Ski Hosts good bad or just dangerous?

A snowHead

I've skiied with Inghams (Val Thorens) and Neilsons (Saalbach) and both fantastic.

Neilsons offered 3 day's guiding and always had two guides, one at the front and one who always stuck to the back to keep the slower skiiers rounded up. I can't praise the two guys we had enough Smile

A snowHead

I was a host for 3 years in the late 80's and I was very, very good. Twisted Evil

Not a new phenomenon, not a new argument.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

woody911,

It was great to meet you last week and I hope you're transfer back to Geneva went well. When we debated this at dinner on Saturday night with one of the ski hosts, it was evident that you come at this from the perspective of an expert skier with loads of coaching skill and experience. Hence, you are more aware of the risks and dangers on the mountain than most. There were two hosts available throughout the week: one leading a group of "faster" skiers, the other leading less fast skiers. All the leading was on piste although there was nothing said to dissuade individuals dropping off the piste from time to time if that's what they wanted to do. My son (an accomplished skier) and I (a reasonably competent intermediate) joined the faster group midweek and, over a morning, I struggled to keep up. My son, without me asking, acted as my back marker and the host always waited at pre-arranged points, was attentive, friendly and respectful. After lunch, my son stayed with the faster group and I joined the less fast group which I found a lot more comfortable although I think there were there were about fourteen skiers with a wide range of ages and abilities. The ski host was a very good piste skier and although only 22 year's old led the group with a good deal of authority and instilled a good degree of confidence.

I joined the less fast group on one other morning and it was another good experience, although I was a little surprised when the host explained at a high point that the route from there would take in a black run. At that point four of the group decided to go elsewhere.

Overall, like many of those on this topic, I found the service good and worthwhile, whilst not underestimating the potential dangers, but I'm not sure that they were any greater than those that might be encountered by a group of mates. That said, I was surprised that the hosts had been issued with mobiles which could receive calls but not make them which I would have thought might constitute a safety issue if a call for assistance were required (assuming these were barred also).

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Chris Bish,

What makes you think ski school is any different? Been "lost" twice by a ski school. At least the one last year apologised when I saw him later. The other one caused me to change ski group as I lost trust in him. Funnily enough both were ESF in Tignes!

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skitrack, The difference is in their accountability. Ski instructors are trained and insured to take responsibility for those in their charge. If something goes wrong, you have every right to complain. This is not the case with TO guides. They are offering a courtesy to experienced skiers (who do not, in theory, need ski school) in showing them round the resort at the skiers' own risk. As untrained non-instructors it is hard to see how anything else can apply. Why should a skier expect anyone else to take responsibility for them?

snowHead

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we've had quite a few really good days with the Esprit guides. I think the worst out of 5 years worth was "Good" but most of tehm have been excellent, and skiing for the first couple of days with a load of other parents to get to know each other has always been good fun whilst the kids are having their lessons. tend to find eth groups nerge towards sub-groups of similar speeds, and that often leads to skiing with each other as teh week goes on. Lunch and hot drinks and the odd schnapps on the mountain are often more fun with new people to chat to.

Genrally a very positive thing

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After all it is free

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We've used a couple and overall been glad we are competent ourselves - I think the service is a great idea and would give it a go again, but only as I am totally confident in my own navigation and judgement if required. One host nearly got us all stuck in the wrong valley due to not really remembering how the lifts connected up after a main lift closed - we mutinied after one failed loop and a couple of us took over and returned everyone to their chosen abodes in the nick of time before last lifts - in fairness to him the shamefaced host did apologise and say thank-you once he worked out what we were saying. Another was cutting between runs so often it was impossible to work out which one he was trying to follow resulting in multiple lost folks and at one point most of us having to drop down a small cliff to get back to him (fun for us Toofy Grin

wasn't so popular with some of the group). A third seemed to have an unerring aim for every flat in resort - one of the boarders in the group was ready to commit homicide by lunchtime and we said our goodbyes. We have had one good hosting experience, although we were slightly faster than one of the pair of hosts with us so after an hour one of _them_ ducked out and left us to it!

So while I like the idea, not so sure about the past experiences so far...

aj xx

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DB,

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The fact is that any of you unhappy with ski hosts are at liberty to pay for a professional ski instructor either privately or as a group. As usual you get what you pay for, and if you expect anything more than directions and orientation from a guide then spend some cash. Else stop griping about a lack of service you cannot afford.

We had one v good Ski Olympic guide who took us out on some very, very, poor visibility days when we'd have been hopeless on our own. He was qualified to basic level as an instructor and told us that whilst he wasn't allowed to instruct, he'd be happy to give us some "hints and tips" in the thick fog, as nobody could see him. wink

His hints and tops were actually very helpful - basic stuff, which we needed reminding about.

I spent a couple of days very early one season in Meribel with a guy who was trying to learn the ropes v quickly as he would be working as a guide during the season. He was a very good skier - far better than I was, for sure, but happy to have a sociable ski as he learnt the piste map. I lost a ski in powder and he and the other two people with us, more experienced than I was, showed me how to do an organised search for it. Good days.

You know it makes sense.

I've skied with various hosts over the years, mostly Mark Warner and I've always found them to be responsible and attentive. The only one who was less so was actually a Mark Warner host, who took a group down a black run without warning (in poor visibility), and a couple of slower members came badly unstuck (there were tears!). Everyone got down it eventually, but he should have given a warning on the difficulty and an alternative to those who didn't want to do it I think.

But overall, I've found all hosts take care of their groups as far as possible.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

yeah the OP is right, ski hosts are dangerous people and you are much better staying in bed and only getting up to watch afternoon TV.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The \Espit ones dont take you down blacks and instead tell the punters that if they want to go down they will take the others around and meet up at teh bottom etc. Then when everyone goes down the black they just follow down.
From a guiding point of view that seems sensible to me

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Sorry to be pedantic but the only people that can call themselves guides are Guides whom have the relevant qualification. Hosts whatever please

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My son, daughter and wife used a ski host today. Feedback was in the main excellent - he knew 3v very well and understood the standard of skier he was dealing with. He did go a bit too fast at times but stopped at reasonable intervals to check on those that got a bit left behind were picked up and dealt with it with a friendly but firm 'get a move on'. Unfortuneately he did have a tendancy to 'push the envelope' a bit going down steep and mogully blacks which he described as 'dark blues'.

My son, daughter and wife were really thankful as when they stopped for lunch, he picked the tab up without any fuss. At the end of the day their was a briefs 'thanks - that was a great day' but no tip and they expected him to sort out the skis, poles etc for tomorrow's skiing.

Guess I should be used to it now - just another day for a dad Toofy Grin

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alti - dude, Laughing

After all it is free

alti - dude, You had me... right up to the part about picking up the tab... Laughing

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A very interesting thread ...

There's a very good reason why the French insist on appropriate qualifications for ski instructors and mountain guides, etc. and this is first and foremost for the safety of clients. It ensures a minimum level of competence; both technically and in terms of group management. It is often when "things" go wrong that this lack of competence comes to light. In France many outdoor activities (at least when one is operating professionally) are regulated professions (in the same way as doctors or some other professions are regulated in the UK).

The individual "ski hosts" may be great people, be competent skiers but the fact is "ski hosts" as employed by UK operators are treading on very, very thin ice when it comes to French law governing leading and organising groups on activities such as skiing. The maximum penalty is up to Euro 15,000 and 1 years imprisonment - and this has been used in the case of "false" mountain guides. "When in Rome ..."

"Protectionism" - no, if you've got what it takes to pass the qualifications (or have the appropriate UK qualification and request the "equivalence") there's no real problem (having gone through this process myself).

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Colin Bell, I believe that we may have shared a lift or two last week, if so it was a pleasure to meet you.

Regarding the hosting experience, while I was not with that group on that particular day, I do know that from the outset it was made clear to all that there was an advanced group and an intermediate group. If you felt your skiing ability allowed you to fit into a category then by all means you could join the ski hosts and they would show you the area. Once skiing had started it remained your choice if you wanted to be part of the group.

As is rightly pointed out, ski hosts are not qualified guides but then they do not claim to be. Their working role involves other duties, but while on the slopes I never found either of our two hosts to be anything other than patient, helpful and communicative while keeping the group together by clearly stating where we were going and arranging stop off points. If anything, their knowledge of the area was such that they chose slopes based on the ability of the group as they observed it, taking care to avoid slopes that the weather conditions would have rendered unenjoyable to ski. The choice was always there for people if they wanted to drop out and while some of the runs were hard work for some of the skiers, I never once observed an individual being pressured into skiing a certain route by the host. It was always the choice of the individual and their friends whether or not to continue on any given route.

Unfortunately, the final responsibility falls with the individual skiier. I know as I took myself off the mountain after lunch one day due to staying out a little too late the night before. I simply told the host and that was that. It is not always possible to see what goes on around you on a slope, but it is possible to know your own limits (if not your own bed-time).

Overall, I found the experience to be what I expected of it - a sociable way of avoiding having to check your piste map every five minutes while figuring out which way North is.

Chris.

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alti - dude, Laughing

You had me, too! So long as everyone bears in mind the distinctions between a "host" and a proper mountain "guide" I don't see a big problem here - almost all the groups you see on the mountain are being shepherded around by someone. Usually "Dad", but sometimes "Mum". wink

You know it makes sense.

marksavoie, While I think your point is quite valid, what's the difference between a UK company host and the CMB "Ambassadors"? or indded the ski friends found in many N.A. Resorts?

Or, the accompagnateurs who happily escort french package tour clients around the area, sans qualifications?

Goose, sauce, gander, etc.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

under a new name,

A snowHead

marksavoie has spent a fortune on getting trained up, and is into protectionism. His self-righteous scaremongering post should not be viewed in any other light. There is no way that the big TOs, with hundreds of staff ski-hosting in France, are going to risk the wholesale imprisonment and fining of their staff. The headlines this would generate for Mark Warner, TUI (Crystal, Thomson (?)), Hotelplan (Inghams, Ski Total, Esprit) etc. etc. would be spectacular.

A snowHead

mark,

It clearly would be protectionist to insist that someone be a trained ski instructor let alone a UIAGM guide to show people round the pistes and make a few restaurant recommendations. That is all ski hosts are supposed to be doing. Of course, if they start taking clients off piste or instructing then you have a point and they are putting themselves at risk of prosecution.

J

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

marksavoie, Say what you like but if I just want a general orientation to a resort, perhaps introduction to a group of people to ski with and something I may well choose to drop out of if it's going to fast or slow for me, I'm not going to be handing cash over to a qualified instructor at lesson rates. We know the French have never liked British ski hosting but it doesn't mean it serves a purpose.

If I pay an UIAGM guide to take me to interesting places I work on the basis that he has the skills and experience to get me out of sticky situations and/or a hotline to a helivac if essential. If I don't pay a ski host I work on the basis that I'm not getting anyone any more skilled or competent than myself when it comes to emergencies (although I might expect he's more familiar with local rescue protocols etc)

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fatbob, My understanding is that the law in France requires anybody leading an outdoor activity to be qualified to some level, this qualification can be a long way below that of UIAGM guide or Instructor as is pretty obvious if you see French school parties on Wednesday afternoons.

My memory is that this all started with an accident to a group of French climbers about 20 years ago. One fell off something and pulled off several more of the group, the organizer of the trip was prosecuted as being the "leader" of the party even though there was no financial arrangement between the members of the group.

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rjs, it is true that the most experienced in a group will probably be treated as the "leader" for liability purposes. it is not true that the leader of every group has to have a qualification (that would mean dad would need a qualification to ski around with his kids)

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fatbob, not sure he said ski hosts didn't serve a purpose? Just that they are on thin ice legally in France (which is presumably why they've been told not to ski in company jackets) and that unqualified guides have got in trouble before.

I'm actually hoping to make use of Mark's snowshoe guiding in April - there are loads of places I want to get to that I'd really like an experienced and qualified guide to help with. I am assuming he doesn't actually do on piste resort orientations and it's not what I'm interested in anyway. We have local ambassadors here who point people in the right direction in low visibility and help people with the maps etc. - not seen them actually skiing with people though... maybe they do.

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miranda, I'm sure you're right. What I'm identifying is that ski hosts fill a gap in the market that ski schools/ full guides don't really seem to want to fill. The arguments about legality have blown around for decades - periodically a commune will have a purge and bust a load of TO staff but it doesn't seem to bother TOs that much and obviously remains valued by the punters.

After all it is free

My feeling are that TO's offered this service initially just to give the transfer reps something to get paid for during the week.
I think it's now more or less expected for the UK market.

As to the quality of service, last season the company I worked for gave one and a half's days training/instruction on what is to be expected.
This was done to a high standard by a very experienced host (Hi Jane)
This years company gave only a brief 15 -20minutes on it and it expects staff who are to busy already to do it. I also got told they only provide it because it's expected.

So a lot of the quality of the host is down to the companies regard of the job and therefore the customers expectation.

I could go into the view of the job from the host side if you want, but I don't have time for that rant Very Happy

Dwarf Vader, do the rant when you find time please - it'd be really interesting to hear!

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James the Last, No, I'm not into protectionism but I do happen to respect the law of the country I happen to live and work in.

jedster, Under French law the moment you are working "contre remuneration" (includes payment in kind) then you require the requisite professional qualification. On skis this is going to mean either a IFMGA guide or ski instructor. It may not seem necessary to you or others but it is the law. I believe that the subject of "ski hosts" has been "ignored" but it has now reached a level where it's coming to notice. If you are skiing with genuine friends then this of course doesn't apply.

fatbob, Picking and choosing which laws you want to obey and which you don't isn't going to change the law.

I am merely pointing out French law when it comes to the subject of "ski hosts". It is extremely arrogant for companies, or individuals to come to a country and then ignore its laws.

rjs, FYI French school groups work under a different set of regulations within the Education Nationale.

Arno, French law has a principle of "Responsabilité Civile" where the most experienced person in a group owes a duty of care to those less experienced even though the relationship may not be a professional one. For example, as a professional Accompagnateur en Montagne & Climbing Instructor and I go out with friends and there's an accident due to my acts or omissions then I could be found liable. Also: I was out with a French guide as a friend and yet he was compelled to check my climbing harness before we set off for exactly this reason.

There's clearly a market for "ski hosts" - that's clear but that doesn't change any of the above.

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Ski Hosts good bad or just dangerous?

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