 Poster: A snowHead
|
I'm mad keen to increase the amount and frequency of touring that I do and now have in-laws in Chamonix. (He is a v. keen alpinist) which should provide the opportunity and motivation. So, as I need to gratuitously buy some kit to leave in their cellar for sneaky weekends I'm thinking that maybe the Garmont Adrenalin or Scarpa Tornado might function well enough on piste and well enough for touring. The touring motivation being the descent afterwards rather than racing or travelling if you see what I mean.
Vital stats: height 165cm, weight 63kgs, "good/competent recreational" skier on and off piste, typically I like stiff boots (Tecnica TNT/Explosion/Icons were last 3 pairs) and demanding skis.
I guess the core question really is whether these boots will be stiff enough for on piste use. I am planning to do 50:50 piste/touring. Well. that's the plan at least...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
David Murdoch, I bought some Denali XTs with the intention of using them for piste and off-piste, touring etc. I am sure the new models are stiffer, but I doubt they will be anywhere near the boots you mentioned above. I got myself a pair of Atomic top-end freeride boots - just one level down from race boot stiffness. You can skin in these for a bit without too much discomfort - you just need to undo all the buckles - and walking for a bit isn't sooo bad.
It down to personal preference though - phil ingle's website was mentioned somewhere else. If you look closely, he does all his stuff with alpine boots, fat skis and alpine bindings. He uses trekker touring adapters for the skinning. OTOH you see people doing seriously gnarly descents on lightweight touring gear.
Now I only use the XTs for days when I there will be a significant amount of uphill - more than 1.5 hours of skinning.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
I may have the same quandry so will be interested to see where this threads goes. I like a comfortable boot but need to replace my X waves. I favour staying alpine unless this thread says otherwise
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
The other thing to mention is that you can modify scarpa boots by fitting a Raichle tongue in place of the normal one, and/or adding a booster strap. Apparently that beefs them up a bit
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Bought a pair of Garmont Adrenalin's in April. Not really used them enough on piste to be able to give a final conclusion versus my alpine boots. I think it's fair to say that you aren't going to get race boot stiffnes with touring boot lightness. I will say that for it's weight the Adrenaline is stiff (I believe it's the stiffest touring boot out there at the moment).
You can get a touring sole put on an alpine boot (although this may have implications on binding performance / warranty). If you are doing mainly one day tours then this seems to be the route most use.
Many people just use alpine boots (as I used to). One day on a rocky/grass/shallow snow traverse the snow balled up under the alpine boots and it was like walking with blocks of ice strapped to my feet. The snowboarders I was with had no problems (better sole) I slid for around 50 metres. It wasn't easy to self arrest as the skis on my back prevented me from flipping over onto my belly (almost needed to rotate the underpants twice on the same day  ). This was the day I decided to get something with a proper sole for touring.
Alpine boots with a touring sole give better downhill performance but are heavier and you may have problems trying to rent alpine skis (warranty issues with bindings). If you always use your own skis / bindings this shouldn't be a problem. If you are fit (compared to the others in the group) then the heavy boot isn't normally a problem, but it's no good having the stiffest boots if the weight of them has knackered you out on the way up. If you do multiday tours with Alpine boots and it's cold in the morning (e.g. in a tent/unheated hut) then it may not be possible to get your Alpine boots on. Generally touring boots are designed to overcome this problem.
Stiff touring boots give you the advantage that you can use one boot for everything. When you go on holiday do you want to take two pairs of boots? They are like a good all- round ski (although not being the stiffest or lightest). Touring boots also tend to be warmer than alpine boots and cold feet affects performance (thermal moudable inners are more expensive but worth it IMHO).
You can rent touring boots, it's probably best to demo before you buy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
nice, but not $700 nice
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arno, I am expecting to compromise, although it does occur to me that it shouldn't be too hard to engineer boots that are stiff when locked up but can be "unlocked" for climbing. Anyway, fair point re Mr Ingles exploits. I think it's trying on time.
I do expect admiring glances from hot chalet bunnies as I clearly will appear as a real "mountain man".
I'm hoping we'll be going further afield than 1.5 hours so I agree I think that we'll be into "proper" AT space.
DB, I don't expect "race" boot performance, but I do expect a reasonable degree of support. Best get my feet into a pair. Your point re the soles are well received as I hadn't really thought about that. I'm not too worried about carrying multiple boots as these ones will live in Chamonix for use there and in Monterosa but I need to make a decision as touring boots are currently the mutual Xmas pressy list for me and the chick.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David Murdoch, my experience of chalet bunnies has been of bemusement rather than awe when I say that I have walked a bit for my turns 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Masque,
700 US dollars is too much but boots and skis are generally more expensive in the states, picked mine up for less than half that.
http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=1_48_242&products_id=214
The picture you posted is of the Garmont Mega Ride G-Fit Alpine. The Garmont Adrenaline has the interchangable sole, the other Garmonts don't.
David Murdoch,
Forgot to mention before that stiffer alpine boots don't normally have a walk mode. I find the walk mode useful when walking over rocks etc. Sometimes with alpine boots they are either too tight (Robocob type walking) or lose with occasional shin bang while walking instead of the flex you get from a touring boot.
The Garmonts are a narrow fit (although not as narrow as say some of the Lange boots) Scarpa tend to make a more typical width (wider than the Garmonts). The Garmonts fit my feet well but the Scarpa's or other touring boots may fit your feet better. Touring boot fit is at least as important as Alpine boot fit (I've seen the blisters  )
If you are doing long hikes you might wish to give up a little downhill performance for all the benefits touring boots offer. I've heard of people using the Adrenaline as their only boot while others have sold their touring boots on ebay because the downhill performance wasn't there. At the end of the day it's what suits you best i.e. demo.
PS I doubt you will be able to hire the Adrenalines or Tornados because they are top models that don't tend to be in rent shops inventory. There may however be a lower model on offer from the same supplier with the same/very similar boot shape / last.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Just to add a further something into the mix, by far the most comfortable touring boot I have worn is the Lowa Struktura. Difficult (if not impossible) to find in the UK, but Snell and the rest in Chamonix used to stock them. Downhill performance isn't up there with the Denalis but if you want something to skin and walk in all day, I'd strongly recommend them.
Picking up on DB's point on sticking a vibram sole on an alpine boot, there is some debate as to how good for the boot this is. You usually need to grind the sole of the boot down quite considerably before sticking the new sole on so the strength of the boot is likely to be decreased significantly by this
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
I believe a few boot manufacturers make alpine boots with touring soles. Heard that Strolz and Dale boots do this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
David Murdoch, given your weight, i think that you could find the touring boots OK. You'd have more trouble if you weighted 85 kg. I have read on TGR (and also heard it from a salesman) that the Dalbello CRX (i think now they call them ZX) are good downhill boots with a nice walk system ( as opposed to crappy boots with sqeaky walk modes) that make a nice compromise. Only caveat, you should add vibram soles, there are instructions on TGR
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
sugardaddy, I will admit that I have a tendency towards stiff alpine boots - I guess I need to determine whether the soft AT boots will be too soft for on piste use. I do like the look of the Dalbello Zx Supersport though. Nice colour too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
ski, just blow my budget then why don't you?
Masque, Too soft I think...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
David Murdoch, I think you'll be pushing it to get one pair of boots to cover both tasks. On our annual trip to La Grave, everyone uses non-touring boots....Like you I enjoy stiff boots (in my case Lange), and I wouldn't be without them on a big day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
David Murdoch, There's got to be a trade-off somewhere, I suppose it must depend on why you're walking. If you're touring to enjoy the distance and scenery, you're going to need something that will be a fully functioning walking /climbing boot first and a ski boot second. If you're climbing to get to the gnarliest part of the hill then you're going to need the boot to be more ski orientated. Unless you're willing to change boots at the top of the hill.
I did see that Telemark-Pyrenees has the Garmonts above in the AT boot clearout section for 235 Euro.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
sugardaddy, David Murdoch,
Maybe they have changed it but the red tranlucent Supersport doesn't have a walk mode according to this link
http://www.gallbauer.com/dalbello_skischuh_02.htm although the Dalbello ZS PULSAR Custom http://www.gallbauer.com/dalbello_skischuh_04.htm does.
Here's the TGR link on the Scarpa Tornado which they are sceptical about too ...
http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27652&highlight=tornado
I read the Garmont Adrenaline thread on TGR before buying my Adrenalins and bought them on the provision that I could return them if they didn't work for me. The canting settings were all messed up at first but I adjusted them and they worked well on the piste back in May (albeit for only one day - need to test them more). I suspect the people at TGR are more for single day trips as opposed to multi-day tours.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
reading the TGR treads does leave me with the impression that they want perfection in everything for every condition from one boot and are willing to waste their lives looking for it. It's a bit like epic in the sense that you rarely get the feeling that anyone is actually happy with their kit, always looking for the next big thing. I suppose it's a cultural thing but I get slightly depressed when I read it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think a trip to Footworks might be in order...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
I had all these discussion this summer when buying new skis. Getting further and further away from piste each season, with the two extreme variations being total alpine set up and total touring set up. Two pairs of boots seems out of the question for most, since transport becomes impractical, so the question becomes do you want alpine performance from your boot or comfort when going up.
To be honest, the most important part for me is going down, that's when I want peak performance. Consequently I'll have touring set up with fritschi freerides but still use my TNT's, since I want the stiffness when it matters.
that said, lots of people skis really gnarly stuff with full alpine gear. I'm more worried about the freeride bindings clipping out of downhill.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I think my alpine shells will be replaced this year and I was seriously considering the Garmonts or the Scarpas. A good friend of mine skis on the Garmonts and loves them. I do as much skining as possible, in the past skining in my alpines has never been an issue but I'm fed up of hiking in them so a cross over boot should make that better.
Stiff boots do feel great when really hucking, but I've been going for softer flex patterns over the last few pairs. Carving really requires a flexible boot (see Mr Smiths 'dynamic ankle flex' lectures ). So no longer concerned about 'performance' loss.
Unless I was off on some super hardcore mountaineering I would never go for dedicated touring skis and bindings, I just don't have enough faith in them for the way I ski.
My only complaint is the DIN of the Freeride bindings only goes to 12... on big days I like a little more twist in the springs
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
flicksta, that's exactly the question. Much talk about touring boots getting more like alpine, but not convinced there yet. Will have to have a look at them though.
parlor, not at all convinced that carviing "requires" flexibility - my received (mis?-)understanding was that at low performance levels carvers allowed for a softer shell hence potentially greater comfort. I sure don't find that I need additional flexibility and am thinking (if I don't get tourers) of going back up the rigidity scale.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Interesting to see the different points of view. David Murdoch is light (63kg) and likes stiff boots yet I suspect Parlour is heavier (wanting more than a 12 din on his bindings) but prefers a softer boot.
Watched one of Mr Smiths DVD's and his flexing of ankles makes a lot of sense. As I understood it he says If you can't flex the ankle enough because the boot is too stiff then the over compensation elsewhere (knees and upper body) will give you a bad body position, either in the backseat or a forward crouched upper body.
The Adrenaline seems to be a love it or hate it boot. Suspect this is mainly down to foot shape, I'm guessing that people with lower volume feet are the ones who favour the Adrenaline. I'd be surprized if the stiffness of the Adrenaline wasn't enough for a skier of DM's proportions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I normally ski with my bindings set to 14. I weigh 12 stone, I just like being held in...
In the same way that we don't "require" parabolic skis for carving, softer flexing boots are not "required" for carving, my point, shaped skis help us carve, so modern boots can be much softer than previous boots for modern carving techniques. I for one ski on skis with much less side cut and appreciate good ankle movement.
There are loads of skiers that are skiing on softer flexing boots, and not just the park sprogs. Skiing techniques combined with biomechanical understanding (neither of which I have ) places more emphasis on allowing large amounts of ankle flex, this is not achievable with stiff boots.
Hey, it's all new. But it does ruin my aspirations for owning a pair of factory team race boots. Still, maybe ski boots will become more comfortable, we might even get a few of those skier-turned-snowboarder types back form the dark side... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
My emphasis is on a comfort boot that will enable short hikes and scrambles and wouldn't be too much to bend in steep situations.
I agree that some boots might be too much for me to flex and so put me in the back seat.
parlor,
All of my dark siders have returned..!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
parlor, fair enough! I just like a reasonably (very) stiff boot. My Icon "Comp"s are softer than my old TNTs which I have now found I prefer so If I had more money than sense I think a pair of Diablo 130s would be on the Xmas shopping list.
DB, "light"? Thank you. I am dieting. You could have added "svelte"! I don't know why but I seem to be able to (and like) flexing stiff boots and definitely don't like softer ones. Anyway the only thing to do is have a Footworks visit and try them on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Re: softer boots. On Warren's course last autumn a load of us were encouraged to attack our boots with hacksaws. I think ise and I were a little sceptical about the wisdom of this but we made some modifications to our boots (although I think ise may have bought some new ones since!).
I'm pretty sure that I'll be buying softer ones next time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
As I said before, I've only had a day piste skiing on my new touring boots but did notice that slow speed skiing felt much easier. The boot also seemed to absorb the terrain better and I didn't get the same shin knock-back that my alpine boots sometimes give me. Because of the conditions (a bit foggy) I didn't crank up the speed so as yet don't know how the touring boots compare to the alpines boots under these conditions.
David Murdoch,
Read that people who like stiff boots tend to put a lot of forward pressure on the boot tongue. Maybe this is something that has come from older ski techniques. This works well on piste but can make the skier prone to off-piste nosedives as the tips sink in. David Murdoch Just out of interest is any of this applicable to you?
It looks like for some a softer touring boot may be better than their stiff alpine boots in almost all conditions. In a shop the boots are warmer and flex differently, IMHO on snow testing is best = resort purchase at beginning of holiday. I always take my other boots with me when trying boots on in the shop so at least I have some sort of a reference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
DB,
| Quote: |
is any of this applicable to you
|
Svelte? Small but perfectly formed? Apparently so, at least that's what the girlie says...
Hanging out the front of my boots and nose-diving off piste? No!  I am perfectly well balanced fore and aft thank you. I just like a very supportive and close fit when getting a bit of a wiggle on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
All, I got some Denali TTs last season and have now skied about 3 weeks on them, mostly off-piste but a bit on- as well. They are definitely softer than my alpine boots (Salomon Performa 9 Carves), but do pretty much all I want of them in all conditions (although I've not tried racing in them). I guess the majority of you guys ski harder than I do (you're certainly more experienced), but I wouldn't discount them out of hand for on-piste work. Surely if the boots are stiff enough to pop out of the bindings when required they're stiff enough to ski in? I'm about 90-95 kg, 181cm and ski on DIN of about 8-8.5 - so I would have thought them fine for a 63kg lightweight . You just have to caress the hill a little more rather than force it into submission. I've not done anything seriously gnarly in them, but I actually preferred the added flexibility on the little bits I have done. The only time I noticed the softness being a problem was when I forgot to switch them back into downhill mode after an uphill session  .
The one cristicism I would have of them is that the bolt head for the toe end buckle sticks a little proud of the inside of the shell, and is noticeably hard against the outside of your toe-knuckles - a definite issue for me as I have very wide feet (F/G shoe fitting). This wasn't an issue in the shop but I only started noticing it after about 3 days skiing on them. I had the shells blown out a bit, but I've not got it resolved yet.
I didn't try the Adrenalines, and couldn't even get my feet into a pair of Scarpa Lasers, as they were much narrower than the Denalis - but in any event they are supposed to be even less geared towards on-piste, being softer.
David Murdoch, If you're going for a one size-fits-all solution what skis/bindings do you have? I'm assuming you're having Fritschi Freeride bindings - as they are probably the only bindings there with the strength to put-up with serious on-piste bashing - but are they up to having the stresses you'd give them with a boot approaching race stiffness? If not, and you need a pair of skis with regular alpine bindings, would an all-round boot (with Vibram sole) actually fit in them, given the increased sole depth? If not, you're back to a full two-setup solution in any case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
The other thing to think about is not just stiffness of the shell, it's the general fit of touring boots. Although the stiffer ones are probably built with less uphill comfort in mind, they are still made to be reasonably comfortable when skinning, scrambling around on rocks and walking on mountain tracks. The liners, I have found, are much thicker and softer than my alpine boots and they're generally a bit roomier. They don't keep me forward in the same way as my downhill boots (I am aware that I shouldn't be relying on my boots for this tho ). This is based on a my own Denali XTs and having hired a couple of other pairs before I got them. The Denalis definitely feel like wearing a pair of wellies after my alpine boots but they are good enough for true touring type skiing - ie quite conservative. They are not too bad on piste, but if I'm really trying to carve or whatever, I need to exaggerate my technique a bit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
GrahamN, haven't got as far as thinking about bindings, far less skis. The intention is that these would be boot pair #3 and destined to live in Chamonix for use there and Monte Rosa & nearby. Alpine boots commuting out from London for longer trips to other places where higher likelihood of on-pistery or lift served off-pisteness. So probably hire touring skis, etc. in the meantime.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arno, that's insteresting, as my Denalis are actually a more snug fit than my Salomons, but that probably says more about the problems I had getting a downhill boot wide enough to fit - they are certainly a size or two longer than my Denalis and there is more room at the front of the toes (as the guys at Footworks in Chamonix were worried about pushing the sides out any further on a smaller boot). The Denali liners actually fit my foot like a glove, but are arguably a half-size too small. They're reasonably comfortable for skinning and hiking around on the hill (not a blister yet), but I can certainly imagine a more comfortable liner to wander about in at the end of the day. I can't remember the exact size difference, but FWIW the sole length on the Salomons at 326mm is 16mm longer than on the Denalis! Good job I got the right biding size!
David Murdoch, I would certainly then go with something with a proper Vibram sole and not worry too much about stiffness. Carry your alpine boots out to Cham anyway (as hand luggage ), and for the days when the touring element is limited use your alpine boot and crank down the touring bindings to fit the lower sole. That's what I'm doing with mine (one pair of skis, select boots according to expected usage).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
GrahamN, I'm trying to avoid carrying boots at all!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
