OH and I may potentially be looking at new skis this season, been reading a little about the new rocker technology, particularly on the K2 range, does anybody have any experience of how this technology helps or hinders different levels of skier, the blurb certainly makes it look a whole lot easier to initiate the turn in any conditions?
I am early advanced, happy on all graded runs, ok on easyish OP, probably 70:30 on/off.
OH is intermediate, fine on reds, not much style but gets down lol.
Guess the question is mainly for OH, will this technology bring her on more quickly?
Thanks in advance.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Ski lessons are the key to making progress at this level, not rockered skis. Be interesting to see how ski instructors view this question.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
For OH not as quickly as decent lessons.
The way ski companies are marketing rocker can be a bit baffling. What's important to understand that it isn't one thing it's a whole spectrum from"marketing rocker" where you'd be hard pressed to even see it , but a marketing guy thinks it'll make the ski seem more attractive to the full on clownshoe spoon of something like a Hellbent or Flyswatter. K2 seem to do a reasonably good job of explaining what rocker they propose for different use. For intermediate skis I think the basic proposition is it allows an easier entry into the turn because the contact point is a bit further back.
neilkav, I'd stay well clear mate. Agree with uktrailmonster that lesson will be a far better investment at your stage. No point in compromising your on-piste fun (which you will) for the sake of any dubious benefit you might get from the small amount of off piste. If you must, get something like Missions/Lords which are mid-fat for your OP forays, but not rockered so won't compromise on-piste.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Assuming your last question is about skiing , I'd say no - but will also defer to others who have made the full transition from old to new school. I'm still halfway there.
From my own experience, fat and rockered skis do feel different and strange at first but they're also a helluva lot of fun. I think I've had a few glimpses of what they can really do and I can't wait to get really sorted on them. OP they're magic.
It's a whole new learning experience and I guess there's an argument for the OH graduating to advanced and mastering the basic skiing skills on skinnies before switching over. Moving to the new technology at her stage might be really frustrating and make her feel she's going backwards.
But on the other hand, there's no time like now and you know, it's the future like.
Good luck. May I suggest looking at the Whitedot range about which I'm totally one-eyed and horribly and completely biased. A pair of Whitedot Ones would be a good transition ski although it's not rockered.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 9-12-11 11:45; edited 2 times in total
I would say rocker benefits are mainly seen off-piste as it allows the tip to be lifted out of the powder/crud/snow.
Piste benefits are minimal/non-existant.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thanks for all the replies guys, probably not the 'benefit' the marketing guys would have me believe.
I may well look at some missions/lords. skied some lords last year they were great.
For OH, she will indeed continue with lessons
After all it is free
After all it is free
neilkav, probably best to try some out and see what you think, regardless of wether they have rocker or not!
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neilkav,
I have a pair of the Salomon XW Enduros -84mm underfoot: They ski short by around 60mm or so which I was dubious about, but the advice was spot on:
I've only used them in the Fridge due to injury, but they felt dull during the lesson, almost uninspired during the inevitable slow, control orientated lessons -this maybe because they were new and I needed to acclimatise? Afterwards, on a more or less empty, bumpy slope Smiles came like tears peeling onions They soaked up every bump, allowing easy controlled air, fast medium/large radius carving and frankly were tremendous fun. They have the weight of the legendary Atomic Metrons, and plenty of edge. The Salomon’s at least are marketed as an advanced ski, so for you yes. For the OH perhaps not as they could compromise lessons, maybe not. I'd suggest hiring a pair for say her second lesson to see how she feels: Ah... and one last thing they seem to like going fast!
Also suggest you PM Spydrejon on the topic. He has the ski’s and the expertise to give you a professional and honest answer.
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Have a look at the review I put on yesterday about the k2 impact... It's a little further down this forum.
That might be useful to you...
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neilkav, Totally agree with many comments on here. For any skier, lessons are massively important. Especially for you your OH as an intermediate.
I also agree that too many companies use Rocker as a marketing tool. Forget anything like camber, rocker, width, side cut etc etc. As an advanced skier you should be able to feel what is going to work for you. Get to a demo and tell the people running it what you want out of a ski and demo as many pairs as possible on a mountain in the conditions that you ski most of the time.
If you said you spend 60% of more of your time in pow and trees I'd suggest a Rockered ski would be great however not all of us have the luxury to ski those conditions most of the time.
It's all about demos mate.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
^^^ what he says
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I strongly disagree with these two comments:
Quote:
No point in compromising your on-piste fun (which you will)
Quote:
Piste benefits are minimal/non-existant.
K2's rocker and semi-rocker selections are now there main RnD'd ski type.
I have a pair of K2 Rictor sem-rockers (tip only). So they clearly have their off piste benefits due to the rock but they are also incredibly grippy and responsive on piste.
I have always preferred SX (short GS) skies on piste rather than SL's and the Rictors react equally well (if not better as they instigate turns much quicker) for short/long turn skiing with the added benefit of a decent rock for off piste.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
the Rictors react equally well (if not better as they instigate turns much quicker) for short/long turn skiing
Does this not say "benefits are minimal/non-existant", they are either as good or slightly better than a normal piste ski?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
neilkav, Interesting topic and it will be more interesting to see whether this is the start of more radical changes to volume ski market. Over the last 20 years ski design has come on leaps and bounds making for a far more accelerated learning, simply because less precision is required. (Anyone who jumped on a pair of slalom skis from the early 90s will know what i mean- and not just slalom skis). Overall, I am a great believer that once you reach a certain level you adapt your technique to suit your skis and you get to know your skis limitations and strengths. Also, everyone needs to be clear between the differences of rocker and camber ( or reverse camber as with some of the newer ski designs).
flangesax, I was tempted by the K2 Aftershock as a pal of mine bought a pair of Rictors.( I still think he should have bought the Aftershock for more off piste days). The thing I did notice was they seemed quite heavy and I noted in the blurb that they have a metal laminate. I sent an email to K2 requesting more info on the ski weight last year and didn't get a reply. Shame as they missed out on a potential sale.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Spinout, bloody heavy... totally unsuitable for touring which is a shame.
This is probably also one of the reasons that they are nice and reactive o piste.
galpinos, you are quite right... it does not say that.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I make no apology for posting this yet again - it is relevant to the thread and renders me helpless with laughter every time I watch it.
neilkav, just a small additional piece of info - I've found rocker means two things between/across the various companies. Some won't call a ski "rocker" (often using "full rocker" for extra emphasis) unless the centre of the ski is the lowest part.
Others (and I think the slim majority, maybe 55-60% of general references to rocker) just mean the front and/or back of the ski are raised*.
*The "early rise" term sneaking in here too, generally meaning (from what I've seen across many, many companies' marketing) bigger and earlier rise than a more conventional tip.
This is totally separate of course from whether a ski has negative camber, which is really just what's going on in the middle section (front to back) of a ski.
The point I wanted to add to the above comments is that when a company or single ski model mentions "full rocker" (and the ski has no camber or slight positive camber) or when the middle of the ski (under foot more or less) is the lowest part of the ski, you have less "pop" (spring/re-bound) built into the ski behaviour [this might be contentious but it shouldn't be] when transitioning between one turn and another. Essentially it's you the user that has to create/fuel the pop/spring with your body (unless the terrain will give you a freebie upwards kick, like on bumps) since the ski isn't being flexed out of position - as much - as with a reverse camber ski.
Or from the perspective of a ski with reverse camber (which when you lie it on the snow without your weight on it, is goingTr to have a small amount of air under the central part of the ski); the default position of the ski when in use is bent/flexed-by-your-weight. When you transition from one turn to another, and the force on the ski reduces, the ski returns to its natural position, aiding your body's movement away from the snow. Essentially the skis are assisting with your movement, more than a full rocker/positive camber ski (and in theory - or in marketing land - are less effort).
Point being ; manufacturers oft describe "full rocker" skis / those without reverse camber as for "more athletic skiers" : and it makes sense to me that when carving, a ski with reverse camber will be less effort, though marginally and perhaps even un-noticeably...
Ps - The full rocker / no camber / positive camber argument was explained to me by the Volkl rep at a recent MK ski test a giving a little bit more manoeuvrability in deeper snow, or really any time you're not on edge, but I personally couldn't feel that in the small time I tried the rockered varieties out (meaning full rocker, not just twin tip... Seriously they should've made more discrete naming conventions for this stuff).
PS - Lessons and ski tests all the way, too
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Awesome advice everyone, can really understand the differences now.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
a ski with reverse camber (which when you lie it on the snow without your weight on it, is goingTr to have a small amount of air under the central part of the ski);
i always understood it to be the opposite of this. ie camber is when an unweighted ski on a flat surface is off the surface in the middle of the ski. a reverse camber has no gap and the tail and tip are off the ground... not yet having entered the 21st century i could be wrong though...
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After all it is free
skimottaret, welcome to the 21st Century, you're correct.
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Hmmm this is wierd and confusing but yes - the two pro's are, unsurprisingly right. My knickers were in a severe twist on which camber was which. Thanks for the correction guys.
I fear I may always remember these the wrong way round now, it's pretty heavily entrenched already in the wrong format...
'Need a pnemonic (or whatever they're called); like "lefty loosey, righty tighty" for screws/taps etc, to help me remember this correctly
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Pedantica, One of the best ski movies ever. Thanks.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Pedantica, just... lol.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
when a company or single ski model mentions "full rocker" (and the ski has no camber or slight positive camber) or when the middle of the ski (under foot more or less) is the lowest part of the ski, you have less "pop" (spring/re-bound) built into the ski behaviour [this might be contentious but it shouldn't be]
on skis that are designed for off piste freestyle, there is still a lot of pop, this comes into play from the skis constructon as well as its shape.
One of the best examples is the Movement Flyswatter, massive tip and tail rocker, slightly positive underfoot, my lad has these for this season as he found it so easy to do flat 360 spins off very small bumps, even at Hemel
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hehe cool, thanks for the guidance. I was taking a rather simplistic view of the notion of pop vs camber perhaps. Like you say, it can't just be the camber that causes "pop". All skis are going to bend to more than their camber when skied, and I guess their materials (affecting rebound rate, absorption, ability to butter etc [I'm just making this up now]) and design are critical to their behaviour/feel...
I'd be interested to hear more about this theme for sure, if anyone's so inclined
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
pnemonic (or whatever they're called)
mnemonic
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I don't really see how skis have "pop"?
livetoski, Sounds to me like your lad is making cunning use of having very short effective edges.
Rebound, whatever you want to call it. Are you saying you don't get a kick in the pants from your RD SLs when you load them up a particuar way or making a physics point that any "pop" is related to the energy that has been put into them rather than an intrinsic property of the skis themselves?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
under a new name wrote:
I don't really see how skis have "pop"?
livetoski, Sounds to me like your lad is making cunning use of having very short effective edges.
De-camber your skis in hard carve, and when the pressure is released they will spring back to their normal cambered shape (same principle as shooting an arrow forma bow). I'm sure you're used to (using) this sort of rebound from turn to turn, although 'pop' seems to be more commonly used when loading the tails to jump/ollie off a jump.
So from Edge and Wax we have the following "rocker" skis
EARLY RISE SKI ROCKER
ALL TERRAIN SKI ROCKER OR FLOW RIDE
SPEED SKI ROCKER OR S-ROCKER
CATCH FREE SKI ROCKER OR FLOW RISE
EVEN SKI ROCKER OR JIB SKI ROCKER OR FLAT
POWDER SKI ROCKER OR FLOW ROCKER
FULL SKI ROCKER
What would these qualify as ??
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Now i really do know the whole thing is a load of blx!
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
They soaked up every bump, allowing easy controlled air, fast medium/large radius carving and frankly were tremendous fun. They have the weight of the legendary Atomic Metrons, and plenty of edge. The Salomon’s at least are marketed as an advanced ski, so for you yes. For the OH perhaps not as they could compromise lessons, maybe not. I'd suggest hiring a pair for say her second lesson to see how she feels: Ah... and one last thing they seem to like going fast!
