So as to not totally derail the cool wall thread which to be fair is only hanging on the tracks by one wheel as it is, a thread for discussion of counter.
Stantoni has a fair and understandable go at explaining it here
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Counter or no counter? It depends on where in the turn you want to manage pressure and how much opportunity you have to make a rounded turn. On piste you generally want to manage pressure around the whole turn and staying square to the skis means that it's easy to get pressure on early. On steeps you generally don't want to make rounded turns, generally want to control pressure with the skis beneath you and want to get the skis around quickly - in which case counter gives you the distinct advantage that the retained torsional tension in the core helps bring the skis around.
Is counter something that just happens as a result of where you put your legs and hips or is it something you consciously develop or eliminate?
Does it have anything to do with where your chest is facing or is it hips only? And why should we care? Counter in short turns seemed to be a criticism of US demonstration skiing in the other thread but was it bad or just stylistically unpretty?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I'd say counter is something which should happen naturally as a result of the skis steering. The upper body should generally face where momentum is pushing it. So in very long radius turns the upper body would be much more square to the skis (just a little behind where the skis are pointing) allowing more efficient weight transfer / lateral movement necessary for carving.
But in very short radius turns momentum is more down the fall line and the skis steer quickly below you and in that case the upper body faces more down the fall line, therefore is countered quite a lot. If we didn't have counter in short radius turns the rotation of the upper body would interfere throw off the natural flow of skiing.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On steeps you generally don't want to make rounded turns, generally want to control pressure with the skis beneath you and want to get the skis around quickly - in which case counter gives you the distinct advantage that the retained torsional tension in the core helps bring the skis around.
I think there's a bit of confusion here (and also in what born2ski says). Counter is the pointing of the hips towards the outside of the turn - i.e. counter to the direction of the turn. When skiing steeps your body is more faced down the hill, so at the beginning of the turn it (and the hips) are facing more towards the inside of the turn - i.e. the exact opposite of counter. When done deliberately it's most commonly called "anticipation", and it's a fine line (but definitely different ) between that and initiating a turn by swinging the shoulders. It's this twist that gives the extra coiled-spring effect to bring the skis round quickly once the pressure is released. By keping the upper body relatively quiet and letting the skis turn underneath you you do then end in a countered position relative to the end of the turn - but then that in its turn becomes the anticipated position for the new turn. If you want to get counter at the beginning of the turn you have to consciously rotate your hips outside the turn (i.e. back up the hill)
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Is counter something that just happens as a result of where you put your legs and hips or is it something you consciously develop or eliminate?
Does it have anything to do with where your chest is facing or is it hips only? And why should we care? Counter in short turns seemed to be a criticism of US demonstration skiing in the other thread but was it bad or just stylistically unpretty?
I think there is a small amount of counter created naturally by having to retract the inside leg when inclining the lower body against the slope - it's virtually impossible given the stiffness of a ski boot (and so restricted flexion of the ankle) to retract that leg without bringing it a bit forward, and there is a natural tendency for the hip to follow it. The presence or absence of counter govern how much you can angulate at the hips and waist - the spine allows relatively free fore-aft movement but little side to side movement. When trying to get to the extremes of angulation this can come into play - using counter to allow more angulation - but needs good core strength to control. The downside of that additional flexibility is that it's a weaker position, so unless you really need it it's much more mechanically secure to keep that counter to a minimum - and I'd say that the level developed naturally should really be adequate for to the majority of recreational skiers. Fastman and I had a run-in on the subject here
The amount you need counter should be in proportion to the forces that occur as you turn. More forces should equal more counter as it allows you to balance better at more extreme edge angles (especially when you need to flex your upper body forward to maintain your Centre of Mass above your feet), as well as stronger alignment of your biggest muscles. The forces will be the outcome of a number of factors, especially speed and how tightly you turn. For those who have Ron LeMaster's 2nd edition there's a good description on pages 73-76.
The problems I see with counter generally fall in to two camps: too little counter as a result of the skier driving the shoulders around the turn, which also brings the hips around; or too much counter, as a result of the outside foot falling back in the turn (or the inside ski being pushed forward excessively) resulting in the hips being too open.
Chest and/or hips? If you counter your hips but not your chest you are going to get some spine-twisting going on, which obviously isn't good for a strong stance.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 18-11-11 15:59; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
GrahamN wrote:
I'd say that the level developed naturally should really be adequate for to the majority of recreational skiers.
Agree fully. If I see stance weakened by too much or too little counter (see the two examples I gave earlier) I will address the cause of the inappropriate counter, but otherwise I don't see there is much need to mention counter to the clients I teach (although a number of the drills we use will involve the client naturally using some counter).
GrahamN, Good point about technically being non-countered at the beginning of a short turn. My comments referred more to the amount of countering at the end of the turn.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
A lot of confusion as to what's best, some would say keep it to a minimum "driving outside arm or outside ski forwards" yet still practise with javelin drills which would appear to actually promote it!?
As others have said it would be mechanically very difficult to remove it completely and still angulate, it would also mean you would have to flex your inside boot more than the outside to keep the skis square, I've pretty much given up worrying about it as long as I don't feel too twisted to the outside or too square where I lose the ability to angulate.
So its definitely worth it for a skier to know what both ends of the spectrum actually feel like so they are able to manage the extremes.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
(Withdrawn. Inability to read on my part!)
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 19-11-11 0:39; edited 1 time in total
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Might be less complicated to divide counter vs anticipation by: anticipation- more towards steered turns and counter- more towards carving turns.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
GrahamN wrote:
Counter is the pointing of the hips towards the outside of the turn - i.e. counter to the direction of the turn. When skiing steeps your body is more faced down the hill, so at the beginning of the turn it (and the hips) are facing more towards the inside of the turn - i.e. the exact opposite of counter. When done deliberately it's most commonly called "anticipation", and it's a fine line (but definitely different ) between that and initiating a turn by swinging the shoulders. It's this twist that gives the extra coiled-spring effect to bring the skis round quickly once the pressure is released. By keping the upper body relatively quiet and letting the skis turn underneath you you do then end in a countered position relative to the end of the turn - but then that in its turn becomes the anticipated position for the new turn. If you want to get counter at the beginning of the turn you have to consciously rotate your hips outside the turn (i.e. back up the hill)
Well put and a better explanation than my original.
I'm off to Hintertux tomorrow and was having a look at the Phil Smith All Terrain DVD this lunchtime over a slap up lunch of curried baked beans on toast. (My, how we live in SE London!).
(In "general rule" terms) Phil Smith makes the point that you steer the skis using twisting when the terrain is difficult for your relative level and you want to ski relatively slowly. Which is probably, relatively, where anticipation / countering are most appropriate.
The "trouble" with skiing, of course, is that what is generally accepted to be "best" changes and evolves. These are from the other thread, but instructive to watch - Killy vs Bode...
It's not that Bode doesn't counter, he does. It's that he generally only counters when he's run out of range of movement, or needs to get the skis to do something their sidecut wouldn't otherwise do - whereas Killy always counters.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The "trouble" with skiing, of course, is that what is generally accepted to be "best" changes and evolves. These are from the other thread, but instructive to watch - Killy vs Bode...
Or, the equipment evolves and technique adapts to make the most of it ?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Interesting use of Bode Miller in making a point about slalom skiing ...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
SkiRider, not that conscious a choice if I'm honest. I just like the clip!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
You could use that clip of Bode for a thread titled "Back Seat"!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
Or, the equipment evolves and technique adapts to make the most of it ?
It looks to me, on the steeps, Julia is keeping her upper body pointed down the hill and pivoting the skis underneath her. When it flattens out she is pivoting them less and is more squared up as a result.
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Poster: A snowHead
