 Poster: A snowHead
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| jirac18 wrote: |
| I was dreadful at teaching my daughter to ride a bicycle from scratch but now she has mastered the basics I am plenty able to teach her and supervise her in becoming a proficient cyclist. |
Are you qualified to do so?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| jirac18 wrote: |
| the green cross code bloke from the seventies ads to teach crossing the road, |
David Prowse I think, aka Darth Vader (or Dark Vador as the French call him).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The thing about skiing is that doing it well is actually pretty complicated. In cycling, for instance, you only have to worry about lateral balance, moving your feet up and down, and turning the handlebars. You don't need to worry about tactics, short turns, long turns... when it gets steep and you're scared a little twitch of your fingers on the brake lever brings you back in control/to a stop. Fairly simple, and not so difficult to teach (or self learn - if you lean back a bit more than normal (or whatever other bad habit) you might look funny, but it's not gonna affect your control). In skiing you've got (changing) fore, aft and lateral balance, edging and angulation in different joints, flexion and extension of different joints and muscles, no built in brake, subtle blends of steering/skidding/carving. There are a lot of things that can be learned/taught/done wrong that really will affect performance, control and progression. If you don't know what you're doing you might just see that kid going down fine and think you've done a good job teaching them, without noticing that it's turning not by using the skis, but by chucking the torso around/ruddering around the ski tails (or whatever other thing). Not spotting and working on this soon will re-inforce it, and they hey presto, you have a kid that will never learn to carve a turn properly/whatever without somehow finding lots of time and money to spend on breaking the habit.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 3-11-11 21:54; edited 1 time in total
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| RobW wrote: |
| jirac18 wrote: |
| I was dreadful at teaching my daughter to ride a bicycle from scratch but now she has mastered the basics I am plenty able to teach her and supervise her in becoming a proficient cyclist. |
Are you qualified to do so? |
No but thats my point. Why do I need some poxy certificate to prove my ability to teach any given subject.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jirac18 wrote: |
| Why do I need some poxy certificate to prove my ability to teach any given subject. |
You don't, in this postmodern world everybody is an expert at everything and will probably cry if you suggest otherwise.
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clarky999, I doubt many cross country good/high level mountain bikers would fully agree with that statement. Yet another example of ski snobbery, those who think skiing is more difficult than everything else and must be done by the exacting standards of a manual. Not everyone wants to be Alberto Tomba or all lardy da correct and proper with spiffing good technique. Some people just enjoy skiing for what it is and can ski ugly but safe. Lee Trevino and Jack Nicklaus have/had pretty ugly golf swings even in their prime but jeez they enjoyed a great level of golf. Anyway I guess we're going a bit off topic there.
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| jirac18 wrote: |
| clarky999, I doubt many cross country good/high level mountain bikers would fully agree with that statement. Yet another example of ski snobbery, those who think skiing is more difficult than everything else and must be done by the exacting standards of a manual. |
Its not snobbery, its the learners expectations of what they want to be able to ski.
In skiing terms most cyclists will never get of the nursery slope. They cycle along roads and the odd bumpy path, its easy and anyone can do it. If skiers achieved the same level they would only ever slide down the nursery slope, not even getting on a lift to a green. Anyone could do that without tuition, any bad habits would be inconsequential.
But most skiers want to do more that the equivalent of cycle to the shops. They want to be able to travel around the resort on at least most pistes.
The cycling equivalent would be fairly serious levels of mountain biking, something that you would be well advised to take some tuition to learn.
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I'd agree with that. I am definitely a "green slope" cyclist but a much more capable skier - but I'm sure I wouldn't be, if I'd had no expert tuition.
A better comparison than some of those above might be with music. With some (maybe not all) instruments the right basic technique is essential and bad habits (e.g. of embouchure, or wrist movements, or whatever) very hard to break. Few of us would spend a couple of weeks playing the harp, or the guitar, or the trumpet, then set out to teach our kids how to do it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jirac18 wrote: |
| clarky999, I doubt many cross country good/high level mountain bikers would fully agree with that statement. Yet another example of ski snobbery, those who think skiing is more difficult than everything else and must be done by the exacting standards of a manual. Not everyone wants to be Alberto Tomba or all lardy da correct and proper with spiffing good technique. Some people just enjoy skiing for what it is and can ski ugly but safe. Lee Trevino and Jack Nicklaus have/had pretty ugly golf swings even in their prime but jeez they enjoyed a great level of golf. Anyway I guess we're going a bit off topic there. |
It's not ski snobbery at all - whitewater kayaking (which is my other sport - and which I also teach) is another example of a sport with less complicated technique than skiing. You can get damn good at it without needing lessons or coaching at all, as there is less going on. If you want to be a slalom racer it's more complex, but there are many great boaters styling grade 5 rapids and scoring exotic first descents who have had no proper coaching or background - it's more intuitive. I think most bikers would agree that applies to their sport too actually.
No not everyone wants to be a top racer - and it's way out of reach of even most very good skiers. But without learning good technique and getting the basics right it is impossible to become even a half-decent recreational skier. You don't need 'lardy da correct and proper spiffing' technique like high level instructors to have fun, but if you want to enjoy the whole mountain, safely, efficiently and in good control, you do need to get the fundamentals correct. The things I described above really will halt a skiers progression safely skiing steep pistes/offpiste/bumps/carving/etc. And those things shouldn't be considered high level/hardcore skiing, they are perfectly achievable by any skier - if they learn to ski rather than control their slide down the slope. 'Ugly' skiing really is much more limiting than 'ugly' biking/kayaking/football/etc.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 3-11-11 23:18; edited 1 time in total
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| Quote: |
Its not snobbery, its the learners expectations of what they want to be able to ski.
In skiing terms most cyclists will never get of the nursery slope. They cycle along roads and the odd bumpy path, its easy and anyone can do it. If skiers achieved the same level they would only ever slide down the nursery slope, not even getting on a lift to a green. Anyone could do that without tuition, any bad habits would be inconsequential.
But most skiers want to do more that the equivalent of cycle to the shops. They want to be able to travel around the resort on at least most pistes.
The cycling equivalent would be fairly serious levels of mountain biking, something that you would be well advised to take some tuition to learn.
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"That's about right I reckon!"
jirac18, Not sure you can compare Pro golf to Pro or even advanced skiing, Lee Trevino and Jack Nicklaus may have had ugly swings (although I wouldn't have minded them!) but they both got it right at one point in the swing as with all good ball strikers- at impact, I've never really seen a really ugly pro/advance skier! Golf as you know is mostly between the ears! you can get as technical as you like with it and it won't always make you a good golfer"I Know!" 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Remember that the difference between a ski instructor and God is that God doesn't think he's a ski instructor. (Or something like that...)
| jirac18 wrote: |
| To all anti teach your own child posters please take a second to think if you are maybe being a liitle unreasonable (ie A SKI SNOB) coz its really unattractive. |
The OP posted their experience of teaching their child to ski on a popular skiing form at the time of year when Joe Public is Googling to find out the "best" way of introducing Joe Public Jr to skiing.
"Ah excellent, I'll stick Joe Public Jr between my legs then. That seemed to work for that Layne person on Snowheads and many people turned up and said 'Well done young Layne, you are such a saint for teaching your own child in such an excellent manner'. So it must work."
Had it not been for the "technique tips" I would have held my consul. As it was I wrote the post and left it 20 minutes before posting.
Grow up folks. The OP posted their experience and views. I posted mine. If I'm a ski snob for expressing my opinion then I'm a ski snob.
If the OP is looking for a pat on the back and congratulations all around then they should have posted on mumsnet rather than a skiing forum.
| FlyingStantoni really meant to wrote: |
| Jolly good Layne, you did such an excellent job and I'm proud of you. |
There. That's obviously much better...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Popcorn anyone? 
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| Popcorn anyone? |
Strangely enough I was going to drop you a PM on that subject.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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FlyingStantoni, you could quite easily have made exactly the same point in a far nicer fashion than your initial rip her/him a new one method. If you don't agree well thats up to you but just have a look at some of the responses you have had and at least think about it.
In principle I agree with all who say "expert professional" advice is best whether that be for skiing tuition or anything else but there are many differnt levels to all of this and it certainly isn't essential as the thousands of self taught or parent taught skiers will testify to.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Colin B, That was my thought however I don't know any of the posters well enough to know who or what they are. In my experience many "pro" tradesmen take a dim view on the amateurs trying to do their best at DIY and some of that surely has to be protectionism and empire building. Lets face it many so called experts are just like any old Joe Bloggs but with a certificate some agency decided they could charge a huge cost for acquiring.
I stress again however that this is qualified by the accepted need for safety first when it comes to teaching anyone adult or child a potentially hazardous pastime such as skiing, biking or canoeing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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FlyingStantoni, You need to accept that there can be more than one solution to any situation. Lessons may be right for many but parents teaching may also be right for others.
If there was only ever one right answe then we'd all be skiing in La Rosiere. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Further thoughts on the whole subject.
Layne was recounting his experience of teaching his children the first steps of skiing, rightly or wrongly in whoevers eyes, they were just that his experience. I am sure as his children get older they will have formal lessons but that is up to Layne and his children. As for facts I am guessing there are no specific facts around 'child injuries' when skiing between childrens legs, and whilst a fair few of us have done this without issue (me included), i have also seen the odd incident one quite nasty, they are at this time observations and without impirical evidence and not based in fact.
I would guess that most of the crop of top european racers were initially schooled by their parents on the slopes but their parents were probably skiing at a level above most of us and may have already been racers or instructors anyway.
Without knowing Layne or his childrens abilities we can only add our view on the relative rights and wrongs of his initial approach but they are again just that our views and I for one think we should keep any views just that our view. I don't think in a lot of these cases anything is absolutely right or wrong and without fully understanding the details and context we just don't know, so lets try and keep any views as far as possible non-inflammatory.
On a slightly specific point 'feeling smug as they passed another ski lesson' I have to say as a parent I often feel slightly proud (and some smugness) when one of my children does something better than someone else, whether they be the same age or older (that would be the slightly competetive and proud parent I am for which I make no excuses nor do I think I need any). I am sure Layne's meaning wasn't a 'look at my self taught child, he's better than your instructor led adults' but more 'look at my my child and how well he's doing'. Which perhaps didn't come across in the OP.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 4-11-11 10:25; edited 1 time in total
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| ansta1 wrote: |
I would guess that most of the crop of top european racers were initially schooled by their parents on the slopes but their parents were probably skiing at a level above most of us and may have already been racers or instructors anyway.
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I tell you what the principal difference is, they ski a lot more regularly than brit skiers (the OP is maybe an exception as he did a lot of trips). I went out every weekend last year with my son from end of November to May, generally one day a week or sometimes a couple of hours in the morning or afternoon if the weather was bad.
Going back to the Kayak analogy. Those self taught kayakers have probably had some tips from mates, things like righting the kayak are not easy to learn on your own and they are probably out all the time in their boats. I know plenty of high level local skiers who've only ever been taught by their parents or mates. Hell Marco Siffredi boarded down Everest after starting snowboarding at 16 with no pro lessons.
Still you know what they say about snowboarders. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| cathy wrote: |
I agree that the OP set himself up, probably unintentionally, with his attitude in the first post but hey, it's a free world  |
That's my view. I couldn't care less if parents teach their kids to ski, and it's good to see families introducing their kids to the sport. But IMO the OP came across pretty smug. That in itself wouldn't have been an problem if what they had been describing didn't include so much manifestly bad practice.
To answer the rhetorical question about whether the negative comments from instructors are based on enlightenment or self-interest I wold simply point out out that the instructors who regularly post on the forum, in my opinion, are nothing but generous with their info.
It's great to DIY if you save some money and get pleasure out of the process as well. For DIY ski teaching snowHeads seems to be a good place to come and share experience and perhaps ask for tips from people who have a bit of training and experience. But if you post in what some people consider to be a smug style (which I don't think was the intention, but that's the way it came across to me) you had better be prepared for some forthright examination of what you write.
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Related, but off topic - did anyone else who read this thread see the Canada tourist board ad in Metro today (P23, under the article on biathlon) Appears the Canadians are a bit less risk adverse about towing their kids on ski poles, Mums towing 2 kids and none of them are looking where they're going... Angry letter to the editor anyone?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'd love to contribute, but I've got to drop the boy off at his weaning lessons.....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ansta1,
I have to say that often (IMHO) those who are very good and naturally gifted at something, do not make the best instructors or teachers.
Teaching skills and techniques are often more important than the skills of the discipline being taught, especially at lower levels.
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| cathy wrote: |
| Summary: on the whole, skiers who don't see the value of lessons or coaching themselves as they didn't have any and never did them any harm, think it's fine to self-teach their kids. Skiers who do value coaching think it's a bad idea. |
I don't agree with that summary, at all, as it's a false dichotomy.
I value coaching, a lot (I've had quite a lot, with people on this thread for a kickoff!), and also think it's totally fine to casually coach your mates/girlfriend/kids as you see fit. Just like in any other aspect of life. I was taught maths by a maths professor, but if my gran wants to tell me a clever way of doing long division, then that's fine too.
Also:
| clarky999 wrote: |
| The thing about skiing is that doing it well is actually pretty complicated. |
The other thing about skiing (and snowboarding), is that doing it well enough for a lifetime of enjoyment, is actually incredibly easy, and anyone capable of standing up unassisted can do it perfectly well after a few days or weeks of trying. My brother is a good example of this. Never had a lesson, never wants one, skis with utterly appalling technique (sorry if you ever read this mate, but it's true  ), and absolutely loves it.
Flame THAT.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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kevindonkleywood,
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I have to say that often (IMHO) those who are very good and naturally gifted at something, do not make the best instructors or teachers.
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I agree completely and perhaps if the OP had indicated that he instructed in various other disciplines that may have had a slightly different response.
I am very good at very few things, but those I am very good at I wouldn't dare instruct others on as I have no experience of teaching and no patience. Hence I am not a teacher/instructor.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| paulio wrote: |
| The other thing about skiing (and snowboarding), is that doing it well enough for a lifetime of enjoyment, is actually incredibly easy, and anyone capable of standing up unassisted can do it perfectly well after a few days or weeks of trying. My brother is a good example of this. Never had a lesson, never wants one, skis with utterly appalling technique (sorry if you ever read this mate, but it's true ), and absolutely loves it. |
Interestingly, the thing that triggered me wanting to improve my skiing was meeting an (at the time) 76 year old ski instructor in Whistler. His view was that he could ski and enjoy it at 76 because he had technique.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| paulio wrote: |
| ...it's totally fine to casually coach your mates/girlfriend/kids as you see fit. Just like in any other aspect of life. I was taught maths by a maths professor, but if my gran wants to tell me a clever way of doing long division, then that's fine too. |
...and your kids.
I completely agree.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| paulio wrote: |
The other thing about skiing (and snowboarding), is that doing it well enough for a lifetime of enjoyment, is actually incredibly easy, and anyone capable of standing up unassisted can do it perfectly well after a few days or weeks of trying. My brother is a good example of this. Never had a lesson, never wants one, skis with utterly appalling technique (sorry if you ever read this mate, but it's true ), and absolutely loves it.
Flame THAT. |
Nothing to flame. My girlfriend is also a poor skier, considering how much ski experience she has, but she really loves it. In fact the only time she hates it is when I try to teach her anything, and the result is normally tears (often mine). She loves the whole ski holiday thing, cruising the pistes, hot chocolate to hot chocolate, skiing under blue sky with friends (and sometimes me), settling down with a good book in the afternoon, a child-like pleasure in seeing snowflakes fall from the sky, the scenery, the ambience. All of it. Isn't that all we could hope for from a skiing holiday?
Having said that, she'd like it a lot more if she skied better.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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And, most people I know who have had loads of coaching seem to enjoy their skiing less than the people I know who just hoon about.
They're always criticising themselves, beating themselves up for having one turn direction that's stronger than the other, and secretly trying to justify the thousands of pounds that they've spent trudging up and down a drag doing a load of tedious drills.
My bro, on the other hand, just hoofs around going 'wheeeeeee!' and having an amazing time, whilst spending a lot less money. I realise that's going to elicit a brain-destroying cognitive dissonance for most of you, but it's true. He has a better time skiing than you do, and he's absolutely rubbish.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| paulio wrote: |
| My bro, on the other hand, just hoofs around going 'wheeeeeee!' and having an amazing time, whilst spending a lot less money. I realise that's going to elicit a brain-destroying cognitive dissonance for most of you, but it's true. He has a better time skiing than you do, and he's absolutely rubbish. |
That used to be me. Then I discovered the intermediate plateau and frustration at my inability to ski icy conditions, or steep slopes, or fast or deep began to creep in. Still enjoyed going on ski holidays of course, but a little bit of frustration with the skiing. Quite by chance I ended up in a good ski school and began to improve. Result was I rediscovered my passion for skiing and began to enjoy it more than ever. Maybe there gets a time in every man's life when going 'wheeeeeee!' is no longer enough?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Maybe there gets a time in every man's life when going 'wheeeeeee!' is no longer enough? |
Lies!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| paulio wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Maybe there gets a time in every man's life when going 'wheeeeeee!' is no longer enough? |
Lies! |
OK, fair point. But going 'wheeeeeee!' when you're a good skier is so much more fun that going 'wheeeeeee!' when you're a bad skier.
As we've drifted slightly maybe a serious question - does anybody enjoy their skiing less as your ability and confidence has improved. Has it become joyless even though you are more proficient?
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rob@rar,
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My girlfriend is also a poor skier, considering how much ski experience she has, but she really loves it. In fact the only time she hates it is when I try to teach her anything, and the result is normally tears (often mine). She loves the whole ski holiday thing, cruising the pistes, hot chocolate to hot chocolate, skiing under blue sky with friends (and sometimes me), settling down with a good book in the afternoon, a child-like pleasure in seeing snowflakes fall from the sky, the scenery, the ambience. All of it. Isn't that all we could hope for from a skiing holiday?
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that could be my OH as well, but add large Brandy in the Hot Chocs
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Has it become joyless even though you are more proficient?
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The only joyless bit is trying to keep up with my son
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FAQ
