 Poster: A snowHead
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| The Paradiski area has really taken the idea of 'piste natures' to heart. There are now ten of these areas just on the Les Arcs side and about another 4 over in La Plagne... A piste nature is an avalanche protected area that is un-pisted, but marked as a trail. They only open these areas when the resort security considers them to be safe. You do not need to take any avalanche safety gear |
I was very interested to see this information posted by snowcrazy on another thread. I've never heard of a 'piste nature' before and was wondering if it's the old 'itinéraire' under another name, and more importantly, whether people think that is 'off piste' for the purposes of the average insurance policy. Any views?
Are there any other resorts with this sort of 'piste'?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Can't see how it would be off piste, it's just ungroomed controlled terrain same as most stuff in N America which I've always held doesn't need special off-piste insurance (if you're on on a named or numbered run). Tignes & others have freeride zones - got to be a good idea if they're gasexing stuff anyway.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, I agree that makes sense. I've never heard of 'freeride zones' either. But I had thought that the general trend in France was the reverse of this and was, rather, to 'de-formalize' (sorry, that's not really a word, I'm sure) itineraries, so that they no longer had to be patrolled and became, in effect, off-piste terrain. I am confused. 
(Edited to make more sense.)
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 23-02-12 1:09; edited 1 time in total
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Gosh, we need more of this!
Almost every winter I trek across the Atlantic with my family because I can't find any resort in Europe that offers me the opportunity to ski extensive ungroomed and unprepared terrain without the need to hire a guide to ensure the kids are safe. We can ski down almost anything (OK, we draw the line at skiing off cliffs), and my eyes are quite capable of spotting trees, rocks, deep snowdrifts and other obstacles when they're in front of me. What I can't do is predict whether an unfamiliar slope will offer no safe way off the mountain - perhaps leading to a sheer drop with no alternative route or drop me out below the lowest lift, for example - or expose me to unacceptable levels of avalanche danger.
If they could double the number of piste nature runs to 20 or more, I might be tempted to give the place a crack. St Anton and Zermatt have some similar runs, but the scope is so limited that they really don't keep an adventurous family busy for a week.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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same as a regular piste only ungroomed.
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Jonny Jones, I agree it would be fantastic if there more of these. Come to think of it, I did ski some (fairly short) unpisted runs in St Anton the other week, and they were indeed marked runs.
Are there any other European resorts, apart from those already mentioned (Paradiski, Tignes, St Anton, Zermatt) that have these pistes natures or freeride zones, or whatever they're called, but anyway defined pistes, avi-controlled before being opened to skiers (and - not sure about this one - patrolled ie 'swept' for stragglers at the end of the day??)?
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| kioksor wrote: |
| same as a regular piste only ungroomed. |
This is it. I skied all the ones that were there is les arcs two years ago and this is all they were, it's not huge bits of sidecountry or anything. Basically just moguls unless it had snowed very recently.
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It is a way of cost cutting.
The American do it too. Each day they will have a groomed trail map showing which runs have been groomed. Those ungroomed runs are now glorified by Paradiski.
There are resorts that become famous of not grooming their piste. Ste Foy and La Grave come to mind.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| ... (and - not sure about this one - patrolled ie 'swept' for stragglers at the end of the day??)? |
On anything other than beginner runs, sweeping the runs at the end of the day seems somewhat unnecessary. If I get into trouble on a run, it'll be because I've crashed really badly and had a major injury, lost or broken my gear, or landed upside down in a tree well. I'm not sure I'd want to wait until the end of the day to be rescued in any of those cases - which is why I never ski alone.
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Jonny Jones, I wasn't asking whether it was necessary, just whether it was done (or not). I do sometimes ski that sort of thing - the standard/easy route on Les Grands Montets* springs to mind - on my own, but making sure that there are other people within eyeshot, particularly above me, in the hope that they wouldn't just ski past if I were lying in a heap. I have no idea, incidentally, whether that route is patrolled at the end of the day or not.
So, are we just talking about ordinary pistes, which just happen to be ungroomed, ie the old itinéraires (which I thought the French had mostly phased out - but apparently not)?
Edit: *Can't remember now whether that is/was an itinerary (dotted black on the ski map) or an unpisted black run, or maybe even an unpisted red run. Anyway, it's never pisted, but invariably very tracked out because it's so popular.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 23-02-12 2:19; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| saikee wrote: |
| It is a way of cost cutting. |
If sparing slopes from the groomers is a necessary consequence of the straitened economic times in which we live then roll on a full-blown Depression, I say.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
Jonny Jones,
Are there any other European resorts, apart from those already mentioned (Paradiski, Tignes, St Anton, Zermatt) that have these pistes natures or freeride zones, or whatever they're called, but anyway defined pistes, avi-controlled before being opened to skiers (and - not sure about this one - patrolled ie 'swept' for stragglers at the end of the day??)? |
Loads. As in probably 90% of the resorts I've skied (although they never have enough of them).
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clarky999, and yet snowcrazy was talking about this as though it were a great new invention.  I obviously need to try harder to search out Grands Montets-type on-piste experiences.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| clarky999, and yet snowcrazy was talking about this as though it were a great new invention. I obviously need to try harder to search out Grands Montets-type on-piste experiences. |
I think possibly resorts went through a phase of grooming runs that were left ungroomed as piste carving became more popular, and are now going back to ungroomed as that becomes more popular...
If you look at many Austrian piste maps (can't comment on other countries) you will often see dashed lines (or similar) to represent this sort of thing, or with added diamonds to indicate 'extremeness' (LOL!).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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clarky999, yeah, I haven't skied much in Austria. French maps used to have those lines, but now don't have so many (or so I thought.)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| Are there any other European resorts, apart from those already mentioned (Paradiski, Tignes, St Anton, Zermatt) that have these pistes natures or freeride zones, or whatever they're called, but anyway defined pistes, avi-controlled before being opened to skiers (and - not sure about this one - patrolled ie 'swept' for stragglers at the end of the day??)? |
Pedantica, Avoriaz has them, called 'Snowcross' I think (my photos on fb from Morzine where I'm trying to be gnarly are on such an area  ). Ah, found them on their website http://www.avoriaz.com/ski-holidays/the-snowcross.php . The area we went on off the Fornet lift was more of an open hillside to make your way down than a marked itinery route, such as you would normally get in Austria
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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cathy, thanks. I'd like to go back to that area at some point (have only been once, some years ago.) Even better if the areas are big, open ones.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As mentioned above St Foy has three areas which are called Zone Techniride, Off Tracks and Shapers Paradise. These zones make up a considrable part of the Skiing at the top of St Foy. Shaper's Paradise is pretty extensive with lots of drops and very varied slopes and terrain. The piste maps show these areas clearly but they do not fully reflect the size of each area.  mmmm back there in a few weeks time can not wait
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Pedantica, I was really impressed with the whole PdS and certainly these Snowcross areas were not something I'd really come across before. As you say, a large wide area that is 'safe off-piste' - great for practising on and we really did enjoy it
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PS - I don't really know their status and whether they would be treated as off-piste or not for insurance purposes but I would have been covered anyway by my insurance.
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cathy, plus lessons from Tim, what more can one ask for?
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Controlled freeride areas have long been one of the USPs of Flims/Laax.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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livetoski, I was wondering if you would be wondering! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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La Plagne had at least a couple of "piste natur" last season as well. They were basically massive icy mogul fests most of the time...
I wasn't under the impression they were a new thing?
IMO they're still pistes for insurance purposes - marked and avi controlled, just not groomed. Saw the pisteurs on them a couple of times just like any normal piste so other than the grooming I don't think there's a difference.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
As mentioned above St Foy has three areas which are called Zone Techniride, Off Tracks and Shapers Paradise
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Are these areas in Ste Foy controlled from an avalanche risk point of view?
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New this year, Bormio has two large "freeride" areas at the top of the mountain. One is a massive north facing bowl which funnels all the way down to the valley (if the snow ever gets that far) and the other an easterly facing area, more varied and partly covered in trees. According to the piste map you must only enter these areas via controlled gates and must carry avalanche gear - although they are supposedly made safe - but they also say they won't open if the risk is 3 or higher.
All this does really is legitimise off-piste in those areas and try to counter the image of Italy as somewhere that discourages (and in some places - inc the rest of Bormio - actively bans) skiing off the marked runs and threatens confiscation of your lift pass if you do.
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You know it makes sense.
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ibexman,
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Are these areas in Ste Foy controlled from an avalanche risk point of view?
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YES the however bit is that the Off Tracks area is a Black Run called The Crystal Dark this is very often shut, but is still skied by lots of people when it is shut. When it avalanches it always goes in roughly the same place. Late season sunny afternoons is it usually time or just after a big snow fall I will dig out some pics laters.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| bobmcstuff wrote: |
| IMO they're still pistes for insurance purposes - marked and avi controlled, just not groomed. Saw the pisteurs on them a couple of times just like any normal piste so other than the grooming I don't think there's a difference. |
I don't know about the Snowcross areas at Avoriaz though. They are marked on the piste map but are not marked routes on the ground, they are avalanche controlled but they do also have a lot of natural obstacles such as little rocky outcrops/cliffs etc. If an insurance company would treat one foot the wrong side of a piste marker as being off-piste, I really wouldn't want to say whether they would treat the Snowcross area as off-piste or not.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks. Presumably Crystal Dark slides from above where you traverse in? Always thought it looked a bit iffy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmm, looks like it might be a bit of grey area insurance-wise. And also, perhaps, that the status of these areas in Europe varies from resort to resort.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm not sure that the natur pistes are specifically a cost saving as there must be a level of management of the runs..
There is a lovely Natur run just above arc 1600 that is marked as a red (with piste markers all the way down too) called Malgovert that is fantastic. There are mini drops, trees, moguls and more to ski on/around.. One of my favourite runs of the Les Arcs resort.. Will be trying more of the black ones when I go back! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Pedantica, = Marketing.
The new ones in La Plagne this season have never been pisted to any great extent. One of them is probably my favourite piste in La Plagne for many different reasons. Only the run out has ever been pisted to my knowledge.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 27-02-12 8:47; edited 1 time in total
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bobmcstuff, Boredsurfing, thanks. Interesting.
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It's weird, after my learner week I did a season in LP (and went over to LA a bit), so I just kinda assumed that it was the norm to call ungroomed pistes "natur" on the piste map just so you knew. Apparently it's not!
I don't remember unpisted runs being marked that way in 3Vs when I was there last month, so guess it figures.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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bobmcstuff, I think the difference is between occasionally groomed ( or " might be , but check the board before setting out") and never groomed. Malgovert for example, (the red natur they talk about) is never groomed. Probably because they can't get a basher down it...
The Naturs around the 2000 bowl in LA are spectacular, challenging, and a delight to ski. In fact, I think there are few blacks left in LA that aren't natur, certainly in the 2000 side of things . Refuges in the Grand Col, and of course the Aguille Rouge, but apart from that...?
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The St Anton ones are not patrolled.
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FAQ
I would never have dreamed of going down there if it hadn't been for him! He took us down a lot of 'by-the-side-of-piste', 'areas-between-piste'. Really really good. That's Tim Jackson, based in Morzine with LGS (Les Gets Ski) if anyone is interested - excellent instructor 
And there's a well-frequented picnic stop (ie some flat rocks) just at the top, so on a sunny day, there's an appreciative audience for one's (my) less than competent skiing. 