to me, and I liked them. Of course, it is impossible to replicate how they feel to someone else.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rockyrobin wrote: |
| I was just curious whether lighter people can really live with the B5 and flex it to get the best out of the ski. |
It doesn't take that much force to push a ski into a reverse camber, even a real stiff ski. I've got a pair of race department GS skis sitting in my study at the moment (stiffer and sturdier than my B5s) and they can easily be pushed into a reverse camber using just one hand. I'm not sure that any adult skier's (light) weight would mean that they can't ski any particular type of ski.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Arno, slikedges, When a carver ski is put on edge with minimal pressure applied, the ski will 'self steer' in an arc closely following the sidecut radius. When greater pressure is applied, ie the ski is flexed into negative camber, then the sidecut radius is reduced & the ski will turn tighter as the self steering effect has been increased. The amount of pressure/flex required to do this is determined by the skis longitudinal & torsional flex.
In ye old days of straight skis the racers still managed to get their skis to carve because they flexed them in to negative camber forming an arc for the ski to follow, even though it didn't have any sidecut.
What Rockrobin is suggesting is that as he & beanie1 are lightweights (RR is 140lbs & beanie1's lighter than that  ) that when they were riding my stiff b5's that it could be possible for them to carve them by just tipping them on edge & riding the sidecut without the ski being flexed that much at all.
Observers could easily think watching good skiers like them making great turns that the ski flex was ideally suited to them whereas in fact the ski is too stiff for them for all day all round skiing. That's not to say they couldn't flex them, as the ability to do so is as more about technique than weight, but the amount of effort required would make it just too hard work.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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spyderjon,
Depends how fit you are!! I used to ski all day all conditions on GS skis and never found them too much hard work.
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rob@rar.org.uk, You're right in that when holding a ski vertically it doesn't take much pressure applied to the bindings to push it into negative camber, maybe 20-30lbs depending on the skis stiffness. As you say race skis can easily be longitudinally flexed that way.
If that's the case, then why are race skis too stiff for many people? The answer is that they usually also have high torsional flex which, when combined with the longitudinal flex, determines how agressively the ski's tail & tip grip when edged. This combination in a race ski is often too much for many people to overcome by either technique or weight.
Put the tail of one of your GS skis between your feet & try twisting the tip of the ski whilst at the same time deflecting the middle. My b5's won't move much doing this but Deb's girlie K2's are noticably softer.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 23-09-05 13:43; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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spyderjon, I understand that different skis are stiffer, both torsionally and longitudinally. All I'm saying is that no adult is going to be too light to ski a particular ski because they can't make it flex longitudinally. Some skiers might not like the ski's other characteristics, but that is not to say that their lack of weight makes that ski entirely unsuitable for them because of an inability to make it flex.
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spyderjon, Thanks, I understand now. It was just the terminology. For a ski's sidecut to come into play, it has to deform and lose its natural camber. When simply lightly pressured on edge it mainly twists but also longitudinally flexes a little, so only in a slight reverse camber. The combination makes it turn pretty much according to its sidecut radius. Hence riding the sidecut. With more pressure at any angle the longitudinal flex has the greater effect than the torsional flex and the turn radius is shortened accordingly. Sound about right?
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 23-09-05 14:25; edited 1 time in total
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spyderjon, assuming no rotational movement, i don't think a ski will turn unless it is in a negative camber, even if it is slight
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar.org.uk, Agreed.
slikedges, Agreed. You've read Ron LeMaster as well then
Arno, I thought it would turn so long, as slikedges stated above, as it's natural camber was lost/flattened. Didn't think it had to actually be in negative camber to turn though. For example, when I'm going up the poma at Xscape in a wide stance I can, whilst supported on one leg crank the other ski right over on to it's edge & watch it curve/carve around. The ski is certainly not in negative camber when it does this.
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spyderjon, we may be in danger of staring up our own backsides here... but if your ski has zero camber and you tip in onto an edge, you would just have the widest bits at the tip and the tail in contact with the snow and your ski would just go straight on. you need to bend the ski into negative camber in order for all of the edge to be in contact and for a turn to happen. i think this is the case even allowing for the fact that skis will dig into snow so the narrow bit of a ski with no camber won't necessarily be carving through fresh air
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FAQ
Have I said the wrong thing? I think you may have taken my comment the wrong way. 
