 Poster: A snowHead
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That's all I'd like to know, because from my experience, in person, and in the written word, there seems to be a lot of animosity.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat, odd I've never had a rude instuctor in Wengen, maybe I've just been lucky, but most of the instructors I know are very nice people
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've never met any that are rude. Even the ones which I didn't rate as instructors have invariably been pleasant company.
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D G Orf, yes, I had a very polite instructor in Wengen last winter. He was guiding, but providing a few tips along the way. He was from Seattle.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wear The Fox Hat,
Have had the odd rude instrutor. Mainly French, funnily enough! But never met a Swiss, Austrian or Italian instructor who has been rude.
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Thinking about it I have had skiing friends who've told me of rude or arrogant instructors that they've had, mostly there did seem to be a French theme to their complaints 
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| Thinking about it I have had skiing friends who've told me of rude or arrogant instructors that they've had, mostly there did seem to be a French theme to their complaints |
WTFH said rude. Arrogance is another matter. I've seen arrogant Austrian, Italian, Swiss, North American and British instructors as well as French.
Rude? Having followed closely along behind the best part of a thousand hours of lessons by mainly French instructors, plus watching others in passing, I've never seen anyone being rude to their charges, even to the kids. A touch offhand maybe, now and again, frustration creeping through with spoilt brats of kids (mainly British) occasionally too, but rudeness? No.
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PG, you are right arrogance is different, but some people see arrogance as rudeness which is why I mentioned it
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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By "rude" in this context I'm interpreting what WTFH means as offhand or lacking customer service skills, rather than actually saying something rude.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| By "rude" in this context I'm interpreting what WTFH means as offhand or lacking customer service skills, rather than actually saying something rude. |
Well, it depends how you define rude. If by their words they discourage a lesser skier from wanting to improve, then that just means they are not a good teacher, not that they are rude.
But, if they start off by belittling someone who is making an effort, then that is what I call rude.
So, if they were to constantly say or write, in effect "you are completely wrong as usual, and I am right because I am an instructor", then that is what I consider rude.
A good instructor should be able to get the message across effectively, and encourage others to improve.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PG, it's funny your comment about kids. i took my daughter horse back riding with an old cowboy who runs a stable in Fraser. he knows i teach at winter park. we were talking about how terrible american kids are and how well behaved kids are from the UK.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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LOL !
UK Kids..... dont get me started !
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Rusty Guy, maybe you get a better class of uk kid who visits the usa than visits europe to ski
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Never had a bad instructor, been to Meribel,Livigno and Niederau. The instructor in Meribel was a paticluarly jovial character.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| eEvans wrote: |
| I have however witnessed several hundred rude/arrogant/anti-European Britss with brains the size of peas acting as if they own the Alps while demonstrating the social skills of a 17th-century plague-carrying rodent. |
I wasn't attempting to wind any skier up with Euro-hatred, in fact, I am a Europhile. Contrary to popular belief, the UK is part of Europe, and that is a good thing, in my book.
I have more interaction with instructors around the world than most do on here - some of you may argue that they know more instructors in one resort, but I tell you, I interact more with more instructors around the world than most, if not all, on here.
My problem is not with the "I am a ski instructor", but the "you are wrong" attitude.
If I am wrong, then please tell me how to correct my mistake, and give me facts to back up why I am wrong.
To bulldoze through someone's understanding like it didn't matter is not a good way to encourage participation in snowsports as a leisure activity, and that's what I'd call rude.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat, I wouldn't call that rude, I'd call that poor teaching. To boil down your question to the fundamental issue, are you arguing that North American instructors are better teachers than European instructors?
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| I wasn't attempting to wind any skier up with Euro-hatred, in fact, I am a Europhile. Contrary to popular belief, the UK is part of Europe, and that is a good thing, in my book. |
In which case I was unreasonable and apologies are in order. I would howver suggest (IMHO) that the title was inflammatory (after a good lunch) and you might have praised other nationalities without poking at the Euros ??
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| I have more interaction with instructors around the world than most do on here , I interact more with more instructors around the world than most, if not all, on here. |
No dispute with that ! However , why not just put that as the core element of your original post/argument? Valid.
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To bulldoze through someone's understanding like it didn't matter is not a good way to encourage participation in snowsports as a leisure activity, and that's what I'd call rude. |
Absolutely ! And no questioning of your precept. There are however major culture differences around 'face' in parts of Europe and the sometimes paper-thin concept of customer service ( or customer crawling) as seen on occasion aross The Pond. Interesting how those different behaviours are perceived by us Brits? We adore the one and dismiss the other as arrogance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Also, as well as culture differences I think language barriers come in to play here. Don't think it's so much of an issue for children but as an adult I'd want an instructor who had an excellent command of English.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat, I wouldn't call that rude, I'd call that poor teaching. To boil down your question to the fundamental issue, are you arguing that North American instructors are better teachers than European instructors? |
Not necessarily. Neither, necessarily, are our antipodean friends.
But since this forum is mainly populated by Euros, and those who ski in Euro resorts, then it is really only fair to ask about Euro instructors.
While I am NOT a ski instructor, I do believe that skiing is not an exact science - yes, it can be boiled down to some basics, but because of varying conditons, no two turns are ever identical - they may look it, but they would require different angles/pressures/etc to complete. We interact with snow, and snow doesn't understand what we are trying to do.
So, unlike maths, where a teacher can say to a student:
1+1=2
The student can learn that, and know that it holds true. If it's a sunny day, the student doesn't think 1+1=3 today, or at night 1+1=1
Or take the equations used in physics or chemistry - they can be taught as a scientific fact, which can be repeated by rote.
Skiing isn't like that - it's about learning a series of movements, and applying them to differing levels at appropriate times, it's about acting with terrain changes, and reacting as well.
Skiing is more like poetry, or music, than maths or chemistry. There's good poetry, and bad poetry, but is there such a thing as "wrong poetry"?
I believe that what makes a good instructor is someone who is willing to learn themselves - not just from their superiors, but from students as well.
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Wear The Fox Hat, yes, but how does that relate to your original question about whether all European instructors are rude? Are you arguing that European instructors aren't willing to learn and adapt, but that North American instructors are?
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rob@rar.org.uk, I never mentioned North American instructors, or any others apart from Europeans, so please don't put words in my mouth!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wear The Fox Hat, why then did you mention European instructors in your initial question? Surely that just invites comparision with instructors from other parts of the world? When coupled with your well-known regard for American instructors at ESA, I don't think my interpretation of your question was too unreasonable. I'm happy to be corrected if I misunderstood you.
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rob@rar.org.uk, I guess I didn't explain myself fully then. I apologise for that.
Hopefully my reply at 2.22pm clears that up.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wear The Fox Hat, thanks it does clear it up, in which case I would say that the word "European" in your initial question is unnecessary as your question is more to do with the nature of teaching than it is some peculiarly European attribute.
To answer your question, about 20% of the instructors that I've had in the last 20 years seemed to adapt their teaching to my needs, explained themselves clearly in terms of what I should change and made a significant impact on my ability. The others have either not taught at all but simply set an example for me to emulate, or have been unable to adapt their teaching to my needs rather than what they normally teach. For too many years I avoided lessons because I was fed up of getting instructors in my 80% group, but now that I've discovered that you can increase the chances of getting instructors in my 20% group I take lessons every year. I wouldn't describe any of the instructors I've had as rude, even the ones in my 80% group, just not good teachers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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boredsurfin, I meet a lot of kids and I wouldn't agree. Knowing how and knowing when to behave are separate things, both equally important. And by class I'm not referring necessarily to that of ye olde English class war.
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i do find this interesting and want to offer my $00.02
for whatever reason, i have heard a great many complaints from UK citizens re "european" instructors. i have always had a sense that perhaps a little "bad blood" still exists from the not so distant past?
there are certainly plenty of rude/lousy/arrogant ski instructors in the USA. they are in the minority at every locale. having said that.....resort management and their peers are doing every thing they can to get these folks off the mountain.
for the past five years i worked as a supervisor at a resort and have had to deal with these morons on a daily basis. that is why i left my former resort and now only want to teach at my new home. no supervision please. i can't speak for europe.
i think anyone who works as an instructor in any country does everything they can to put forth a good product. i begin my group lessons by pledging to give 110%. i really mean it. i go on to add that at days end, i often realize, no matter how hard i have "tried", there are days my lessons were putrid. it's always troubling.
i'm dieing to some day go take a ski lesson in France and in Austria. maybe someday.
i sign off with one sweeping generalization. the hardest working and most congenial ski instructors on the face of the earth are Kiwis. i have supervised and worked beside these young men and women for many years. no matter the weather, class size, days worked straight, etc., etc., these folks keep on getting it done. they teach year round and rarely take a break.
how's that for a sweeping generalization?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Skiing isn't like that - it's about learning a series of movements, and applying them to differing levels at appropriate times, it's about acting with terrain changes, and reacting as well.
Skiing is more like poetry, or music, than maths or chemistry. There's good poetry, and bad poetry, but is there such a thing as "wrong poetry"?
I believe that what makes a good instructor is someone who is willing to learn themselves - not just from their superiors, but from students as well. |
Skiing itself might not be like that. However, the models we use to think about skiing can certainly be wrong. See any centripetal/centrifugal force thread.
If I am rephrasing an explanation in an incorrect way, then I have every expectation of being emphatically corrected, and wouldn't call it rude.
5 polite Italians/1 polite Austrian and then there was that Swedish guy.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| comprex wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Skiing isn't like that - it's about learning a series of movements, and applying them to differing levels at appropriate times, it's about acting with terrain changes, and reacting as well.
Skiing is more like poetry, or music, than maths or chemistry. There's good poetry, and bad poetry, but is there such a thing as "wrong poetry"?
I believe that what makes a good instructor is someone who is willing to learn themselves - not just from their superiors, but from students as well. |
Skiing itself might not be like that. However, the models we use to think about skiing can certainly be wrong. See any centripetal/centrifugal force thread.
If I am rephrasing an explanation in an incorrect way, then I have every expectation of being emphatically corrected, and wouldn't call it rude.
5 polite Italians/1 polite Austrian and then there was that Swedish guy. |
i just read a very simple centrifugal/centripetal passage.
centrifugal-the force a ski makes on the snow.......glance at gs tracks
centripetal-the force the snow exerts on a ski.
the question is why would anyone ever delve into the topic and ruin skiing!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Rusty Guy, I wouldn't bother, certainly. In fact I think the above shall be my first, only, and last mention of the concepts either here or on Epic/DCski. Yet somehow we require the same simple explanations over again, every year.
I can only surmise that WTFH or his correspondents have been subject to momentary failures of the infinite patience that provides us with those simple explanations, over again.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Never had an instructor but all the guides I've had have been top blokes.
Can't see why anyone who relies on repeats would be that way inclined. Time to quit if that the case..!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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JT, amen......somehow there are occasional.....disconnects. i do think there is some responsibility in the equation for the customer to right the ship if it's headed in the wrong direction.
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WTFH wrote
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Skiing is more like poetry, or music, than maths or chemistry. There's good poetry, and bad poetry, but is there such a thing as "wrong poetry"?
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I don't quite understand the analogy here. If you write poetry, love what you write, and either don't care what anyone else thinks, or find that they all love it too, no problem. And you wouldn't pay to go to poetry lessons. If people enjoy their ski holidays, and feel no need to do it any differently, no problem. But if they go to an instructor it is presumably because they feel there is something "bad" about their skiing, and have a hunch that they would enjoy it more if they did it "better". I would expect an instructor to point out ways in which my technique is preventing me doing things the way I want (i.e. is "wrong" in relation to my own explicit learning goals). There are absolutes when it comes to racing. Faster is better. Elsewhere, it depends on our personal ambitions. Do I want to get down a bump slope under control, and to arrive at the bottom without feeling totally knackered? Or am I happy lurching down and getting there somehow, without falling over?
Obviously there are differences in the emphasis amongst different instructors, or even disagreements about technique. And some people are much better at teaching at some levels than others. Some people just can't teach anything (though I have yet to encounter any ski instructor from which I felt I couldn't learn a lot).
I ski with some people who haven't improved for years, but are adamantly opposed to taking lessons, not because they think they "know it all", by any means, but because they just hate being made to slow down and think about what they are doing rather than pottering around having fun, and because they are quite happy with what they can do. They are akin to two-fingered typists who can't be bothered to learn to touch type because initially it would mean slowing down. The way they type isn't "wrong", it's just slow and inefficient.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Skiing is more like poetry, or music, than maths or chemistry. There's good poetry, and bad poetry, but is there such a thing as "wrong poetry"?
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Well, ahem:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=1763&highlight=limerick
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
And here it is:
A limerick is a 5 line poem. NOT 6.
Lines 1, 2 and 5 should rhyme, and scan (metrically)
Lines 3 & 4 rhyme and scan, with each other.
On occassion, it is acceptable for line 5 not to rhyme with 1 and 2, but only if it is to highlight the obviousness of a rhyme with lines 1 and 2 by providing a non-rhyming solution
And now a more specific point: to keep the thread flowing, and not having limericks splitting over pages, we MUST stick to the rules.
If this seems to complicated for you, then please post questions here, rather than messing up the thread! |
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| slikedges, Unfortunately the behaviour of children has no relation to class! |
How true - although you can get a different class of kids' rudeness! I know a French instructor who was engaged to help out during training and racing at the British Schoolgirls' competition in Flaine a few seasons back. As a club coach rather than a resort instructor it was his first contact with British children.
He comes from a background where his club trainees are expected to learn - rapidly - self-reliance from a very young age (7-ish up), to pick themselves up from the ground short of having an open fracture a la Werner Franz, to treat their teachers and advice given with respect, to put up with adverse conditions without complaint.
His milder and quotable view of the "young ladies" present was that they were mostly a bunch of arrogant nose-in-the-air softies who seemed to consider that the instructors there represented a cross between a sherpa and his mule.
edit: which sort of brings me to another question. Is what may be interpreted as "rudeness" in certain countries - (allegedly largely populated by overweight and/or unfit softies some of whom might think any instructors used during their holiday in the snow should be a version of the holiday camp 'redcoat') - just the Alpine version of tough, down-to-earth, no nonsense country folk attitude, from people who have yet to go on a customer service "have a nice day" customer is always right course and who treat foreign visitors as they would the locals as a result?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 31-08-05 8:23; edited 1 time in total
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My BASI trainer Ali Ross told me I was skiing "like a lampost" at the beginning of the course. After a week's deconstruction of bad habits I asked how my skiing was going.
"You're skiing like a bent lampost" he said.
Ali Ross is Scottish.
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PG, if expecting others to purchase a service or goods, one simply has to decide for oneself how far one is willing to go to satisfy the demands of customers in a competitive marketplace in order to develop or sustain a business one considers sufficiently successful. You then live with the position taken and the effect on the business. If the attraction and proximity of the Alps to UK skiers continues to outweigh any perceived lack of appropriate customer handling skills and attitude amongst Alpine natives then the industry will continue to thrive. If UK skiers increasingly demand more pleasant service, they'll have to change their ways, no doubt by degrees and only to the extent they feel willing or able to at the time, to maintain market share.
It's got to do with how badly one wants "success" and therefore whether you demand customers accept your services on your terms take it or leave it, or whether you are keen enough to be willing to provide a service on their terms. My observation is that the successful businesses don't begrudge the customers and don't just reluctantly follow suit when the standards expected shift.
Of course if you're paid enough to put up with badly brought-up kids of moneyed parents of whatever usual or unusual class...
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 31-08-05 9:15; edited 3 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, I was told the same thing by Kenny Dickson (also a Scot) a few years ago!
Although it might seem like a rude comment, it certainly help me to visualise what my problem was.
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| pam w wrote: |
WTFH wrote
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Skiing is more like poetry, or music, than maths or chemistry. There's good poetry, and bad poetry, but is there such a thing as "wrong poetry"?
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I don't quite understand the analogy here. If you write poetry, love what you write, and either don't care what anyone else thinks, or find that they all love it too, no problem. And you wouldn't pay to go to poetry lessons. |
No, but you would go to school and learn to read and write first, and you probably read poetry, and appreciate it before you started to write it.
(I was going to just say that skiing was like music, but since not everyone on here is a musician, then that analogy would have been ineffective to some, I added poetry, because I would expect that everyone on here has read poetry at some stage, and most may have written some at school or later as well)
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FAQ
They actually went on to look for a restaurant with a TV as the children refused to eat without a TV. 
everytime.
