I think it's a good question. I don't know the answer though..
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
PsychoBabble, it means "keep turning for a bit longer than you are".
Many skiers / boarders find that once they've move from turn-traverse-turn-traverse to linked turns then they gradually pick up speed as they travel down the slope. This is because they the speed at which the exit the turn is slightly more than the speed at which they entered it - often because they are over-anxious to start the next turn.
Speed incrementally builds up until they feel out of control.
There are two ways to know whether you're "finishing your turns":
- can you ski any length of slope you like without having to stop or "scrub off" speed by doing a semi-hockey stop?
- is each turn an equal distance down the slope - or does the distance between turns gradually increase?
As you turn, keep steering the skis around the arc / back "up" the hill for a "tad" longer.
- is each turn an equal distance down the slope - or does the distance between turns gradually increase?
good question. I was trying to do short radius turns today, down a section of the piste. OK for a while, then definitely getting longer and faster when the piste got a bit steeper (was an ordinary sort of red). Wasn't a problem - didn't have to scrub off speed - quite happy to go faster, far easier, but it absolutely wasn't what I'd told myself I was going to do!!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
In an ideal world your turns on piste would leave two clean curved tracks in the snow. From the start of the turn the pressure and edge angle of the ski gtradually builds up, the ski bends more and more. Then the skiier reduces the pressure on the ski in a controlled fashion until the turn finishes and the skis are flat again with very little pressure. Not finishing the turn generally means the pressure is not taken away from the skis in a controlled manor and the skis skid as opposed to leaving a clean arc in the final 50% of the turn. The turns are often rushed and not gradually formed. Instead of curved S turns, skided Z turns are often experienced.
I'm going to disagree with the Z versus S explanation DB, although it's a problem that most intermediates also have and important to fix.
Z versus S turns is about how progressively you turn the skis across the fall line. Finishing the turn is about how long you keep turning.
Whilst the Ski School App claims a linkage, his demo of Z turns moves the same distance down the slope as his S turns.
The demo at 1:05 is a really good example of continuing to steer to "finish the turn" though.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
There's no way I could carve short radius turns on the pistes I was doing the short radius turns on today. I was quite strongly steering the skis - no chance otherwise - but I still couldn't keep the rhythm going right. I think I wasn't being energetic enough.
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After all it is free
I like his Arcteryx hat and POC gloves. Must look in the shop on Saturday.
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FlyingStantoni wrote:
I'm going to disagree with the Z versus S explanation DB, although it's a problem that most intermediates also have and important to fix.
Z versus S turns is about how progressively you turn the skis across the fall line. Finishing the turn is about how long you keep turning.
Whilst the Ski School App claims a linkage, his demo of Z turns moves the same distance down the slope as his S turns.
The demo at 1:05 is a really good example of continuing to steer to "finish the turn" though.
Yes fair enough I hear what you are saying and technically you are correct. If someone isn't finishing their carved turn and picking up speed that can also be a problem, esp. in short turns.
However, I suspect most learners don't finish their turns because they are skiing Z's. If you are in a skid it's very difficult to finish the turn in a carve esp. for a learner. Basically as a learner you've got to get into the carve and stay with it before you get a chance to finish it properly.
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Sorry DB, I'm going to disagree with you again.
Whether of not someone is "carving", and how much edge is involved in the turn, is completely separate from the shape of the turn in terms of speed control.
You can skid a turn and be in control through your turn shape. You can carve clean lines and be in control through your turn shape. You can do something in between. You can have completely flat skis and be in control through your turn shape.
You can't carve if you can't do S-shaped turns. And you won't be able to carve many turns if you don't finish your turns properly.
But you can ski all day and not carve once.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
under a new name wrote:
I like his Arcteryx hat and POC gloves. Must look in the shop on Saturday.
Personally I think you need a hat that shows more of your personality. Lime green is what I'd recommend
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And DB, I'm not trying to be argumentative here.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
and you can do finished, S-shaped, snow-plough turns, non?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w wrote:
and you can do finished, S-shaped, snow-plough turns, non?
Yep.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I went over 'finishing the turn' in my last lesson. From what i understood it was the movement of flattening both skis at the end of the turn instead of remaining on ski edges until the last possible moment before you initiate the next turn and roll over on the the opposite edge... if that makes sense??
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
tomb wrote:
I went over 'finishing the turn' in my last lesson. From what i understood it was the movement of flattening both skis at the end of the turn instead of remaining on ski edges until the last possible moment before you initiate the next turn and roll over on the the opposite edge... if that makes sense??
Sorry tomb, but you're mistaken. What you're talking about is turn transition.
You should always start a new turn by flattening your skis.
But you should only start a new turn when you've slowed down to the speed you started the turn at.
Finish one turn. Transition. Gradually and progressively steer / edge the skis.
And repeat.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
point taken but is that strictly true though?? Do you always need to exit a turn at the same speed you entered? What if you want to speed up or slow down?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
How is this applied to short radius turns? Do the same rules apply?
point taken but is that strictly true though?? Do you always need to exit a turn at the same speed you entered? What if you want to speed up or slow down?
Good point, well made.
Yes, you can choose to speed up or slow down.
The point is that it's all about being in control of the length of the arc you are skiing and choosing the appropriate time to start the new turn.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Feast wrote:
How is this applied to short radius turns? Do the same rules apply?
Yes.
If you aren't finishing your turns then short turns will show up the problem pretty quickly.
There's no such thing as a perfect carved turn but turns that are circa 97.62843 % there I would consider this to be called carving.
As you say you can skid turn your skis all day - I'd call this Skarving as there's an element of skidding and carving together
When there's no carving element I'd call this side skiding and this is how many new learner skiers take speed out of their turns. Edge angle plays a role here.
On the Z-turns in the video if he stayed in the "turn" longer wouldn't he just end in in such a skid and come to a stop? As I see it such learners can't finish their turns (stay in the turn for longer) or they would just come to a complete stop every turn. What I am suggesting is that if they had a more gradual carving element throughout the whole turn it would be possible to finish their turns without stopping.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 12-01-12 22:39; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
quickly and get onto the next one.
After all it is free
After all it is free
FlyingStantoni wrote:
You should always start a new turn by flattening your skis.
Even when you are just snowploughing?
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DB wrote:
FlyingStantoni wrote:
You should always start a new turn by flattening your skis.
Even when you are just snowploughing?
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Feast, He started it.
In fact the more I think about it there's absolutely nothing wrong with those Z turns. They are just a series of very long traverses held together by a series of very short skarved turns which are exited (finished) at just the right time to keep him going and maintain a constant terminal speed from each turn to the next.
...... and he gets his skis flat at the end of each turn too.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
DB wrote:
On the Z-turns in the video if he stayed in the "turn" longer wouldn't he just end in in such a skid and come to a stop? As I see it such learners can't finish their turns (stay in the turn for longer) or they would just come to a complete stop every turn. What I am suggesting is that if they had a more gradual carving element it would be possible to finish their turns.
No.
You appear to be using "carving" as a way of saying using your edges. That's fine, but not relevant to the OP.
In skiing (and boarding) we ski a series of connected arcs. The amount of time you ski around the arc is one of the ways in which we control our speed. "Finishing your turn" is about not releasing that arc (consistently) prematurely so that you continuously, incrementally build speed.
Using your edges is one of the other ways you can control your speed. But it's not the only other way. There are others.
But that's not what is being asked here.
And there is such a thing as a perfectly carved turn. Fastman (who hasn't been around for a while) has a really nice explanation in his videos that the sidecut radius of the ski is the longest radius you can pure carve. Ron le Master (whose book I don't have to hand) has a lovely explanation of how edge angle affects the radius you can carve, but it's something like that at a 50% edge angle you can carve a radius of 40% of the sidecut radius.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
If you aren't finishing your turns then short turns will show up the problem pretty quickly.
Exactly my problem today. Keeping a slow rhythm of short radius turns down a steep slope is one of my goals; instructors make it lose so easy!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
DB wrote:
Feast, He started it.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Ain't nothing wrong with a good snowplough
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
FlyingStantoni wrote:
You should always start a new turn by flattening your skis.
In a lesson last month with a BASI Trainer, he asked us to describe how we started a turn. I suggested that I "flattened my skis" and he looked at me like I'd just suggested the most old school bull that he'd ever heard.
Oh, and it was definitely the best ski lesson I've ever had
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
FlyingStantoni,
Yes we have agreed that staying in the turn means finishing the turn.
You appear to be saying they should just stay in the turn longer and everything will be allright whereas I am saying make the arc present for longer in the turn (the traverse shorter) and then you can finish the turn without flying out of the arc sideways to a stop or crash.
Is Fastman's perfectly carved turn only theorectical or is it actually achievable?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Wags wrote:
Oh, and it was definitely the best ski lesson I've ever had
That's great Wags and I'm glad you enjoyed it.
We could do a game of "trade a BASI Trainer. But I'm not going to.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Slightly different approach to a definition:
You finish the turn when you have completed sufficient arc length to feel a build up of force and have made the range of flexion that you want to use before beginning the next turn. This will enable you control your speed as much as you want, and crucially will set you up for the next turn.
Yes we have agreed that staying in the turn means finishing the turn.
You appear to be saying they should just stay in the turn longer and everything will be allright whereas I am saying make the arc present for longer in the turn (the traverse shorter) and then you can finish the turn without flying out of the arc sideways to a stop or crash.
Is Fastman's perfectly carved turn only theorectical or is it actually achievable?
I think we're trying to say the same thing.
I'm not saying that you just point the skis in a direction and stand on them aimlessly. I'm saying that you should be continuously turning your skis around an arc (and hence "up the hill") - be that by steering (and hence skidding) or by being on edge (and hence carving) or some combination of the two.
A perfectly carved turn is eminently possible. Point your skis downhill, stand on your edges and do nothing and you'll do a perfect carve.
The tricky bit is linking them and controlling the turn shaped whilst still carving. And it's eminently possible.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
FlyingStantoni, Ok, but everybody on the PSB that I spoke to also thought that the lesson with this guy was the best they'd ever had!
Why would you want to make any traverse? Kills the flow, makes the start of each turn difficult and lifeless.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
It has to do with turn shape. If an instructor asks you to "complete your turns" he's saying your turns are on the low degree side (example: 30 degrees), and he'd like you to make them a higher degree (example: 90 degrees)
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar wrote:
You finish the turn when you have completed sufficient arc length to feel a build up of force and have made the range of flexion that you want to use before beginning the next turn. This will enable you control your speed as much as you want, and crucially will set you up for the next turn.
Having spent a reasonable chuck of Sunday with Mo, I'd modify that idea to:
"Having completed sufficient arc length to be (fore-aft and laterally) re-centered at turn transition."
Being "a bit geeky" for a moment, I'd argue that there should never be a build up in force as you should be aiming to maintain constant pressure through the snow at all times.
But we're starting to cross over (or under) (very, very geeky joke there) into ski-geekdom...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I have to say that its great to have guys like FlyingStantoni, ro@rar and Fastman posting on here. (and the others whose names I can't remember) Valuable information given free of charge. Thanks guys
Mike
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 12-01-12 23:24; edited 1 time in total
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FastMan, surely a short arc turn can be "finished"? There's no absolute answer to finishing a turn that you can measure in degrees. For me it;s whether you have finished the process of one turn and use that to link seamlessly in to the next turn. If you haven't adequately controlled your speed or if you haven't adequately completed your movements your turn isn't finished, even if you're pointing back up the hill.
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Poster: A snowHead
