 Poster: A snowHead
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Out of bounds? Lucky.... Stupid parents too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Easy to say stupid in hindsight. I think those kids were lucky to have parents who let them enjoy freedom, including freedom to find out how dangerous the world can be. The kids will have learnt a painful lesson, but I hope their parents don't put too many future restrictions on them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Debatable. A painful lesson can equate to dead children. Where you draw the line is a moot point, but letting a 9, even an 11 year old wander off-limits on their own shows stupidity in my book. Sure there are kids who you can trust to ski/board on their own. My own are 8 and 11. They ski unaccompanied at times. But never - without a trainer present - would they dream of venturing off-piste, despite the fact they ski several months each year and are relatively expert compared to most. Their trainer would 'do his nut'.
What some people call restrictions I call common sense..... 
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Tend to agree wit PG. At 9 and 11.. they have a long time later in life to be dumb and irresposible... well it's gonna happen.. I mena they are Boarders... right ? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Oisin Osh Kelly, who am I to disagree with an expert boarder like yourself? 
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Very lucky parents and kids, children are the responsibility of their parents at least until they know the risks, these ones obviosly did not and nearly paid the price, 9 and 11 whilst ok possibly for being on their own on piste should never have gone off piste, the fact that they did not know that means these two should not have been left to do their own thing full stop.
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| PG wrote: |
| Oisin Osh Kelly, who am I to disagree with an expert boarder like yourself? |
I thank you for the expert tag... but really I should try and post the video clips from my last hol... I thought of entitling it "Stacking Day" or maybe "Osh Can't Jump"... or maybe even "Who Put That Tree There"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Pete Horn wrote: |
| Easy to say stupid in hindsight. I think those kids were lucky to have parents who let them enjoy freedom, including freedom to find out how dangerous the world can be. The kids will have learnt a painful lesson, but I hope their parents don't put too many future restrictions on them. |
I agree with you, provided of course the parents didn't encourage them to go off piste.
Too many people forget when they become adults just how many stupid, life endangering things they did when they were kids. It's a part of growing up, making mistakes and learning from them. Too many parents these days want to wrap there children in cotton wool, which can result in even bigger problems (a sedantry lifestyle leading to obesity being the most obvious example).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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A little strong PG but nicely put !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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now now folks... this is all far too higbrow and serious..... May I remind you we are snowboarders here ... snowboarding and resposibility do not go together... or so a lot of skiers seem to think
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If my kids got hurt or even worse killed because I was stupid enough to let them do something irresponsible I don't think I could live with it.
There are too many examples of kids drowning and getting hurt for no reason other than they were allowed to do what they wanted with no real parental supervision.
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You know it makes sense.
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Oisin Osh Kelly, Oops, forgot where I was posting, got a bit carried away there! Still.... all the same ... 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm not sure I'd let my teens go off piste unaccompanied, but they'd probably do it anyway . I'd be more confident about it in a resort they know well, but although they have skied for 9 years they haven't had much off-piste experience.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think we have all made a number of assumptions here.
| The article wrote: |
| The girls, ages 9 and 11, from Suisun City, were reported missing earlier Thursday when they failed to meet their parents at a prearranged location at Northstar Ski Resort. |
No suggestion the parents allowed the kids to go off-piste. Many of us for some reason or other will have asked kids to meet us at a well known place on occasions: "I don't want a coffee, can't Gemma and I do one more run?", and off they go. But kids can get distracted: maybe they saw an interesting animal, or thought they had found a short-cut. It happens.
We can't molly-coddle them all the time. We try to get the balance right. Sometimes we get it wrong. I'm not sure these parents deserve to be condemned so readily.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Fair enough, there's a tiny area of doubt. We don't have all the facts. But if they were visitors to a resort, at best the parents were extremely foolish, at worst.....
As I see it, what happened speaks for itself!
It reminds me of the attitude of a UK race club up on an Austrian glacier, one trip I was along on. Although they were there for the race camp and races themselves, there was more of a 'holiday' atmosphere than I was used to actually living in the mountains. On the last day it was announced that although there were no official pistes down from the glacier, the UK club would try out an off-piste run, taking all the children (aged 8 upwards) along. I asked if anyone had tried out the run. The answer was no. Were they taking a guide? No. I checked with a local - it was a black run equivalent, very narrow in places with a sheer drop of several hundred feet on one side, numerous crevasses.
Some of the younger kids were of particularly average skill. I couldn't believe that they would actually consider this, and objected - the only parent to do so. I was, of course, the killjoy, but reluctantly they decided not to do the run.
For my own peace of mind I asked a local Austrian coach, who told me that he wouldn't dream of taking such an inexperienced group down, and this was typical of the 'tourist' mentality - even a race team in the case - simply not taking the dangers seriously, perhaps not fully understanding them.
Sure, accidents happen. Especially if you let them. In the mountains, with young kids, you've got to err heavily on the safe side.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Jonpim, I agree. Northstar is not exactly Alta or Jackson Hole, either. It's a pretty small, family-friendly place. Of course, we Americans are raising a lot of ignorant, spoiled children these days, so YMMV... 
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ssh, Well, I'm glad you said it!!! But as for the first part, you do surprise me. A 9 yr old? Does the size of the place make it immune from avalanche or other risks?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PG, oh, you don't know the half of it! I actually preach on that stuff. But, that's another forum...
As for Northstar, yes, it really is pretty immune to typical mountain risks. Of course, it's still a mountain, so you could fall in a treehole or something, but it's pretty gentle, tree-covered, doesn't get a ton of snow (especially when compared to the rest of Tahoe), etc. The slope of the mountain is pretty gentle all-around. While they claim 25% black terrain, it's all "on-piste" and, in my opinion, not really worthy of black. There is no "experts only" terrain there.
When we lived in San Jose, Northstar was the place to take beginners and typical one-day-a-year skiers.
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I think PG came up with the answer, tourists do not in General realise the risks of a snowcovered mountain which is why they act the way they do, once again we are back to my frequently raised point about the changing requirments of ski or snowboard teachers having gone from friendly ski hosts passing on their extensive knowledge for a reasonable fee, to financilay interested companies who's sole aim is to get as many satisfied customers skiing the red runs as fast as possible
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sssh : Ok.... "take" being the operative word. And the kids either were or weren't on recognised runs. With well over 400 acres of advanced or backcountry terrain, I would have thought that there was plenty of opportunities for inexperienced, unaccompanied kids to do themselves some serious damage. From a look at the site it looks pretty 'standard' to me. Slides happen, even among trees.
And there's me just having read a report on there being no such thing as a mountain 'immune', virtually or otherwise, to typical risks!
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| Quote: |
| The inaugural Tahoe Winter Blue Adventure Race was scheduled to take place Feb. 28 at Northstar, but, ironically, there was too much snow, conditions were deemed unsafe, and the event was rescheduled for December. |
from a report on a multi-event meet that was recently cancelled at Northstar......
This report on the kids 'mishap' did mention the deep snow in the out of bounds area where the children were eventually found, after a two hour search.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PG, Tahoe does get dumps, so I don't doubt it. But, in comparison to most Western US ski areas, Northstar is pretty tame.
However, it is still a mountain, with all of the inherent risks.
I would not let my kids out of my sight on a ski mountain. But, I started skiing at age 10 all alone on a little hill in northern Michigan. 
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D G Orf, do you really want to get me started on the "changing requirements of ski or snowboard teachers"?! I spent part of this season as a parttime instructor at our local ski resort. Boy, do I have stories!
What would you do for $65 (US) per day of work? Of course, typically, the resort revenue for that was about $325 or so...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hey ssh I didn't blame the instructors as they don't set the course, it's down to the schools and how they've changed over the years. But buy all means tell us the stories
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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D G Orf, I know you don't. We had a long thread on EpicSki about this. I just can't believe the profit margin for a lesson in the US...
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I wouldn't be surprised if it's any different in the rest of the world, wengen ski school charges about £23 for one 3 hour group lesson per person a maximum of 12 to a group so thats about £250 for a mornings skiing to the ski school I would guess that the instructor sees no more than 30 percent of that if indeed it's even as much as that probably gets closer to £40 and maybe if he's lucky and there are plenty of skiers wanting private lessons the same again in the afternoon, mind you it's still more than $65 a day
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You know it makes sense.
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D G Orf, I've been told that instructors in Europe can actually live on ski teaching. Not possible in the US. My hourly consulting fees are higher than my full-day teaching salary!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ssh, In France instructors do pretty well on their private lessons/group lessons. They get to keep a larger chunk of the figure, but I don't know exactly how much. It never seemed appropriate to ask, even those who are friends!
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Poster: A snowHead
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ssh, Hope my approach wasn't too 'sharp'! But I do worry about anything that could be construed as advice, or even just agreement, with the 'kids can take care of themselves' attitude, especially very young kids in a mountain environment. I know personally one parent who's lived to regret that (not a death, but an nasty injury that's going to affect her child for the rest of her life...)
On the whole most people don't have your mountain savvy, especially on a forum mostly peopled by Brits who mainly don't get more than a couple of weeks on the snow each year. Just seems that the 'better safe than sorry' maxim is more than appropriate in this case....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Unfortunately PG for some strange reason people on holiday suddenly decide that their children are perfectly safe and can do what they want, when you look at how protective of their children they are in the UK you do have to ask if they really know what they're doing when it comes to their childs safety on holiday 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Think for all of us, no matter how safety concious we think we are, we all make mistakes. Perhaps this was just one of those things that happens. It shouldn't have.. but it did. Wise after the event and benefit of hindsight seems to apply here. Guess just be thnkful that they were found and are safe.
Don't think the parents would repeat the mistake twice. Kids will be Kids and will often do the opposite of what they were told. You can't keep your eye on them 24/7. They will have learned from this as will have the parents.
Not that I know anything about kids... I don't have none... they don't give snowboarders with bad grammer and spelling licenses for child rearing.
Gosh.... this kind of too heavy dude.. comin from me... now if you want to talk about irresponsible..... bloody snowbladers 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PG, you are absolutely right about the "better safe than sorry" approach.
I am appalled by most of what passes for parenting in the US, however, so nothing surprises me any more.
Lots of parents seem to want to be their kids' friends. I want to be my kids' father whether they always like me or not--it's my job to help them grow up responsibly.
Oops  I'll stop, now. I warned you that I preach about this!
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D G Orf, right. I mean, after all, what could possibly go wrong on holiday? I mean, what could happen at a beach...? Or a ski area...? Or... 
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Nuf said
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ssh,
| Quote: |
| Lots of parents seem to want to be their kids' friends |
How true. And as a result we're in the process of creating a whole generation that has always had everything it wants, when it wants. What it's going to be like when they're running things? (not long now - it's already started.) But don't get me going on this either!
The French are a decade or two behind the Anglo-American approach... but they're getting there. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PG, what are you doing up at 0450 in the morning?
Whoops: its 05.50 where you are (isn't it?). Even so you should be snug in bed with Mrs Ise or getting her a cup of tea, not sat in front of your computer.
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Kids up as usual at the crack of, Mrs Ise nowhere in sight though. That cuppa would have been a bit cold but the time I'd driven to Switzerland as well. (Honest, ise).... (just checked, I'm in luck, ise may not have visited this thread yet... phew.)
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FAQ
