 Poster: A snowHead
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My comment refers to the extreme end of skiing as shown in the video taken at the victim's route.
If only going through such condition could qualify me to make a judgement then I am chicken for avoiding such a risk. I don't see my life being enjoyed to the full by assuming the snow won't be hardpacked and could halt my fall in such a condition.
This is not a matter between cruising reds and going off piste. It is a matter of abseiling a rock cliff to find some snow to ski on.
My post was a response to
| Quote: |
Unfortunately there are too many people prepared to make judgements about things they know little about
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When things are so obvious it doesn't need to be physically there to appreciate the risk. Anybody looking at the Matterhorn can form an opinion that it would be dangerous to climb without the need to know over 500 were killed previously before the first human set foot on its peak.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 19-02-12 1:56; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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saikee, thanks for posting the vid link. Very sad news about the guys that died. I am not going to join in this discussion.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Very sad news. RIP.
| Voice of Treason wrote: |
dudes
living life to the full is one thing
but
if you risk your life more and live on the edge
like base jumpers, fighetr pilots, extreme skiers
does that mean you value it less ?
ok bye |
Taking bigger risks, but for bigger rewards.
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clarky999,
dude
so is the reward
valued higher than the risk of death ?
ok bye
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Really sad. If it's the guy I think it is (yes it is, I've just Googled him), I skied with Matthieu for a few days about 4 years ago - probably the first year after he qualified. He was a really nice, friendly, self-effacing lad, although at that time his English was a bit limited so he started off a bit quiet and took a day or two to relax and open up with the group. The last run of the week, pretty much all of the group decided to download from P2 but I was keen to carry on for the rest of the run to top off a fantastic couple of days. So he and I took a little exploratory bushwhack through the trees to skiers' right of the lift between P2 and P1 - seriously steep, but great fun for both of us. Even though I didn't ski with him again after that, we always had a brief chat whenever I was back there.
I've done La Voute twice and it's has to be right up there as one of my favourite runs in the Alps. Once you're in the throat of it the cliffs rising up on either side of you give a spectacular feeling of enclosure and drama. It's also only a relatively recent common route - 20-30 years ago I'm told the end of the glacier feeding into a side entrance was sufficiently active that the risk of serac falls was too great for it to be skied regularly. That PisteHors blog is slightly contradictory, first off speculating that the accident happened above the abseil (which would give the reasonable explanation of a fatality by falling off the cliffs), but the translated PHGM release (I assume more informed) saying that it happened below the abseil. While it's somewhere that requires care, it's never struck me (like Arno) as a genuine no-fall zone - giving that fantastic drama for not particularly extreme technical demands - but I've only done it in good conditions. Maybe this goes to reinforce what a difference snow conditions make - and why another guide I was with a couple of years ago was right to abandon a plan he had to go down it when he decided conditions were a bit too hard. I expect that the client lost it, failed to self-arrest, and Matthieu then tried to catch him as he went past.
So really sad - and that will be particularly felt in the Edelweiss where Matthieu was a very good friend.
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"When things are so obvious it doesn't need to be physically there to appreciate the risk. Anybody looking at the Matterhorn can form an opinion that it would be dangerous to climb without the need to know over 500 were killed previously before the first human set foot on its peak."
And your point is?
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| While it's somewhere that requires care, it's never struck me (like Arno) as a genuine no-fall zone - giving that fantastic drama for not particularly extreme technical demands - but I've only done it in good conditions. Maybe this goes to reinforce what a difference snow conditions make - and why another guide I was with a couple of years ago was right to abandon a plan he had to go down it when he decided conditions were a bit too hard. |
Snow conditions are absolutely vital as to whether or not something is "no fall" pretty much. People have died climbing Aladdin's Couloir in Scotland and it's hardly a big or crazy technical line and often used as an intro into winter climbing. Slippery conditions with the opportunity to rattle through rocks or off cliffs means no fall. It's also relative to the pitch of the slope, amount of sluff etc. Otherwise in a lot of other situations you have a much better chance to self-arrest either through the use of a tool like the whippet or using the press-up technique. Both require practice though.
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sorry to post this but just read it at the back of Anselme Baud's book on skiing in the Mont Blanc massif and it seemed rather fitting.."Better to be lost to one's passion than to loose one's passion".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Voice of Treason wrote: |
clarky999,
dude
so is the reward
valued higher than the risk of death ?
ok bye |
Yes (maybe not individually, but at least cumulatively) - otherwise it wouldn't be worth doing.
But at the same time it's not that simple, it's not a blind roll of the dice... It is (or at least should be) a calculated risk, balanced between skill, likelihood of a mistake, consequences of a mistake, and reward.
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| Quote: |
does that mean you value it less ?
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Not exactly in the way it's put. But they're certainly more willing to throw it away than many others.
Mind you, those "others" might prefer to die of diebete on a sofa. I know one such, my Dad. He's rather I don't ski at all so I can die on a sofa some day.
It's the fear. Some embrace it. Others sick to the stomach from it. Doesn't make the former "brave", they just get a big kick out of the adrenalin! My parents are both risk adverse because they don't like anything unpredictable. But I found risk exciting! (though I don't do those on the video)
It's just a personal preference. I don't feel there's a right or wrong about it. Much less us to judge those who choose to do it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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dudes
the acid test would be
for a dude to be happy to expose their pre-teen kids
to the same level of risk that extreme sports attract
if dudes are not willing for their kids to face the same risk
then they value their life less than their kids
and by extension, others
ok bye
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Voice of Treason wrote: |
dudes
the acid test would be
for a dude to be happy to expose their pre-teen kids
to the same level of risk that extreme sports attract
if dudes are not willing for their kids to face the same risk
then they value their life less than their kids
and by extension, others
ok bye |
That's not an unreasonable view. However determining the relative 'risk' of an activity for a given individual is not straight forward, and it's probably the case that the 'client' in this case used the guide to mitigate that risk.
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Tragedy apart, and to be honest as a climber this looks like one of those "poo happens" incidents that you accept the risk of when going into places like that, having watched the video I was wondering how they get the rope back after the ab? It looks like they're abbing on a single rope, and I guess it'd make sense to have the option to abort if things were unreasonable once you got down, but does someone have to back to collect the rope afterwards?
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You know it makes sense.
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RIP
Its a run I have always wanted to do - extra care needed on a snowboard having only 1 edge.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Voice of Treason wrote: |
dudes
the acid test would be
for a dude to be happy to expose their pre-teen kids
to the same level of risk that extreme sports attract
if dudes are not willing for their kids to face the same risk
then they value their life less than their kids
and by extension, others
ok bye |
Interesting but really flawed.
Everything in life carries some risk and we do plenty of dangerous and potentially fatal things day to day we wouldn't let pre-teen children do (e.g. driving, crossing the road by themselves). Managing risk has little to do with the value placed on life or even the relative value placed on the life of another. Different people have different risk tolerances but I think they all value being alive.
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Poster: A snowHead
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It would be really hard to do all these risky things without being alive. Ergo, these risk-takers must value life.
OK, that's probably a flawed argument too. Just sayin'...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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andy from embsay, you can definitely see two ropes in the video cover picture and in the POV footage. The first person down definitely looks like they are abing on a single rope though. At a guess because everyone is still tied into it or because it makes it easier for clients then the rope can be reset to be recoverable for the guide. You wouldn't want someone inexperienced accidentally pulling the rope down after all!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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meh, when i did that route, the guide lowered us down off an Italian hitch (IIRC - this was a while ago) - nothing complicated for the punters to do other than walk backwards down the face. He then abbed down off a double rope using a belay device.
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Italian Hitch off the ab point is standard stuff. As Arno, says Guide is then in total control. Its the traverse in there that is more risky. I would be inclined to crampon/ice axe being a snowboarder...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Although in the video the first person is clearly abbing down themselves, you can see the bright blue belay device and them working the rope through with their brake hand whilst the person I assumed was a guide as they arrived first and setup the rope is taking their photo on a point and shoot camera. Probably isn't a guided group at a guess then.
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norris, have you done that line? when I did it, we had 2 abs, although I have heard that the first is avoidable with a little bit of shimmying around... it looks like the group in the vid went for this option, although I'd probably take the additional ab over that traverse
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Arno, no - never been in condition when I have been. Phillipe Andre didn't want to risk it with 4 us snowboarding. Yes that traverse in looks nasty although not as bad as Pan de rideau? another I really don't fancy on a board particulary...seem to remember you have done it.
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norris, no doubt the traverse into the Pan is pretty terrifying... and I think I have a reasonable head for these things 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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maybe i should go across on my splitboard!!
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the thing about the Pan, though, is that to access it you can either do the traverse, or climb up to the top of it and ski the top 50m or so which is super-steep and apparently riddled with rocks. so it's a case of choosing the best worst option
with La Voute, the additional ab adds some faff, but the ski down to the 1st ab is pretty straightforward (if you ski in control) then you have a fairly straightforward bootpack upto the second ab point. the bootpack could be sketchy in exceptionally hard/icey conditions - but you'd probably give the run a miss on those days anyway
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Arno, Yes I heard on the Pan you can avoid the traverse and go down on a rope from higher up?
must go back to La Grave in better conditions one day. always seems to be wacked when I have been.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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andy from embsay, meh, when I've done it, yes the guide (same one both times) belayed us down on an Italian hitch, but then came down on a single rope after us. He must have had some quick-release attachment, or a tension knot, as after he abseiled down he just released the tension on the rope, flicked it and it came free and dropped down to him.
Arno, the first time we did two abs, the second time just one, but both times we approached from the other side of the ab point to the guys in the vid (for a while I was wondering if they'd got the vid L-R swapped). That first time was clearly the same route you did, as that sidestep/bootpack up from the first ab was a right PITA - reallly quite soft snow so an awful lot of one-step-up/half-a-step-slip-back-down. We also saw a group coming in just above us as we were bootpacking up - I assume taking the route we took the second time. I've really not much recollection of the route for the single-ab - certainly nothing feeling as exposed as we see in the vid - but I think the difference is that there's a bit of fiddling about above the 1-ab, so the 2-ab gives you a fair bit more good skiing above the abs. So clearly several ways in.
norris, from what little I remember there's no problem with the 1-ab route Phillipe took us down - although there may have been a bit of slight uphill that wouldn't be great on a board. Once into the couloir you'd have a ball - no more difficult than e.g. the Canadien we went down, although more dramatically enclosed - although possibly a bit of light bushwhacking or a walk out when you get near to the valley bottom.
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I've skied into it with only one rappel from two routes. One with a slightly sketchy sideslip/billygoat direct to the anchor (Not the one in the video though) and the other much safer still having to hike up slightly to the anchor. I guess it depends on snow build up. I wasn't a fan of the sketchy route and never repeated it that way. I wouldn't have liked to of been there on hard snow.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hi,
my heart goes out to the friends and family of the skiers who died.
For the sake of clarification, there are two entries to La Voute couloir. In the referenced video you can see the less used skiers left entry, which has two rappels (25m + ~30m depending on snow conditions). The less exposed and more frequently used skiers right entry has one ~30m rappel. According to the news the unfortunate skiers entered the couloir with one 30m rappel, therefore it must be the skiers right entry. Hence the referenced video does not depict the entry and the rappel that the unfortunate skiers had taken.
I doubt that guides would be willing to take clients to the skiers left entry unless snowconditions were good.
BR,
Ville
| saikee wrote: |
I know it is sad when a client lost his life but to some extent he asked and paid for this extreme experience.
Would it be sadder for the guide who did it for a living and could not refuse to go along? say when he found the snow was too icy but there was no way to turn back. The third skier, who was a client too, managed to survive and raise the alarm.
This video posted in Pistehors.com pretty much sums up what was the risk. It is a glorious experience when the skiers win but it is sad event when the mountain wins. At the end of the day it is all about how much we trust the snow gripping our skis to keep us alive |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ville_S, thanks for that. didn't realise that line got skied - it looked quite threatened by seracs when i last looked up there (a few years ago admittedly)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| chamster wrote: |
| sorry to post this but just read it at the back of Anselme Baud's book on skiing in the Mont Blanc massif and it seemed rather fitting.."Better to be lost to one's passion than to loose one's passion". |
Indeed, speaking of his son lost to serac fall on the gervasutti couloir.
I've always thought it a little selfish of people to ski "no fall" lines. I mean its grand if you've no kids or close family or loved ones, and some of these guys don't, but if you do I don't think it's really fair on them. Anyone thinking they won't die is just naive - anyone who works in the mountains professionally will know lots of people who've died. Anyone who is (like me) an armchair mountaineer or extreme skier will know of literally hundreds who have died.
That said, I haven't been able to watch this video because I can't play vimeo on my android, but any YouTube videos of this line i've seen don't show it being extreme. And I presume a guide wouldn't bring you down a line that is that dangerous, so I don't think my criticisms apply to these guys, God rest them.
I mean do we know what actually happened yet?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmmmm, actually on reflection Doug coombs and a guide working with him were killed skiing a line with clients in la grave so presumably they do ski very dangerous lines commercially. It must be a crazy rush because I think you never feel more alive than when you've come through a situation where you think your life's in danger. But there's something very morally ambivalent about it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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8611, Coombs was skiing for pleasure with friends when he was killed, not with paying clients.
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| 8611 wrote: |
| I've always thought it a little selfish of people to ski "no fall" lines. I mean its grand if you've no kids or close family or loved ones, and some of these guys don't, but if you do I don't think it's really fair on them. Anyone thinking they won't die is just naive - anyone who works in the mountains professionally will know lots of people who've died. Anyone who is (like me) an armchair mountaineer or extreme skier will know of literally hundreds who have died. |
Hundreds? Skiing?
I am a non-armchair mountaineer and steep-ish (don't like the word extreme) skier. I can think of a few skiers who have died on steep lines over the years but certainly not lots, let alone hundreds (currently finding some wood to touch.). In fact if you look at the original 'Extreme' skiers an awful lot of them are still alive (Baud, Saudan, de Benedetti, Chauchefoin, Tardivel) and of those who have passed away a lot were in non-skiing related accidents (eg Boivin base-jumping, Vallencant climbing etc).
Personally I feel much safer off piste on a steep slope than I do standing on a red run in February. On piste there are thousands of uncontrollable risks (some in jeans and on Wedze skis) all trying to kill me & I can't control them, off piste there are very real risks but a lot of them are controllable to a lesser or greater extent.
In fact, it would be interesting to compare the numbers for deaths / severe injuries on piste to those for deaths/ severe injuries of 'steep' skiers for recent years.
And if we continue on the theme of no-one doing any 'risk' activities then the world would be a pretty boring place, America would never have been discovered (arguably a good thing, some might say), air travel wouldn't exist etc etc etc
Personally I would rather indulge in 'risk' activities than commute on UK motorways every day and sit on the couch watching Westenders and Corrie while eating crisps and preparing my arteries for the impending coronary (risk assess that!).
To assume that people taking part in risk activities are selfish just doesn't work. Among my friends I count people who climb & ski incredibly hard/bold things, and none of them want to die, they are not living simply for today, they all have lots of plans for the future all of which are reliant on them still being alive...
Yes there are a few 'wild guys' out there who really don't seem to care, but they are very much the minority...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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offpisteskiing, Good post.
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Sorry you're right my bad
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Good quote I found on another thread discussing a similar topic:
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
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offpisteskiing,
It is possible that many people do not "indulge in 'risk' activities but commute on UK motorways every day in a boring world" because they have to feed their families.
I suppose the word "selfish" in this case referring to a skier who a has young family and people dependent on his well being but still indulges in taking risks.
A skier can have someone whom he cares so much about and wants to protect by making sure himself available. This can reduce his choices of risk taking. Such an act is love.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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8611, I don't think it is necessarily that skiing 'no-fall' lines is not a selfish act, but if you start digging you will find that a lot of mundane things in life can be deemed selfish depending on which direction you view them from...
Hmmm, this is all getting very profound for a Saturday morning!
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