 Poster: A snowHead
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So, something else I'm still vague about.
What in terms of profile (shovel, waist, tail width), turning radius, longitudinal flex pattern, torsional flex, length, construction, weight, graphics  are the features that make a good:
Slalom ski
Skier cross ski
Piste carver
GS ski
All mountain ski
Freeride ski
Big mountain ski
Freestyle ski
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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IMWO...
Turn radius (tightest first)
1. Slalom ski
2. Skier cross ski
3. GS ski
4. All mountain ski
5. Freeride ski
6. Freestyle ski
7. Big mountain ski
Stiffness (stiffest first)
1. GS
2. Skier Cross
3. Slalom
4. All mountain ski
5. Freeride ski
6. Freestyle ski
7. Big mountain ski
Length (shortest first)
1. Slalom ski
2. Skier cross ski
3. All mountain ski
4. Freeride ski
5. Freestyle ski
6. GS ski
7. Big mountain ski
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat, respect - i saw slikedges' post and thought "i don't even know where to start"
glad to see you have ignored "piste carver" as a non-category
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I admit, it's a bit unwieldy, I didn't really know where to start either, which is why it's such a woolly question but,
Wear The Fox Hat, thanks, that's a good way of putting it, and I think you've nailed the characteristics most important for handling.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Arno wrote: |
| glad to see you have ignored "piste carver" as a non-category |
I didn;t know where to categorise it - a beginners "piste carver" will be softer, perhaps, than a big mountain ski, whereas a high end one could be stiffer than an all mountain ski.
Also, what I did was consider each one as at the advanced/expert level, so it's not the Salomon Streetracer 8 as a Slalom ski, or the Head iXRC600 as the Skier Cross.
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slikedges, "handling" do you mean when you heave them onto the bus or when you drag them through Luton Airport to the oversize baggage check-in?
Surely "handling" is down to the competence of the "handler" 
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Wear The Fox Hat, i think stiffness is probably the hardest thing to generalise about, particularly when you get out of the race categories. Eg, a supernoodle (if you want to call it a big mountain ski...) is pretty floppy by all accounts. On the other hand, Volkl Explosivs, Dyna Legend Pros and the Stockli big mountain models are by all accounts like GS skis but with 25-30mm extra girth.
I think slikedges may have hit the nail on the head with his reference to "graphics" for some of the categories. The difference between a skier cross and expert on piste carver ski (produced by the same manufacturer) must be pretty minimal
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Arno, I did those three lists very quickly last night, but since no one has argued against their accuracy, then they can't be too far out. Also, it may be pretty close to true that the "stiffness" list could also be labelled "on-piste speed".
Things to note, looking back at it...
1. If you want to go straight down a powder field, and are skidding, rather than carving, then go for a big montain ski. (pretty obvious)
2. If you want to be mainly on piste, with a ski which is short (so easier to control), yet fast and quick turning, then the one to go for is a Skier Cross model. It isn't number 1 in any of the categories, but it is number 2 in all of them
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wear The Fox Hat, SX10 ? 
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Masque, depends what you set the bindings to.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wear The Fox Hat, those are exactly the considerations I had when constructing my "quiver" (of 2 pairs), although I'm minded to give up the skier-x compromise and go for a proper slalom ski when I upgrade my on-piste skis
not criticising your rankings above, btw - just saying the question is a very difficult one to answer
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wear The Fox Hat, You only have to ask the techs at MK what my settings were (the screwdriver turned anti-clockwise). You didn't see me have a pre-release did you? Good grief I was riding a set of Heads in Austria that had the heel binding wound off to zero (not intentional), toes on 4 and I suffered no probs in general sliding. The more I read, learn and experience in this, the more I realise that there's an awful lot of willful ignorance out there.
For example, how has the DIN setting table changed with the development of carving skis. Why would improved technique that puts less stress into the boot/binding interface require a higher DIN setting? Is it just the speed?
Very few of us are downhill racers or will ever go near a slalom run, so why does an arbitrary method of describing our ability define what a DIN release setting should be . . . and THAT's assuming that the bindings you're in are correctly serviced and tested to meet manufacturers requirements.
My comments are based on a very limited, but interested experience so that has to be taken as a caveat.
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Masque, The DIN setting on ski bindings is related to the force acting on the bindings thus height and weight are used along with the length of the boot sole to determin a starting point for the release, the heavier and taller you are the higher your binding setting because you are exerting a greater force on the binding than a shorter lighter person for the same speed and movement, the bigger your feet the lower your setting as longer feet give you more leverage against the binding, that's the basic DIN setting for a cautious skier
If you are a better skier who skis faster steeper slopes you get the setting increased slightly, racers even more so very cautious skiers may have the bindings set to slightly less because they are less likely to pre release bindings by hitting bumps at high speed.
Depending on how I'm skiing my settings could go from 6 to 9 though I tend to use 7
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You know it makes sense.
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| Masque wrote: |
| For example, how has the DIN setting table changed with the development of carving skis. |
The table was adjusted downwards I think in 2001, because ski length was reducing and width was increasing, while the speed was also increasing.
| Masque wrote: |
Why would improved technique that puts less stress into the boot/binding interface require a higher DIN setting? Is it just the speed?
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It's mainly speed, but includes the higher risks wich are involved as well - in terrain parks, etc.
For someone who isn't racing, or doing major jumps/tricks, but spends most of their life on-piste at recreational speeds, then reducing the DIN as technique improves could be seen as beneficial.
(don't forget that there are age breaks on DIN settings too!)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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D G Orf, From anecdotal evidence, you're a 'gentleman or stature' with a long history of ski experience and you tend to use a DIN setting of 7. What would you recommend for a first week beginner?
Wear The Fox Hat, reduced?
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 9-09-05 11:46; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Masque wrote: |
| What would you recommend for a first week beginner? |
Anywhere between about 3 and 8 - you can't answer that question without knowing all the details!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| marc gledhill wrote: |
Arno, rather than a "quiver" approach I went for the one-ski-nearly-does-all approach and got a pair of B2's. I'm happy enough with them, although they seem to get a bad press on here.
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I thought they got a good press here really, one of the most capable all round skis ever, I've got some 
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| marc gledhill wrote: |
Now I'm wondering whether to ditch the B2's for something a bit phatter  |
That's what I ended up doing - bought some Salomon 3Vs, which meant my K2 Axis X Pros were redundant on piste. Sold the K2s, bought Seth Pistols. (Then sold the 3Vs and bought Head iXRC1100SW, which are more practical on piste for me)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, I'd need to know your height, weight and the length of your ski boot sole (not your boot size) and then I could give you an idea
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Wear The Fox Hat, how long did it take to get used to such a wide ski? I tried some Dynastar 8800 at Castleford and struggled like mad on them.
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marc gledhill, if you're now going for a dedicated piste and off piste skis, i'd go for something a bit bigger than a B2 but that's just me. I mean the B2 is something like 78mm underfoot? That's pretty narrow by today's standards. Bigger skis do take a bit of getting used to but I've gone from being a bit cynical about them to "bigger is better" over the last few years. No... sorry... it was a week in La Grave trying to use Atomic R9.22s and keep up with some Swedish rippers that did it
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marc gledhill, just seen your next post. I expect Castleford is too small to enjoy the 8800s. Skis like that need some room
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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marc gledhill, about a day in Utah to get used to them in the lift line. A few turns to get used to them in champagne powder. But it probably took almost a week of skiing on them to get them carving on piste, and that really only happened after I got my boots adjusted.
What I would say is that when I'm on piste, I still need a calendar for the length of time it takes to get from one edge to the other.
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Wear The Fox Hat, thanks, that's helpful. Helping me to decide is indeed part of the reason for my question. I have the B2 too, which serves me well, but want to buy something shorter and stiffer for hard piste days. I was thinking exactly the sort of thing you had/have, the 3v or iXRC1100 of some form, but anyway detuned slalom or skier cross, for exactly the reason you stated.
Arno, what do you have and what are you thinking of buying?
marc gledhill, what've you just bought? (we won't tell)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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slikedges, you need what I got Dynamic VR27 SL.
I would suggest you try to demo. But really, just get it bought, you'll love it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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slikedges, I have (not including skis I am trying to sell):
Atomic SX11 for on piste
Dynastar Legend Pro for any day when there is the remotest possibility that I will be going off
I'm not really looking to replace the SX11s because I only really use them when I'm getting lessons (and they're great skis) these days but if I was, I'd look at the Atomic and Dynastar slalom models first
I am really in the market for a light weight, high performance touring set-up but that's a whole other story...
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Arno, Ahhhh, well, I may have some lightweight B2's.........................
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You know it makes sense.
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Arno, have you looked at SkiTrab or G3s yet?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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marc gledhill, if your DIN had been set right, you would have released from your bindings, and you wouldn't have been hurt! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Alright guys, how about longitudinal flex. How important is the stiffness of the shovel compared to stiffness in the waist or tail? How does it affect the handling of the ski?
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slikedges, Don't forget torsional stiffness too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, it's up there in my first post. It affects how forgiving against how demanding the ski is, but conversely how well it does what it is designed to when performance is demanded. But is there more to it?
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If a ski is recommended as being good for short turns, does this mean that it will be easier for an 'average' skier to make short turns on said ski ? Or is it really only obvious for expert/adv.skiers?
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| slikedges wrote: |
| But is there more to it? |
Yup . . . Us plonkers on top of them
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| erica2004 wrote: |
| If a ski is recommended as being good for short turns, does this mean that it will be easier for an 'average' skier to make short turns on said ski ? Or is it really only obvious for expert/adv.skiers? |
Yes and no. If an "average" skier gets an "expert" ski, then they are going to find it hard work anyway. If an "average" skier gets a ski close to their ability, then yes, they should appreciate the features of the ski.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Masque,
| Quote: |
Yup . . . Us plonkers on top of them
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You speak for yourself
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erica2004, yes, but only if it isn't only the length and profile appropriate for its purpose but also the stiffness appropriate for the level of skier.
What I don't know is how differing stiffness and wideness at each end of the ski affects its handling either for the better or worse. For instance, the B2 is supposed to be soft in the shovel and stiff at the waist and tail. This is supposed to help in moguls and powder but not help the turn in though making it less grabby. A wide and stiff tail can supposedly give you a more powerful carved exit from your turn but surely that means you'd be riding the tail, which can't be good?
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FAQ
, I bought a pair of slalom skis for my introduction to race training on the slopes of Castleford. They're great fun and I can't wait to lig round proper pistes on them. They're also of sufficient dimensions (same as Atomic B5, but with 65mm waist) to be fairly handy for some deeper stuff.
I'm hurt! 