OK, first post, so new around here - and if it's anything like mtb forums I'll be advised to "use the search button" or accused of starting a flame war.
In reality, this is (should be) neither.
Learnt to ski in the late 80s, loved it, progressed to my own skis & boots etc, and reached a good "intermediate" standard.
Restarted skiing in 2007 after a long break. Loved it (of course) and bought new (much shorter!) skis - Apache Crossfires. Now, these are lovely fast piste cruisers, easy to turn, but over the last few seasons my thoughts have turned to how quickly they turn...
My recollection of my old, long, skinny skis, was that they could be hard work, but actually delivered much quicker, snappier, shorter turns...?
With this in mind I looked through the racks at my local store at the weekend, and almost all of the skis had a turn radius of about 14-16m. Shortest I saw was about 12m.
When I first started skiing, most piste skis were based on detuned GS or SL skis - with the SL based skis delivering the short, snappy turns that I think I remember... I had it in mind that some of the 2m+ SL skis had sub-10m turn radii (although this might be the fallible memory bit)
Is this breed of ski now extinct in the days of all mountain, backcountry and freeride??? What should I be looking for in terms of skis that can do quick, short linked turns without getting like hard work?
Also, the newer style of skis don't seem to have anything like the edge grip that I remember...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Doubt late 80s skis had anything like the sidecut of modern skis, they were almost straight. Maybe felt snappier because they had pretty stiff camber - I think someone recently commented that a ski designer of that era had commented that there was nothing still to be done with shape and it was all about stiffness and camber
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
your memory is fallible - i'd be very surprised if your old school SL skis has a radius of less than 30m
I still have my old skis, and yes, the sidecut looks minimal compared to new ones.
That said, the Apache Crossfires would appear (layman speak here) to be much stiffer - relying on the ski's side profile to define the turning arc. I "think" that, once on their edge and properly weighted, my old 204cm K2s flexed much more to help define that turning arc - particularly between the tip and the binding. The tails tails were always quite stiff IIRC...
As I said, this may entirely be down to poor memory - but on the other hand, slalom skiing was just as competitive in the 80s - 90s and mogul skiing was pretty popular!!!
Have always wanted to do a side by side comparison - but fairly nervous about clipping in to a 20 yr old set of bindings
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
If you're still skiing in 80s style maybe you can do it. I suspect that most of today's skiers lack the skill to even turn a pair of straight skis in teh length that would have been appropriate for them.
i'd be very surprised if your old school SL skis has a radius of less than 30m
But are slalom gates half as close today .... or moguls smaller and closer together??? I'm pretty certain that skiers were achieving the same short turns with the old kit.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
slalom techniques have changed lots since the 80s. maybe the courses too?
modern specialist mogul skis don't have much sidecut - the technique isn't to do clean carves but to do skiddy turns to control your speed (so I read - I suck at moguls )
After all it is free
After all it is free
rkk01, Probably the memory failing you!
Just look up Ted Ligity's current blog and there is plenty about the progression of Radius, length and sidecut!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
There was a lot less carving and much more skidding going on back in the 80s - remember short-swings? I remember the tails would bite and provide a decent amount of rebound, but there wasn't a lot of pure carving going on. Old school skis were also quite happy to straight line flat where modern skis like to be held slightly on edge. I very much doubt slalom skiers on old school skis would be competitive against today's breed of race carver, otherwise they'd still be using them.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
As a guy who still uses the old equipment, I can say that the old slalom racing had much tighter and quicker changes of direction than modern. I've compared many recordings of slalom racing from the '70s to today and the modern course is set up to allow a carved turn around the gates. Looking at times to complete the course they are still around the 50 second mark both then and now.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rkk01 wrote:
...I had it in mind that some of the 2m+ SL skis had sub-10m turn radii...
You seem to be missing a zero from that measurement.
I suspect your memory is a bit (lot) rose tinted and your technique needs updating.
Rather than "Use the search" you're more likely on here to get "Take some (lot of) lessons"
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Stenmark was an absolute master but anyone can see he is fighting with the skis rather than using them efficiently like Schwartz. All that inner ski lifting to make the turns for starters....
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Andre straightski wrote:
I can say that the old slalom racing had much tighter and quicker changes of direction than modern. I've compared many recordings of slalom racing from the '70s to today and the modern course is set up to allow a carved turn around the gates. Looking at times to complete the course they are still around the 50 second mark both then and now.
"much tighter and quicker changes of direction than modern" - in the same way that a car rolling out of control is making much quicker changes of direction than a car turning using its wheels...
I measured my (?) 1992 201cm Rossi 7SKs a couple of years ago to compare them with my 2008 203cm Volkl SuperGs. I think the SuperGs had a radius around 30m, the Rossis north of 50m. I didn't measure my 2007 FIS SLs but I think they were quietly quoted as 11m...
I can tell you which turned faster and they weren't the Rossis ...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@adithorp, Ten years on I suspect rkk01 has forgotten about this thread !!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Andre straightski, Slalom courses now have much bigger offsets than were used in the days of straight skis in order to keep speeds down and the time at around 50s.
The new skis are better in every way. I still have old style race skis in perfect condition that I could take out if I wanted, they stay at home.
There was a pre-race show on German TV a couple of years ago where Felix and Christian Neureuther inspected the Kitzbuehl slalom together using the equipment that they had each used to win the race.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
albob wrote:
@adithorp, Ten years on I suspect rkk01 has forgotten about this thread !!
Hmmm didn't spot it was a bump
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rjs wrote:
@Andre straightski, Slalom courses now have much bigger offsets than were used in the days of straight skis in order to keep speeds down and the time at around 50s.
The new skis are better in every way. I still have old style race skis in perfect condition that I could take out if I wanted, they stay at home.
There was a pre-race show on German TV a couple of years ago where Felix and Christian Neureuther inspected the Kitzbuehl slalom together using the equipment that they had each used to win the race.
Agree. Much bigger offsets. But that's kind of my point. Seems to me that the gates were much closer together in the past. Now it's kind of like a mini GS course. People these days want to see those deep carves so the course is layed out to promote this. I would like to check out that side by side Kitzbuehl footage.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Andre straightski, I'm not really sure what you are arguing. Old skis were much harder to turn extreme angles on so slalom courses had to be set realistically for both longer and straighter equipment. Now it is easier to turn without losing speed so courses have been made more challenging. The overall time is irrelevant - circa 50s courses are obviously thought to be the fairest test of ability.
There is no doubt that modern equipment is MUCH better than old.
If old straight skis still give you kicks then fine - it's primarily about fun. You might even be able to get in some classic old timer bragging about how you're a much better skier than these young punks because you did it all on 215cm twigs ( which everyone has yawned at for the past 20 years). But you're barking up the wrong tree claiming equivalency.
As DotM says if you have a great time on old skinny skis then that is fantastic.
Many of us here (we tend not to be very young!) got to be decent skiers on old tech skis.
It's not just that modern skis are better, it is that they ALLOW YOU TO GET BETTER MORE QUICKLY. Modern skis enable a skier to carve turns under a much wider range of conditions than old skinny skis. This means you get much more opportunity to practice and learn the movements and body positions that set high edge angles. You get frequent positive feedback that helps tune your skiing.
You can still pivot modern skis you just end up with a bigger toolkit of skills to blend. There is only upside
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