 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm looking for some advice on how to improve my skiing. I think I could classify myself as advanced: I can ski any piste with decent style and control even in difficult snow conditions, can ski short, long, and good carved turns, can the fall line with ok style in moderate bumps, and have done a few days off piste and ski touring. I probably ski about 30% off-piste. I've probably skiied a total of 20-30 weeks over the years, so I'm not enormously experienced. This year I might get to ski 3 weeks, but usually only get one.
I usually get at least a couple of hours of instruction each time I ski, usually from the ESF (often one-to-one, but have also tried a couple of level 4 group lessons). My problem is that I'm not getting a lot of much specific instruction any more: the instructors are almost never critical in any specific way. I usually get something like “now you just need to get more practice in all kinds of snow conditions", or “now it's just about polish, and the better you are the slower it is to improve". This is not intended to criticise the ESF instructors, in fact quite the opposite. I can see that the good ones are clearly skiing at a completely different level to me (as are many people on this forum), and while I don't expect to get to there skiing 2 weeks a year, I would like to get as close as possible. I'm not convinced that all I need is practice, and anyway I'm a bit of a geek when it comes to learning stuff, and reading some of the threads on this excellent forum (for example http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=80081) convinces me that I could progress much faster with the right training than I will do if left to my own devices.
So, any advice on what to try? I'm going to La Plagne next week, and would like to get some instruction while I'm there. I skied with a fantastic off piste guide there last year, had a great time, and gained valuable experience off piste, but there wasn't much in the way of instruction. I could do that again. I also see that the Oxygene ski school runs a Steep and Deep course, which is another possibility.
Any advice gratefully received.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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mb34, my advice would be to identify some individual instructors (or small, high quality ski schools) and stick with them for all your instruction. I'd say an instructor who speaks English as their first language, or to a very high level of fleuency, is important as the level of technical instruction you want is unlikely to be delivered by an instructor who only has 'key' phrases/unfortunate cliches such as "bend your knees more".
Euan Gardiner who works for Oxygene in La Plagne might be a good starting point as that's the resort you are in next.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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mb34, Shoot a load of video while you are there and start analysing it your self. You'll probably already have an idea of what you would like to improve and the video will give you a starting point of reference.
At your level of skiing you will probably need to be specific in your requests to your Instructor and it's likely that you will suffer to some degree from diminishing marginal returns. Bear in mind that the big difference between your Instructors (and some on the forum) is that they will have gone through a race training program to a reasonable level.
The other option is start to consider specific training weeks, say a week of race training, bumps etc. etc.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
mb34
Euan Gardiner who works for Oxygene in La Plagne might be a good starting point as that's the resort you are in next. |
+1
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd say the best bang for your buck now sounds like it would be week long courses targetted at your ability level on Freeride/gates etc i.e. whatever floats your boat. Of course a reality check with a good and honest English speaking instructor won't harm you. There is a point though to the "mileage" suggestions the ESF guys are giving you if they believe your fundamentals are sound.
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mb34, Ski more regularly using the facilities we have in the UK may be a good place to start, regular skiing with good instruction also asfatbob, says maybe some race training.
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fatbob, don't you think a good high level teacher shouldn't have a bundle of exercises to accelerate the improvement process?
mb34, it sounds a little as though you aren't making your objectives clear enough (or you just have recently been unlucky to get less inspiring teachers). This Gardiner chap might be well worth a few hours.
But arrive with 2 or 3 definite goals.
I am afraid I don't get the more practice required bit. Sure that's needed, but I would submit you do need a set of objectives towards which you are actively and consciously practicing.
What, for example, do you find most frustrating about your skiing? Bumps? Ice? Crust? Pulling aerial 360s off little risers?
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mb34, in addition to the suggestions above:
Try a Snoworks course or, as fatbob suggests, try some race training. If you live near a UK slope then try some race training there.
Do a BASI L1 course. They will take your skiing apart and put it back together again. You can do them indoors in the UK in the summer.
I find that trying to ski occasionally in the summer helps my body remember what it's supposed to be doing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
mb34, in addition to the suggestions above:
Try a Snoworks course or, as fatbob suggests, try some race training. If you live near a UK slope then try some race training there.
Do a BASI L1 course. They will take your skiing apart and put it back together again. You can do them indoors in the UK in the summer.
I find that trying to ski occasionally in the summer helps my body remember what it's supposed to be doing. |
good call.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| For instance if there is something a bit messy in your skiing but its more stylistic than fundamentally "wrong" do they spend hours trying to get you to "fix" it? What's more important - overall outcomes or how something is done? |
There is usually a link between outcomes and how something is done, but if something is purely stylistic what's the point in trying to fix a non-problem?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, Agree.
Just responding to the question which I'd really framed by reference to bang for buck. I genuinely believe at some points there is more benefit to time spent skiing with a solid group of people in the right ability (which structured courses provide) than random one on one private tuition.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I genuinely believe at some points there is more benefit to time spent skiing with a solid group of people in the right ability (which structured courses provide) than random one on one private tuition. |
I agree. Private lessons are often recommended on the forum, but in my experience the group lessons I've had have been much more influential on my skiing. As you say, a structured experience led by a high quality instructor, other group members of a similar ability and aptitude and plenty of time to develop and consolidate as the course goes on.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| under a new name wrote: |
rob@rar, I'm just pondering how many purely stylistic "issues" don't reflect a fundamental technical problem?
Anyway, not to worry, I fear I am about to disappear into my own navel.  |
A-framing - is it always bad?
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Poster: A snowHead
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fatbob, Can of worms, can of worms.
Yes, locks your hips in the wrong places.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
| rob@rar, I'm just pondering how many purely stylistic "issues" don't reflect a fundamental technical problem? |
Not many, but I have had some people I've been teaching be overly focused on things they believe are problems but to my eye are extremely trivial. Often it's been "obvious" things like what they do with their arms, rather than the more fundamental things like what they do with their legs.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I may be stating the obvious but you can't teach (anything) without some clear aims and objectives. You need your aims such as "I'd like to be able to ski moguls" and some objectives in order to get there. Either you as the paying pupil can set these or a good instructor/teacher should be able to do this for you. As someone said, there could be diminishing returns on instruction as you get better (I'm talking about anything here not just skiing but any form of learning process / being taught) but my sense is that the better you get at something the more you realise how bad you actually are and how much more there is to learn. This is a good place to be, in my opinion.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| ..the better you get at something the more you realise how bad you actually are and how much more there is to learn. This is a good place to be, in my opinion. |
but ignorance is bliss for many isn't it! Well said johnnyh
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| but my sense is that the better you get at something the more you realise how bad you actually are and how much more there is to learn. This is a good place to be, in my opinion. |
You also start to gain a better understanding of what you are trying to do / are doing, so can take control of your learning.
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mb34, I think a lot of people have had this same experience with ski lessons. I've been in a slightly different position in the past, in that I've been out in a resort for a whole season and have tried to find some kind of program of instruction which I could do over the course of the 4/5 months. I've tried group lessons and private lessons in both Europe and N America and have honestly been pretty dissatisfied with the instruction I've received most of the time.
My experience has been that, once you get up to a decent level, lessons usually involve the instructor 'touring you round the mountain' with occasional wishy-washy technique tips along the way. This might be what some people want, particularly skiers who are in the resort for only a week, but I think it's very poor value for money when you consider that private lessons cost hundreds of pounds per day. What frustrates me is that all these ski instructors go through rigorous training with their ski schools plus all the courses and exams that they have to do to attain their 'levels' and so they must all be familiar with receiving proper technical coaching themselves. Why can't they then pass that on to their clients?
Another thing that drives me mad and which is pretty specific to North America I think, is the 'AWESOME JOB' mentality that is drummed into all the instructors over there. If any PSIA or CSIA instructors are reading this, I did NOT pay you £300 (or something equally as outrageous) for you to tell me that I'm an awesome skier and I just need a little tweak here or there. If I am looking at the instructor and what he is doing is clearly massively better than what I am doing, then I am obviously not doing an awesome job. The reason I am there is firstly to be told honestly what my problems are and secondly how to go about fixing them. And then if I turn up for another lesson a week later I want to know if each of these problems is completely fixed, partially fixed or not fixed at all. Simple, right?
This is a particular 'bee in my bonnet' so I could go on and on about this! It has frustrated me for years! I often compare the ski tuition that I have received with my experience of being a tutor myself in an academic subject (Maths) as opposed to a sport. When I take on a new student who is say a year away from doing GCSE Maths, in the first lesson I find out what level they are currently at and therefore where we should begin working. E.g. if they can't give me the right answer to 4+3x2, I'm not going to start with quadratic equations, it's going to be right back to basics. I would then work out a progression from this starting point which is going to get them up to solving quadratic equations and understanding each step along the way by the time the exam comes. I have never had this kind of approach from a ski instructor, ever!
Anyway, the end result of all this for me is that I have now given up completely on ski lessons. I am still really keen to improve my skiing but am going to try and do so with the aid of friends and a video camera! My advice for anyone else in the same predicament is to do the same. Of course there are great off-piste courses that better skiers can go on with guides/instructors who will push you to up the 'gnar factor' and this is great for improving confidence levels (which is a big part of skiing). But for proper in depth technical instruction, I would say forget it!
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snowprincess, interesting, and not terrible positive, perspective you have on ski lessons. I know there is a lot of "follow-me" type instruction out there, and you're right to say that it is what some people want from their ski school. At the other end of the spectrum I wonder how many people would be happy if they signed up for a week of ski school and lapped around the same two or three short pistes all week doing drill progressions all the time? There are great instructors and great ski schools out there who will be happy to work at a very technical level - you just need to find them, and then maybe stick with them if you are looking for longterm development.
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snowprincess, Good post. I think your experience hints at the difference between Instruction and Coaching.
In a coaching environment there is more time for your coach (instructor or whatever) to work with you personally over a period of time towards your mutually agreed goals. That's hard for an Instructor to achieve during 'spot' lessons.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowprincess, Agree on the "Awesome" thing - I think it's part of the cultural context of "captive" ski schools (i.e. non-independent) that first and foremost demand positive customer experiences and possibly a partial eye towards tips. It's a particular form of psychology that should properly only be employed with the right sort of clients i.e. not with cynical self-critical Brits.
The best lesson format I've found in North America is the "drop-in" lesson pass available in some places where you pay a not outrageous price on top of your season pass and are allowed to join off-peak group lessons as much as you want. As there is no economic pressure to get value for money you can afford to go with the flow, drop out of a lesson if you don't feel you're getting anything useful from it, work out which days instructors you click with are scheduled etc.
I can perfectly understand why many instructors particularly in a group context don't want to work on a super technical level as its a mjor turn-off for a lot of students. I'd suggest that your best chance of finding groups who are of common mind is instructor development.
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Another vote for the earlier recommendation to train as an instructor and do a L1 course (I did the Snowsports England course rather than BASI) at a slope that is local to you, and get lots of practice in the summer. Even if you don't intend to become an instructor, you'll probably enjoy it and it really sorts out the fundamentals of your own skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I am afraid I don't get the more practice required bit.
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Entirely agree. I have done quite a bit of skiing the last few weeks, mostly with friends who are not that good (it's not that I'm terrific, just that they are worse  ) and have been having a lot of fun, some lovely weather and snow, some nice lunches. Yesterday I decided to focus on something (standing centred on my feet, as a matter of fact). I did more of that today. I think the last couple of days have been much more productive in terms of improvement - I've become more aware of tiny adjustments which make a big difference. Tomorrow I'll find something else to focus on, or maybe just have a bit of a hoon around and enjoy the scenery. You do definitely need a focus, but even so there's a limit to how much really accurate feedback you can give yourself. I can't persuade any of my skiing companions that they should take a lesson - I'm going to have to take one on my own, I think.
I have a favourite French instructor - have had some great lessons with him in the powder - but he lacks enough English to give me really detailed feedback and suggestions. In fact, we invariably end up speaking French. I thus get a "free" French lessons and he's a great guy - but not the same as, for example, the lessons we had with Gavin in Tignes, with feedback spot on and precise explanations.
I saw someone having an advanced lesson yesterday. He overtook me, on a red run, skiing on one ski. His instructor then followed closely, with thespare ski over her shoulder.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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if i was you i would get in touch with that instructor.
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snowprincess, I agree in part.
When you reach a certain level of skiing you have to know what do you want to develop and then seek out specific coaching to achieve your objectives. I agree with rob@rar that it is worth sticking with an instructor for long term development(this is why the coaching at insideout skiing is successful - they get see there clients on a regular basis). There is only so much improvement that an advanced skier can achieve in a single 2hr lesson.
I had a group lesson in the states last year with a level 4 instructor which to be honest was not great. The focus was moguls and it was slightly disappointing because he didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know and my OH thought that I skied the bumps a lot better than he did. But the lesson was still a nice change from just doing my own thing and in 2 week holiday we needed that. I already knew before hand that you leave it to chance if you do not know (or have not been recommended) the instructor but I took a chance and it didn't pay off. From then on I planned to only have lessons with instructors who I know can help me to achieve my objectives.
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You know it makes sense.
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I also largely agree snowprincess.
One of the issues with "instruction" is the transactional nature of it - you turn up and expect to be better as a result of that single interaction. It's not an unreasonable expectation in many ways, but when you reach a certain level it becomes unrealistic.
I've got some ski instructor qualifications and am training for the next level up. I invest in 10-12 full days of lessons a year, but in those lessons I have more of a coaching relationship with my instructors than an instructional one. The difference, for me, is that the instructors often have to take things apart in order to fix them - so at the end of any particular day I may be skiing worse than I started. I just have to trust the process. And it is working.
This is why I think instructor training is quite a good route forwards as there's less expectation, all around, that you will be incrementally, transactionally better every day.
I agree with rob@rar's principle about consistency of input, although I personally train with a couple of people because I find that they can explain things differently and in a way that's complimentary.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| the instructors often have to take things apart in order to fix them |
One of the best lessons I ever had was with one of Wozzers boys in Verbier. 1:2 all day, me and a mate who was much better than me. The chap, Rob I think, asked us if we wanted to cruise around with him pointing things out every now and then, or really go for it and deconstruct our technique in the AM and re-build it in the PM. We chose deconstruction/rebuild. Both Rob and my mate said I came off the mountain a completely different skier than when I ascended. This was about 6 years ago and I still use some of the drill today in my everyday skiing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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snowprincess, Great post, great points, awesome job. (Joke). I think you (sadly) hit the nail on the head of many people's experiences.
But I am going to suggest that you might find a day with someone like Thierry Copreau in Morzine or Stefan Skrobar of ID-Freeride (http://www.idfreeride.com if you can track him down) helpful. The last lesson I had was with Stefan - quite extraordinary.
I've done quite a lot of skiing, been race trained, admittedly ski a bit old skool, but would describe myself as tolerably competent. I arrived with two things that I felt I was getting lazy about. Stefan deconstructed our (I was with a mate who has now done about 22 seasons) skiing and then rebuilt it, honing and crafting certain things along the way. Funniest bit was (attempting to) zipline a much loved bumps field without poles.
Took a lot away from the day and like Dr John, there are still drills that I resurrect if I think I'm getting lazy. It wasn't that I changed 99% of my skiing, which I didn't, but that the 1% I did change made 100% of a difference.
Stephan is also completely and hilariously barking mad. Full tilt race skating into an icy wall of black bumps? Why not...
+1 for instructor training perhaps too...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think the big thing here that a lot of coaches (even experienced ones) don't get is different learning styles: visual, kinesthetic, thinkers etc. What works for one student doesn't work for others. I think the only way is to get recommendations for good coahes or if you find a good one then stick with them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Really appreciate you all taking the time to share your thoughts - as I had hoped, there are some insightful and helpful comments and suggestions here. snowprincess made me smile with recognition. It may well be our similar backgrounds too (I'm a physicist by training). But I'm not ready to give up on instruction just yet!
To summarize, there a a few common themes in the comments and suggestions:
1. Have clear objectives, and make sure your instructor is aware of them (AndAnotherThing, under a new name, johnnyh). This is a good point, and is indeed something I'm guilty of failing to do. In my defence, that's partly because I don't really know what my weaknesses are (see the contrast with tennis below), and I really want the instructor to analyse my skiing and tell me.
2. Find a good, preferably English-speaking, instructor and stick with them (rob@rar). This one made me think. My first reaction was that I haven't found anyone I would want to stick with. But on second thoughts that's not true – one or two have been a cut above the others in desire to actually teach (Eric Arnol at Les Deux Alpes ESF was probably the best of the last few years, although I am not sure how good his English is - my French is pretty good, so I joined a French only group). I've never really thought about going back to a resort because of an instructor, but maybe I should. And maybe just doing a one-off two-hour lesson doesn't really give an instructor the incentive to actually work on making a student progress.
3. Use video (snowprincess, AndAnotherThing). This is a great tip, and one I'm aware of because it has been invaluable for tennis, where I have been surprised at the lack of correspondence between what I think I'm doing and what I'm actually doing! I'll try and do this more – my family generally take the p*ss if I ask them to video me, and seem unable to hold a camera steady anyway  The combination of technical coaching and video is very powerful and I am surprised that so few coaches use it (in tennis anyway). The problem with video alone is that you may not recognize or correctly prioritize your faults, or be able to diagnose the cure. It's powerful as an aid to coaching because no matter how much you trust your coach when they tell you are, or are not, doing something, until you see it yourself it can be hard to correct. My forehand epiphany came comparing a video of myself to top pros - it took 10 seconds to understand what hours of coaching couldn't get across. I haven't completely fixed it yet, but I know exactly what I need to do in a way I don't with skiing.
4. Race or instructor training, including in the UK (AndAntoherThing, fatbob, FlyingStantoni, kieranm). This (race/instructor) was something I had been thinking about, but wasn't sure if it was a good idea. But I will definitely try this now. If I can find a race school next week I'll give it a go - I guess that means ESF, right? How physically demanding is it?
I had never really thought about trying to improve my skiing in the UK - I had assumed the fridges were just good for beginners to get a few lessons out of the way before 'real' snow. I am in North London, and so not far from Hemel, and I love the idea that I could ski during the summer too! Does anyone know how I can find out more?
5. Euan Gardiner at La Plagne (rob@rar, SteveAngus). I will definitely book some time with you and next week, especially if there is no all-day race school. It seems that oxygen are not running their steep and the course next week, so that option has gone now. However, I checked that Euan is around – thanks for the recommendation.
Thanks again everyone - I'll let you know how I get on next week!
Anyone in La Plagne then, BTW? (Given what I'm paying to the week and my conversation with Oxygene, it looks like the answer is 'no'!)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| mb34 wrote: |
| ... I had assumed the fridges were just good for beginners to get a few lessons out of the way before 'real' snow. I am in North London, and so not far from Hemel, and I love the idea that I could ski during the summer too! Does anyone know how I can find out more? |
One option my be the Performance Clinics run by Inside Out Skiing (for a declaration of interest please see my sig ), or race training with the Hemel Race Club or with Impulse Racing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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mb34, if you're in North London then get thee to Hemel and do some stuff with www.insideoutskiing.co.uk (one half of which is rob@rar).
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mb34,
email/phone ESF at La Plagne and ask if Jackie is running any race training groups. Jackie should be running some eurotest groups next week so the standard will be high and he will sort out your skiing. Expect full days with a break for lunch. French lunch so 3/4 courses and a bottle of wine
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The following is all IMHO of course .
| snowprincess wrote: |
| mb34, I think a lot of people have had this same experience with ski lessons. I've been in a slightly different position in the past, in that I've been out in a resort for a whole season and have tried to find some kind of program of instruction which I could do over the course of the 4/5 months. I've tried group lessons and private lessons in both Europe and N America and have honestly been pretty dissatisfied with the instruction I've received most of the time. |
| snowprincess wrote: |
My experience has been that, once you get up to a decent level, lessons usually involve the instructor 'touring you round the mountain' with occasional wishy-washy technique tips along the way. This might be what some people want, particularly skiers who are in the resort for only a week, but I think it's very poor value for money when you consider that private lessons cost hundreds of pounds per day. What frustrates me is that all these ski instructors go through rigorous training with their ski schools plus all the courses and exams that they have to do to attain their 'levels' and so they must all be familiar with receiving proper technical coaching themselves. Why can't they then pass that on to their clients?
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You may enjoy ski instructor courses, however it is drummed into you that you aren't going to be spoon fed constant feedback. At a certain level you have to be self aware and responsible for your own training. Adjustments can be quite subtle and not obvious to someone watching.
| snowprincess wrote: |
Another thing that drives me mad and which is pretty specific to North America I think, is the 'AWESOME JOB' mentality that is drummed into all the instructors over there. If any PSIA or CSIA instructors are reading this, I did NOT pay you £300 (or something equally as outrageous) for you to tell me that I'm an awesome skier and I just need a little tweak here or there. If I am looking at the instructor and what he is doing is clearly massively better than what I am doing, then I am obviously not doing an awesome job. |
I'm sure if you told them your expectations for the amount of abuse expected they would be happy to oblige  . If the instructor is massively better it is undoubtedly because they have had more practice, don't beat yourself up about it.
| snowprincess wrote: |
The reason I am there is firstly to be told honestly what my problems are and secondly how to go about fixing them. And then if I turn up for another lesson a week later I want to know if each of these problems is completely fixed, partially fixed or not fixed at all. Simple, right?
This is a particular 'bee in my bonnet' so I could go on and on about this! It has frustrated me for years! I often compare the ski tuition that I have received with my experience of being a tutor myself in an academic subject (Maths) as opposed to a sport. When I take on a new student who is say a year away from doing GCSE Maths, in the first lesson I find out what level they are currently at and therefore where we should begin working. E.g. if they can't give me the right answer to 4+3x2, I'm not going to start with quadratic equations, it's going to be right back to basics. I would then work out a progression from this starting point which is going to get them up to solving quadratic equations and understanding each step along the way by the time the exam comes. I have never had this kind of approach from a ski instructor, ever!
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Thank god , but if you want that you need to ask for it. The 'knowledge' or skills are very simple, it just takes a lifetime of refinement. Think about children learning to ski, they progress faster than adults and no-one explains the bio-mechanics to them. Probably precisely because no-one explains the bio-mechanics to them!
| snowprincess wrote: |
Anyway, the end result of all this for me is that I have now given up completely on ski lessons. I am still really keen to improve my skiing but am going to try and do so with the aid of friends and a video camera! My advice for anyone else in the same predicament is to do the same. Of course there are great off-piste courses that better skiers can go on with guides/instructors who will push you to up the 'gnar factor' and this is great for improving confidence levels (which is a big part of skiing). But for proper in depth technical instruction, I would say forget it! |
In depth technical instruction - nooo that won't help
Video is good but be careful with being over critical with yourself. You can't solve skiing like a mathematical problem. You can only hope to be more successful in a wider variety of conditions. Enjoy the process.
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stewart woodward just checked, no race camps next week apparently  , but thanks for the tip. Will try again at some point. And Oxygene aren't running steep and deep either - like I said, sounds like there is no-one there next week! So I'm going to see what the standard is like in their level 4 group, and try some private lessons with Euan. I'll do some ski touring with a guided group if I get bored. Will definitely check up with rob@rar and maybe Hemel racing club when I get back.
Thanks all.
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