Off Piste Itinerary Routes

A snowHead

Off to Courmayeur at the weekend and I note they have off piste itinerary routes marked on the map in the same way as St Anton and Verbier (dashed lines).

What are people's opinions of the status of these routes? I have done some of the ones in both Verbier and St Anton without a guide and without full avi kit as do many people in these resorts. They are usually marked with red diamond markers.

I appreciate that they are not pisted but do they have any special status in resort re insurance cover etc?

A snowHead

Insurance is a such a minefield right now it'd be impossible to know without checking the individual policy. Who are you insured with?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

my understanding of the verbier ones is that they are controlled for safety (ie only declared open when the access and avalanche risk is believed to be acceptable) but not groomed or patrolled. Having said that, one of the major itineraries (mont gele) was opened for the first time this season on boxing day and around 11 am a family of 4 was avalanched (all OK fortunately). So, there are no guarantees...

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Tiger2, This is something I am also interested in as I seem to recall that different resorts take a different position on these routes. A piste will be pisted, patrolled and made avalanche-safe if it is open (although sometimes some resorts keep particular pistes "unpisted"). Clearly, these itinerary routes are not pisted. On my recent trip to Zermatt there were notices indicating that they were not patrolled, but I was lead to believe that they were made avalanche-safe. However, when I was in Davos I remember a particular itinerary had a free-ride beacon self-checker just next to it - suggesting that maybe it was not made avalanche-safe.
Would be really helpful to have definitive guidance on whether you need transceivers etc to use these in any given resort.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

My understanding is that itinerary routes are patrolled but not pisted.

If they are open I would assume they are as safe as a piste to ski/board on. They are just a different type of snow experience - fresh or chopped up snow as opposed to groomed piste.

If they are officially open, then I wouldn't think you'd have a problem with insurance.

The only ambiguity I can think of, as the marker posts are a single line of posts which mark the centre of route rather than the edge of a route, is how far away from the route markers you can be and still deemed to be on the particular itinerary?

Best checking with your insurer.

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Layne I appreciate that. I'm insured with DogTag so I'll check the wording.

But I was more interested in DCG's take as to are bleepers necessary (I'm sure they are advised) and while I think they are unpatrolled are they avi checked (although I also acknowledge that nothing is ever "safe").

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Tiger2, well as I mentioned on another thread there is off piste and there is off piste. The former being at the safe end of the scale and the latter at the potentially unsafe end. Clearly an itenary is a well defined route and assuming open deemed "safe" by patrol. So definitely in the former category. Personally, and folks can flame me if you want I've skied plenty of "safe" off piste without kit. I don't wear a helmet either. Go figure.

I remember a buddy of mine a few years back suggesting that people should wear a bleeper even when they are in the ski station/village. This was after one such place was avalanched. I think there have been a few such incidents. I've certainly seen a couple of avas spill onto the piste. When we drove back recently there was an ava on the N90 to Bourg St Maurice IIRC. What I am driving at is, if you've got ava kit, really you should just stick it on whatever the conditions or your intentions leaving the chalet/apartment. If you don't have the kit then really it can only be a personal decision how far you take the risks. Personally I wouldn't hesitate to do an itenary without kit.

After all it is free

I think it depends on the resort as to what constitutes an "itinerary".

E.g. In Espace Kiily last year itineraries marked on the map (called "naturide") were effectively the same as black pistes, except they were never pisted, ever. They were patrolled in the same way, even had the hazards, such as the many rocks poking through the snow, marked with crossed piste marker poles. Both sides of the "piste" were clearly marked as with a regular pisted run.

I've not been to Verbier but my understanding is that the itineraries there are totally different. They aren't patrolled runs at all. Just simply some poles marking the route so you don't get lost, no avalanche control, no marking of hazards etc. So they are off piste and the only piece of equipment you can do away with is the topo map. I understand it as, they may close the lift access if the avalanche risk get too high but don't do any blasting etc to secure slope as they would do with a piste so you still need to treat it as off piste.

Looking at the Courmayer piste map they are called "Off piste itineraries" which would suggest they are more suggested off piste routes rather than safe "pistes without the bashing" and I'd guess for insurance purposes they would be considered off piste.

Layne, given the majority of avalanches that kill skiers are ones they trigger themselves that's why it's sensible to carry avi kit in that situation. Rare events such as being avalanched in a town or on a road are very unlikely to be self-triggered so it makes much less sense to be equipped in those circumstances. Far more important traveling in this sort of terrain is being able to judge the risk of an avalanche occurring on any given slope though. For the most part itinerary routes may be avalanche controlled and may only be officially opened when deemed safe but that doesn't mean the slopes themselves at any given time are actually safe. As gra points out with an example, you can still get avalanched on them.

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Tiger2, et al,
I'm probably in the same boat as you - have skied/ridden plenty of 'non pisted' bits, both in & outside resort.

Your question has two components: safety, and insurance.
WRT insurance, I would take the view that unless you are skiing on a marked PISTE (where piste means it is coloured red-black, is patrolled, and 'blasted'), you are 'off-piste' as far as your insurance co is concerned. It is then up to you to decide what to do about that risk (ranging from 'ignore' to 'insure') [double blacks in North America are a different category depending on resort - some seem to be unbashed pistes, some are 'back country' but patrolled....]

It is very easy to access 'off piste' in St Anton (and other resorts).... just 'cos there are tracks, or that you can see the piste, doesn't make it a piste!!

WRT safety - if you're not on the piste, it's up to you to judge how safe you think it is, and whether you need arva gear. If you're taking a 'shortcut' under a chairlift, down thro' the trees, you' may be ok. If you've hiked up from the top of a chair to get to a coulouir, you're probably not. (note, I cite these as two fictional examples - clearly, in reality, you will need to judge for yourself)

As far as 'itineraries' go, the level of implied ava control varies from country to country, and possibly resort to resort. The resort map (or pisteurs) should be consulted if you're not clear. (the presence of beeper checkers does not indicate the condition of the run - they have them at the top of one of the runs in Tigne.... but there is also accessible back-country nearby, so I assume it is risk mitigation / awareness on the part of the authorities - and good for them!)
As Gra says, itineraries are not necessarily safe, even if (and I don't know for sure) if they are implicitly protected.

The likelihood of needing your arva kit is driven much more by the prevailing conditions, than whether it's an itinerary or not...

enjoy
h.

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Having been in St Anton last week and asked everybody I could find:

There they are avi controlled within 5 metres of the diamond posts.
They are not patrolled - though they are certainly often groomed. (!?!)

The Arlberg ski school makes its instructors wear avi kit when skiing them, but not its pupils.

I wouldn't do them without off piste insurance cover though. (And at £12 for a week through direct-travel it seems silly to economise.)

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You know it makes sense.

abc, Seems that would expose the ski school to liability: if they think it's dangerous enough to require their instructors to wear the kit but they don't impose the same conditions on clients then surely they would be in big trouble in the event of a fatality.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Unless there is someone else wearing avi gear, with the knowledge of how to use it, then there would be no reason for the instructor(singular) to have beeps. Maybe just to make the patrols job easier to find the body. Confused

A snowHead

meh, the point really was to emphasis to the OP that the wearing of a bleeper all comes down to your judgement of when it is "worth it". And that arguably that could be whenever you set foot out the door, or it could be only when you are doing some serious off piste. It doesn't surprise me that avalanche can hit an itenary run but then it doesn't surprise me when it hits a normal piste.
Did the family on the itenary trigger the avalanche?

A snowHead

not clear from the reports how it was triggered but seems they were the likely ones http://www.verbinet.com/reports/news/mont-gele-avalanche-hits-family.html

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

not clear from the reports how it was triggered but seems they were the likely ones http://www.verbinet.com/reports/news/mont-gele-avalanche-hits-family.html

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gra, impossible to tell from the report. Interestingly the report describes them as skiing off-piste. Looks like the authorities called that one wrong though as they blasted after the avalanche.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

clarky999, Thanks, that's helpful. Is it right to conclude from this that whereas Zermatt and St Anton appear to make itineraries avvy safe, Verbier does not?

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The wording on the Verbier piste map is clear

“Marked, not maintained, not controlled, intended for experienced users”

In reality Televerbier do avalanche control, and frequently bomb, all of the marked itineraries (as well as certain accessible off piste areas).
If they didn't do this control work then it would be complete carnage. Additionally if the avalanche risk gets high then itinerary routes such as Vallon D'Arby / Tortin / Gentianes are closed - often for days on end.

However... it is nearly impossible to make such huge areas completely 'avalanche safe' for the masses.
Plus Televerbier is very proud of their reputation as resort for off piste & freeride skiing.

IMHO you would be very unlucky to get avalanched on a marked itinerary route - but it does very occasionally happen.
The biggest risk is reckless skiers from above cutting avalanches into the marked itinerary route below (for example Mt Gele into Tortin etc).

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There is also the view that an instructor is exposed to danger every day of the season, whereas a client is only exposed for a day or a few days at a time. The instructor therefore has much higher odds of being avalanched and his/her own sense of risk perception may make it imperative to wear all the gear every day.

Yes, I am aware that "clients" in the general sense are exposed to risk every day, even if individual clients have shorter exposures, therefore it makes no difference to the ski school's risk of having clients involved in an incident. It does make a difference to each individual client though!

Oh, and a personal view of itinerary routes:

If there is substantial fresh snowfall, the route will be automatically closed due to avalanche risk (local itineraries here will never, as a matter of policy, be officially open until the risk drops to 2).

By the time it is "officially" open, it will have been skied to death by people who think they know better or who just don't know/care about the risks.

Therefore, if you want to ski it in good condition, you have no choice but to do so when it is officially closed.

Therefore, itinerary routes are a great way to encourage people to take unnecessary risks and to invalidate their insurance by "skiing runs against local advice".

If it was left as a proper off-piste (i.e. unmarked) run then people would be free to make their own decisions and would be less likely upset their insurer.

You know it makes sense.

I'm very interested in this subject as well. From my experience, and from details in this thread I deduce:-

-Itineries may or may not be patrolled
-They may or may not be avi protected
-They may or may not be pisted, in whole or in part
-Ways of marking the itineries vary from country to country and resort to resort
-Resort descriptions of how they treat itineries may vary from what happens in practise.

So that's nice and clear then.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

^ yip.
Though reckless folk on Mt Gele could still cut avalanches into Tortin below...
Same goes for Vallon D'Arby (look above your head on the traverse!).

Personally I think itinerary runs are good thing.
Much better option than blandly piste bashing the whole mountain into one boring groomer ?
However at end of the day if you want to ski fresh snow / powder there will always be some kind of avalanche risk ?
The ski patrol try to make itinerary's as safe as possible - however it is an unrealistic expectation that such routes will ever be 'completely safe'.

A snowHead

meh,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The Italian attitude to off-piste is somewhat different from the French/Swiss

Have skied the off-piste routes in Courmayeur and Gressoney extensively. With the exception of one run in Gressoney, they were never marked and you would not see the mountain patrol setting off avalanches to make them safe. Depends where you go in Courmayeur, but I would advise to hire a guide if you have never been off-piste in the true meaning of the word. If you decide to go up Heilbronner without a guide, then you are mad and will confirm Darwin's theory NehNeh

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gra, Actually Mt Gele opened on Christmas day. I was on the first lift of the season. snowHead

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

And the family in question were not on either of the marked itineraries but were skiing the North face into lacs des vaux.

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cheburator,

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Aiguille du Midi, Hellbroner, La Grave = off piste (no / few sign posts & no avalanche control)
Verbier, Zermatt, St Anton = marked itinerary (some sign posts & some avalanche control work).

For sure there is a difference between each of the above scenarios.
However the common factor is that they are all OFF PISTE.
So you then need to make some kind of decision / risk assessment about the prevalent conditions.
Even if say Tortin (Verbier) is often much safer than say, Vallee Blanche (Chamonix).

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Off Piste Itinerary Routes

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