 Poster: A snowHead
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OK, I know this is a 'how long is a peice of string question' but in general terms can you please explain how much more difficult an average black piste is to an average red piste? For some reason I have never skiied a black run and feel that I need to give it a try on this trip. I can ski pretty much any red without problem (I've only faced one red I really didn't enjoy and that was mainly due to the fact it was just pure ice so feel I need to try some blacks this time but just wondered what the main differences are likley to be and if they are going to be much, much harder than I am used to.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'll be skiing on La Plagne and I realise there aren't too many black runs (although we have an area pass including Les Arcs.)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I find it extremely subjective. I've skied some reds that could very easily be categorised as blacks and vice versa. As you mentioned, a lot of the problems are caused by the condition of the piste on that day. If slopes are generally icy, I'd avoid it, because you could end up taking a tumble right back to the lift station.
Never been to La Plagne / Les Arcs so I couldn't recommend a "beginner black".. but I'm sure someone here will be able to point you in the right direction.
EDIT: I think my first statement could be a little bit misleading. SOME black runs can really test you. We (stupidly) ignored a "closed" barrier on the bellecombes black piste in L2A. My mate fell at the top of the piste and literally slid all the way to the bottom. They can be unforgiving.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 16-12-11 10:58; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You know the difference between a blue and red, yeah? Same thing with red vs. black really.
Most are a 'stiff red'. Some are admittedly utter barsturds, depending on conditions. How are you with moguls, for example?
Are you going in a group where another member is of the 'go anywhere without batting an eyelid' variety? If so ask them to do a recce for you. In any resort of a reasonable size (say, 150km and upwards) there will be a range of black runs from the 'that should have been a red' variety to the 'wish I wasn't on this' variety.
In any case, if you can ski reds all over the place, then the absolute worst thing that will happen to you on a European black run is that you'll 'get down' it, rather than enjoy yourself.
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Thanks Paulio and Leeds. I'm fine on Moguls (I think) but just going with my girlfriend who won't be skiing any blacks. I'm having lessons though so will try and convince the instructor to take us down a few runs. If I meet some other people in the hotel I might tag along as well.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's mostly a psychological thing I think. I would say that most red run skiers have the chops to get down a black, and even get down most of them quite well. But that lingering 'experts only' doubt remains.
I'm sure someone BASI qualified will be along in a minute to tell me I'm full of shit though. I don't want you to get hurt, obviously. But I personally found that I spent the first few weeks in genuine terror of the notion of a red slope. One day, out of nowhere, and not as a particularly capable skier it must be said, I grew a set of knackers and decided to have a go. "What was all the fuss about" was my overriding impression. That was the last run of the holiday, annoyingly, so I had to wait another year to see if it was a fluke or not. It wasn't, and during that week I chucked myself down a black and had the same epiphany. "Not all that hard compared to what I imagined. Challenging and fun rather than impossible and terrifying"
Although it must be said, there have been a few that I've bottled even as I've improved. And I still would probably baulk at - say - Le Tunnel or the very top of Mont Fort.
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I would recommend grand col in Les arcs - you can have a look at it from the parallel red that is served by the same chair - it is high and north facing so snow is usually good - and wide. But I would rerally recommend an instructor - esp a private lesson - if he/she thinks you can do it they'll take you to the most suitable one! Its one of those if you have to ask, then you need some proper help type quetions in my view!
If you like it La Plagne has really good blacks off the back of the Becoin lift above Aime - but these are lower and more remote
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snow conditions can easily make a red run a black run and vice-versa.
forget the piste map colours (or use them as subtle guidance). ski what you enjoy and push yourself as much as you want to.
don't feel that you have to ski something just because of its colour on a map - that's when accidents happen.
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Find a shortish one with another run from the same starting point and have a look. That way you can always go and do the other one if you decide you don't like the look of it, normally there's plenty of pistes like this around.
As has been said it depends entirely on conditions, if you can ski any red then you won't struggle with most blacks in decent snow. They can be miserable with crap snow cover though. Found that out the hard way trying to ski épaule de charvet at Val d'Isère on the first day they opened it when it was just moguls and grass... 
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Thanks - might be a good idea to have a private lesson one afternoon to try a few black runs out. I guess that way If I'm really struggling they can show me the easiest way down (and take me on the easiest runs as well.) Paulio, I know what you mean about progressing. I'm sure I'll find blacks fine as I was skiing red runs on my first ever skiing holiday but just avoided black runs. Black runs have always been a mental block as I have always felt they were for 'experts' only. Time to grow a pair an give it a whirl. I guess my mental block comes from lots of sporting injuries (dislocating my left shoulder 8 times) and the fear of ending up on a blood wagon. The last time I got really cocky skiing I broke my colarbone but it was completly my fault and was due to stupidity/conditions and not difficulty of the piste. I've grown a little more mature since then!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Damn, I had planned on regaling my girlfriend with my near death experience of the "sheer drop, icy, mogul covered death run" 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Baron101, I'm just playing around, I guess the piercing noise of a loud English voice from across the bar has worn me down to the point where I can't take it any more. 
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Jakejenks, No worries! I can imagine the sloany tales of daring do can get a bit boring after a while 
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You know it makes sense.
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If you have skied a lot of reds then there will have been short bits of those that were steep and or narrow. A black run will have more of that in one go with less flat bits to rest on. Also much less grooming on them so they will probably be moguled unless you check the local website or boards to see what was groomed. Going with a guide/friend is a much more sensible idea especially for a first run.
I think Paulio's advice is spot on - you will get down but will you enjoy it. So have a go. I went down a black and had a great time but the day after with heavy snow and chopped up I could only "get down it".
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
might be a good idea to have a private lesson one afternoon to try a few black runs out
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sounds a very good idea. The instructor will be able to teach you the techniques to get down safely (ie in control). Don't count on doing "a few" though, unless it's a long lesson. I remember having a lesson on a (not very hard) black run. We did a couple of turns, he told me what I was doing wrong, then we did a few more, then repeat. Then did the same run another couple of times till I was too knackered to do the very energetic turns required, so we spent the end of the (2 hour) lesson doing fast carving turns down an easy red (well, I carved about 10% of the turn at best.....). Which felt fantastic, just following his line.
Black runs are often left unpisted - and if the snow is heavy and claggy and has been skied a fair bit, they can become real leg-breakers.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Black runs can vary a great deal. If you’re happy on all reds then there’s no reason not to give one a go.
The main difficulties are usually due to horrible moguls. These can be very large and getting down them is more survival skiing than style so don’t worry if you don’t feel you styling it, none of us do!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you've got an instructor, as you have, he'll probably take you down one anyway. Particularly if you tell him you want to push yourself and do a black as you never have. (I remember my first red on about day 3/4. The instructor took us to the bottom and then said have you seen the poles? What poles? They're red... Oh, I didn't know they meant anything!)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| James the Last wrote: |
| (I remember my first red on about day 3/4. The instructor took us to the bottom and then said have you seen the poles? What poles? They're red... Oh, I didn't know they meant anything!) |
I had exactly the same experience when learning. You don't realise you're doing it. Goes to show that it really is a mental game.
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| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
| I find it extremely subjective. |
It's not just subjective it's political. Some runs in easier resorts are classified black just so the resort has a few blacks. One run i can think of is classified red simply because it is the only access to a hotel/restaurant that doesn't want to only be accessible via a black.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| It's not just subjective it's political. |
Absolutely it is. That's why the best advice once you're a week or two off the nursery runs is 'ignore the colour, use your judgement'.
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| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
| SOME black runs can really test you. We (stupidly) ignored a "closed" barrier on the bellecombes black piste in L2A. My mate fell at the top of the piste and literally slid all the way to the bottom. They can be unforgiving. |
To be fair, that isn't a "black run" in those circumstances. It's off piste.
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Baron101, worth bearing in mind that on a black run in hard-pack conditions if you fall you may well keep going for quite a while and this can hurt!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have a mental block over black runs too, as I'm very nervous on steeps and tend to have huge lapses in confidence! If they marked them all red I'm sure I'd be fine.
I like to have a look at them first - if you can see it, you can judge whether you'd give it a go. If it helps, I've been down a few of the blacks in La Plagne, and they were mostly OK.
A good one to try is Rochette, which is immediately left off the Grand Rochette bubble. It's mogully, but quite short and not massively steep.
La Chiaupe off the glacier is quite steep and mogully, but again, do-able. Looks quite daunting from the bottom as it goes around the shoulder of the mountain, and it's quite long, but it isn't that bad.
La Mio is steep but OK, fairly short.
Mercedes was the toughest I tried, I made it down without falling in deep snow, but was glad to reach the bottom. You can see it from Les Verdons chair.
There are other blacks off the back off Aime, but they always seem to be shut when I'm there.
If you can comfortably do reds, you'll be fine on blacks.
As said above, I'd still avoid the terrifying ones like Le Tunnel and the Swiss Wall. No way would you get me down them!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If you want a decent black run give Le Coqs a whirl, take the chair which goes above the slalom course to the far right of plagne centre. This is easily steeper than the Swiss Wall mentioned above. If you can get down this you can ski any pisted run in Europe.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| adie wrote: |
| If you want a decent black run give Le Coqs a whirl, take the chair which goes above the slalom course to the far right of plagne centre. This is easily steeper than the Swiss Wall mentioned above. If you can get down this you can ski any pisted run in Europe. |
I don't think this is what the OP is looking for..
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
the stages:
You can't do blacks
You can do blacks (just) and need to tell everyone
You can do blacks, seek them out and don't feel the need to tell everyone
You stop looking at the colour of the pistes and use your own judgement as paulio suggests
You stop skiing the pistes except to get home  |
If only they started putting bars off piste....
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You know it makes sense.
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Feast, You might be right there - sounds a bit too brave for me on this trip! Piccadilly, thanks for your suggestions. As someone suggested earlier, I think my best bet is to try a private lesson or try and convince my instructor on the group lessons to take us down some black runs. My girlfriend is very much a starting intermediate (she can get down blues but that is about it) and having lessons so I have signed up for lessons also so that I'm not all onmy own for 2.5 hours per day. Based on what others have told me I think I'll be a level 3 intermediate (fine on all blues and reds) so hopefully we can progress onto some black runs. I haven't done any lessons in years so looking forward to seeing what happens 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Jakejenks,
| midgetbiker wrote: |
| One run i can think of is classified red simply because it is the only access to a hotel/restaurant that doesn't want to only be accessible via a black. |
did i not mention that it's an unpisted red that should be black
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| paulio wrote: |
| In any case, if you can ski reds all over the place, then the absolute worst thing that will happen to you on a European black run is that you'll 'get down' it, rather than enjoy yourself. |
If by 'get down it' you meant that to include those European black runs where, if a skier does get it wrong, it would in all likelihood include an instant unstoppable, rag-dolling fall and the possibility of battering yourself against rocks as you flip around on the way, then that's perfectly reasonable advice I suppose.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you are going to try your first black run my advice would be .....
1. Make sure your edges are sharp esp. if its icy otherwise you will scrap it down rather than ski down.
2. Stop at the side of the piste, try not to stop in the middle. People with GS skis could be zooming around and the last thing you want is to be hit by one of those.
3. Always look up before setting off from stationary so you don't get hit either.
4. Ski steep reds first and get your skiing to a stage where you can ski them in control i.e. not speeding up with each turn and burning the legs out then hanging on or stopping.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A black piste isn't steep if it can be groomed. However there could be in the middle a local "belly" or protrusion concealling the view of the bottom when standing at the top. Once starting the descend the view is clear and the fear will evaporate. A red piste rarely has this feature.
Some black runs may get the classification only because it :
Could not quite make it as a red run
Locally the run is narrow in place
The gradient may not be steep but the slope is long
The resort owner has to have some black runs to attract visitors.
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| Quote: |
your insurance wouldn't cover you on a closed piste.
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absolutely. If there's anything more definitely "skiing against local advice" than skiing a closed piste, I can't think of it!
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Which is all very well until you're half way down a slope and your judgement says ....... but there's no way out!
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then your judgement was bad. 
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| Baron101 wrote: |
| Piccadilly, thanks for your suggestions. As someone suggested earlier, I think my best bet is to try a private lesson or try and convince my instructor on the group lessons to take us down some black runs. My girlfriend is very much a starting intermediate (she can get down blues but that is about it) and having lessons so I have signed up for lessons also so that I'm not all onmy own for 2.5 hours per day. Based on what others have told me I think I'll be a level 3 intermediate (fine on all blues and reds) so hopefully we can progress onto some black runs. I haven't done any lessons in years so looking forward to seeing what happens |
Good idea, I'm going to have a private lesson on steeps next week. I really want to be better at skiing them! Or rather, ski them instead of survive them.
Good luck!
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| Piccadilly wrote: |
| A good one to try is Rochette, which is immediately left off the Grand Rochette bubble. It's mogully, but quite short and not massively steep. |
Last time I did the Grande Rochette, it wasn't mogully at all, but well groomed. It is not steep, there is no sudden 'drop' anywhere along it, and it is both wide and reasonably short. Almost certainly the easiest black I can remember, and one I would recommend to you.
But having done that run, it won't prepare you for something like the Mercedes which can be a sudden drop to a very steep and mogully run.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I seem to remember in La Plagne there were a few little short blacks off the sides of the reds/blues down towards Montchavin/ Vanoise Express way, that's where I first started doing blacks because they weren't very long so there was an easy way out.
Could be a good idea to look there if the snow's good? Conditions can be pretty terrible down there if the snow's bad though.
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| Quote: |
Which is all very well until you're half way down a slope and your judgement says ....... but there's no way out!
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then your judgement was bad. [/quote]
Or else your x-ray/round corners vision wasn't working at the time.
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FAQ
