 Poster: A snowHead
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ski mottaret your kid should be accompanied by an instructor at all times
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Not at all, but self teaching without basic knowledge can be counter productive and when i read someones glowing report that promotes bad practice and dangerous methods i was stern in my response.
If you want to teach your kids yourself fine, but at least look around to see what the instrucotrs do and dont do... as i said i have seen lots of accidents due to people not knowing what they are doing, not to say that always happens or is inevitable...
And in later years when junior never seems to improve and has bad habits from the poor initial instruction they had he or she will probably get some lessons so we all win  over and out
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Both sides have a point here. I think Layne should be credited with starting a thread that at least isn't about tedious BASI/ISIA politics and provides some meat for a decent barney and think some of the personal aspects of the public flogging are a bit harsh.
I get the point about there being bad parental instructors and definitely think that a snowdome is the worst possible environment to try to teach kids yourself - too steep, crowded and snow too variable (kids can literally get run aground in the sugar mounds). But it's an extreme of instructor snobbery to suggest that all parents are irrepairably damaging their kids for ever by even starting with them. I've seen plenty of competent parents on isolated nursery slopes having fun with their kids. I suspect when they were old enough they'll have subsequently enrolled them in ski clubs so it's not as if they'll go a life time without appropriate professional guidance.
I've learnt a bit about what's considered good and bad practice for kids and can see the merits in it. My main takeaway though is that if a parent is teaching a kid it shouldn't be about the parent at all, the kid doesn't need to see the top of the mountain or have a longer run etc unless they've clearly outgrown where they are. If the parents are choosing location because they are bored with nursery slopes maybe that's when checking kids into some lessons is a good idea.
AFAIK instructors don't do specific exams in teaching kids so it's not as if they don't learn through experience as well.
And for what it's worth I'm sure all of us have seen ESF type crocodiles where the weaker kids at the back of a line of 12 aren't getting any sort of role models to follow, safety protection etc etc. I know better instructors will move the weaker kids up behind them but the realities of peak time instruction mean that not all kids get a perfect learning experience either.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 3-11-11 11:03; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| arbee wrote: |
| According to flying stantoni you should not be on a slope until you all can ski as fast as he wants to ski. Until then you are to stay on a dead flat section and keep out of everyone's way. |
Not at all.
I don't care how quickly or slowly you ski. All I ask is that you ski with consideration for other slope users.
Being a child or parent gives you no more or less rights to the slope than I have.
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So is it considered advisable for me to take my two year old, in boots that are about 2 sizes too big, on skis that are about 15cm too long, to the top of Tignes which is about 1500m too high, and teach him to ski by getting him to hold on to the end of a loaded shotgun (we haven't got our own poles, and this is the closest thing I could find in my cupboard).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| paulio wrote: |
| So is it considered advisable for me to take my two year old, in boots that are about 2 sizes too big, on skis that are about 15cm too long, to the top of Tignes which is about 1500m too high, and teach him to ski by getting him to hold on to the end of a loaded shotgun (we haven't got our own poles, and this is the closest thing I could find in my cupboard). |
To be honest you're mollycoddling the boy. I suggest abandoning him in a whiteout at the top of the Aiguille du Midi. After all kids learn best by having to work stuff out for themselves.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Or alternatively put your 2 year old at the top of the combe de saulire in 1850 at the end of the day when it's icy and cut up. Scoot around the back bit to avoid the short steeper section and tell them you're going to watch him/her come down the top bit and point out deficiencies in his technique. After all if it goes really wrong you can catch them can't you. 
On a serious note I don't think parents teaching kids is a bad thing but do think formal lessons are also good for lots of reasons already mentioned above. As for skiing between legs yep done that with my little uns and we came out unscathed, but I did see a particularly nasty incident last season where child was between the parents legs and I'd be surprised if the child came out of it unscathed and the parent guilt free.
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......WOW....
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In La Thuile a few years ago from a chairlift, I saw the ultimate 'competitive dad' type situation with this bloke just angrily going 'COME ON GET ON WITH IT!' whilst stood about 100m downhill of a boy of about 9 or 10 years old, and the boy literally doing that comedy frightened knees-knocking-together thing and crying out 'OH GOD. IS IT A RED RUN. IT'S NOT A BLACK RUN IS IT? NOOOOOOOOOO DAAAAAAAAD. PLEEEAAASE. HEEEEELP".
It was a blue run. Nearly flat. The poor kid was absolutely terrified. The rising panicky tone in his voice was something you might more closely associate with waking up finding yourself strapped to an operating table in an abandoned underground car park, rather than going for a pootle round a ski resort.
I must confess, from our vantage point on the chairlift, we laughed and laughed and laughed. I have almost never laughed so much in my life. We still laugh now when we talk about it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fattes13 said
When we started to teach our niece we decided that she would ski with my wife at first as she is technically perfect in stance and movement. Then as our Niece advanced I skied with her and pushed her skiing a little more towards carving and Freestyle stuff. But her core techniques are incredible. She now moves between leering from us and is a member of the local club race squad to allow her to develop with her peers and other coaches.
is leering a special technique required on the slopes - mind you that could be fun !!
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skimottaret, I said I would keep out of this thread 
OK what skimottaret says is valid and I have also seen many parents teaching their kids when they have no idea how to ski themselves, and then come on we are going down here with your frightened child in tow, makes me cringe.
The howevers are I have seen instructors do the same thing, not only on piste but off piste with groups of kids when they had no right to be there, instructors taking kids down off piste runs at 3pm in the afternoon when it has been nice and sunny all day and the avi risk has increased significantly. OUCH
With my own son, yes I taught him we spent a week in St Foy when he was 13 on day one we were on green runs all day with me shadowing and leading him, to say he feel over a lot is and understatement and to this day I do not have film of him on the first day. But I do for the rest of the week and by the end of the first week he was skiing reds pretty quickly, but not with alot of style.
So am I a good teacher, I would say NO, but I know my son very well, much better than an instructor would, his attitude to things and his natural althletic ability I took very much into consideration as to what we did and when. This meant that he was also doing basic jumps after about 3 to 4 days, his second week skiing was back at St Foy after quite a bit of time in the snow dome, the first day a nice snowy Saturday we were skiing thigh deep powder all day even on the piste, as they say after that, the rest is history 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It seems like everyone on this thread is violently agreeing that some parents can be great teachers, some can be awful teachers, some instructors likewise. Choose what's best for you and your kids. Teaching skiing is a completely different skill to skiing, and you can be brilliant at one and awful at the other. One of the reasons I trained as an instructor was so that I would be better able to teach my own children; I knew that without learning how to teach skiing I'd make a complete mess of it. But I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there who will be able to teach their children without getting a qualification first, and plenty who think they can but in reality don't do that good a job of it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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paulio, there are times when I think you're a seriously nasty man.
Last year I saw some tosswit taking his approximately five-year-old down the Valentin clamped between his knees at the end of a busy day; another one skiing round the pistes with his kid on a piece of rope; a kid sitting at the bottom of a lift with Dad's mate trying to convince him he wasn't totally worthless just because Dad had screamed at him and gone off up the chair on his own; and some retard having an argument with a lifty who wouldn't let him on a chairlift with his kid in a backpack.
People should have to apply for a licence to breed if you ask me.
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The trouble with sending kids off to ski school is that they come back as better skiers than you
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You know it makes sense.
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gazza2, Sorry Dyslexic as hell thankfully I am not responsible for any childs educational development.
kieranm, Nail and Head!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Layne, If you're doing what you believe is best for you and your kids and you do not feel you are putting yourselves or anybody else in danger, then good luck.
Stick by the FIS rules to keep the snowheads slope patrol off your back 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| paulio, there are times when I think you're a seriously nasty man. |
And the other times?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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kieranm, nail/head +1. I feel moved to confess I taught my daughter on her first day on skis. She was 4, an able child, physically, but also a dreadful moaner at times. Second week of a holiday in an obscure Austrian resort where the other 4 members of the family had spent the first week in ski school, she had been with grandma and in a creche thingy in our accommodation. At the presentation ceremony at the end of the week she was jealous as hell of her brothers' medals and susstificates and of all the little pink-clad cherubic girls of her age shaking hands with ski instructors and wanted to do ski school herself. I said ski school was very expensive, it was expensive to hire the gear, and that we'd try her out on the Sunday. We rented gear for her and I spent hours with her on the nursery slope, pulling her back up the 30 metres each time as I was not confident to take her on the drag lift. She just did "hands on knees" straight running the whole time. Enjoyed it, but was very bossy, shouting "faster please" as I plodded back up the slope towing her. We warned her that if there was any sign of wimping and moaning and groaning, there'd be no ski school - which she definitely saw as a reward.
I wouldn't have been competent to go beyond those first hours of very gentle "hands on knees" but I'm quite sure that it was that few hours which enabled her to cope, next day, with a completely German speaking class and in instructor who spoke no English at all. Very nice lady, very smiley, but German always sounds so cross!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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They're always cross because they lost the war.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
And the other times?
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Bit of a twerp. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| kieranm wrote: |
| I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there who will be able to teach their children without getting a qualification first, and plenty who think they can but in reality don't do that good a job of it. |
Yep.
Personally I loved ski school as a kid. It was a great experience.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My gf learned purely from her parents, and is an exceptionally good skier. Consistantly in ski school training the trainer singles her out as the shining example we should all aspire to. It's  annoying!!!
OTOH, she's Austrian, her parents are Austrian, they've all been skiing loads since they were tiny, they pretty much exclusively skied bumps or offpiste since she was around 10.
For most Brits teaching kids is probably a bad idea, 'cos most Brits don't realise that they themselves are bad skiers. 90% of the time when I see someone teaching their kid/family/friends I cringe, because I know that when the victim hits that plateau and actually wants to learn to ski properly, it's going to take longer and cost more, as they will have to break the crap habits they didn't realise they had first.
If or when I have kids, likely me and my gf will do most of the teaching (we're both instructors), I'd happily let my gf's 'rents teach them, but for sure they'll spend some time in ski school/club, as it's simply more fun for them to ski with friends their own age, and fun is what it's all about. Whilst my own parents have been skiing for ages, if/when they want (theoretically) to take my kid skiing, of course they can, but will be explicitly banned form trying to teach them anything, as I wouldn't want it to end up skiing like them.
 All this talk of potential kids is scary
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 3-11-11 21:56; edited 2 times in total
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gazza2, Fattes13, if you're going leering, shouldn't you be going to Lecht?
As for teaching the assorted Jnr's to ski, I've no doubt that the very basics will come from their mum, with me filming/photographing/picking back up/fielding in case they shoot off. Picked up one of those long reigns/harness things at the snowshow in preperation for this next time out in Jan. Frankly this whole 'nobody except teacher' thing sounds daft - after all who's taking the kids out after their 3 or 4 hours in the morning - mum and dad, and they don't stop learning just because teacher isn't there to authorize it. It's like something the missus was told recently, that teachers perfer it if children can't read when they go to school as it makes teaching them easier as everyone is at the same level. Excuse me but WTF is THAT!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Obviously it's perfectly ok for some parents to teach their own children and dumb for others to do the same. This is about 1) whether or not it's generally a good idea - my take: no, it's generally a bad idea as most skiers are keen but fairly incompetent and 2) should Layne have done it - my take: from what I've read so far, in balance probably not, but no way to be sure. My kids started with private lessons and continue to frequently have some form of lesson or coaching but I have always taught them myself as well as I can be sure that I am helping and not hindering.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Layne wrote: |
There was a really proud moment mid-week when the younger one skied past an adult ski group in line taking some tuition from their instructor. It was a nice slope, graded red, and I was just leaving her to her own devices. She has a tendency to sing or hum when she is relaxed and skiing comfortably. And she went down doing nice snowplough turns down past the group singing away. I couldn't help but feel a bit smug.
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Congratulations on teaching your kids to snowplough. You must be very talented. 
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| fatbob wrote: |
AFAIK instructors don't do specific exams in teaching kids so it's not as if they don't learn through experience as well.
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I've taken two exams specifically for teaching kids.
I have no problem with parents teaching their kids, just don't take them too steep too soon, and hold off giving them poles as long as possible.
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You know it makes sense.
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hold off giving them poles as long as possible
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One of the most debated pieces of advice ever!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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For most Brits teaching kids is probably a bad idea, 'cos most Brits don't realise that they themselves are bad teachers
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I think the more significant problem is that most Brits don't realise they are bad skiers. An Austrian with Austrian parents is in a rather different category!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I was thinking after reading all this may be I should hire in the following:
professional linguist to teach my kids to talk, someone to teach how them to eat without choking, the green cross code bloke from the seventies ads to teach crossing the road, Barbara Woodhouse to teach them how to handle our pet dog, JK Rowling should be able to teach them how to write without poking themselves in the eye with a pencil, Jaques Cousteau could teach them how to breathe properly........you get the point.
I feel bit sorry for the OP being lambasted in such rude fashion. The reaction seems rather excessive. Surely there is room for a bit of both. Maybe the OP is capable of teaching their children to reasonable standard as we all do as parents for most general stuff in life. Now if you want your child to become expert at anything then specific expert advice & tuition will be needed.
Of course one other major factor is cost. Some people cannot afford professional lessons all the time so entertain the choice of doing it themselves as an alternative to never skiing again.
I myself will be putting my kids in ski school in the mornings and then supervising them in continuing to practice what they have been taught giving any little bits of help they might need to continue ENJOYING THEMSELVES SAFELY!!!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jirac18, sure, if you haven't the dosh, then you haven't the choice, that's what money buys, choices. But the result is always better with a pro. Now some things are more important to learn from a pro than others. For instance, learning to speak the family tongue doesn't require a pro but learning to scuba dive is best taught by a pro. Learning to ski or drive is somewhere in between. The OP didn't sound like he couldn't afford a professional instructor. He elected to DIY.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've had a long and stressful day starting with a very grumpy 4yo at 6.30 this morning. And can only assume what has been posted today is in a similar fashion to yesterday. I saw a fellow snowhead at lunchtime who commented that I had been badly flamed. Perhaps fortunately I will not have time to read them or reply for 3-4 days - I am undecided if I will as I have plenty of other stress to deal with. I come here to share information, thoughts and advice with other like minded people, with perhaps a bit of banter on the side. The OP was never about bigging me up or trying to tell people you should do this. If anybody took it that way, or if I made it sound that way, than I can only apologise. It was not my intention. If any one has any particular questions or comments feel free to PM me as I got emails alerting me to those and like to take the trouble to read them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wow, pretty heated here. I agree with lessons and always book them.
I am also guilty of teaching my children all my bad habits and all the terrible crimes listed in this thread, this is because when I go on a family holiday I want to spend time with my children, especially on the slopes.
They are 4 and 6, so we spend this time on the nursery slopes and green runs.
Shoot me now.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Layne, Chill and don't worry about it. All forums are full of people who either help, share or just love to p i s s on your chips. End of the day its your life, your choice. I can't imagine you set out to either deliberately harm your kids or present them to danger or wee wee anyone off on SH. Only you know if you were truely capable of safely teaching your kids to ski. Any parent/skier/ski instructor etc who thinks they are perfect is a deluded muppet, we are human and get stuff wrong but mostly we do okay!! 
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| pam w wrote: |
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For most Brits teaching kids is probably a bad idea, 'cos most Brits don't realise that they themselves are bad teachers
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I think the more significant problem is that most Brits don't realise they are bad skiers. An Austrian with Austrian parents is in a rather different category! |
Oops, I meant skiers not teachers!
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Strikes me from re-reading the thread there are lots of ski snobs out there who probably think they are better than they are. I hate snobbery in sport, used to get a lot of that when I played golf. You can always spot them a mile off "all the gear and no idea". As long as learning is fun and as safe as can be reasonably be expected what right does anyone have to moan. I sometimes take up far too much space on the piste but thats basically tough on those that don't like it. I try to be as considerate as possible but sometimes it doesn't stop people cocking a snoot down their pretentious noses.
To all anti teach your own child posters please take a second to think if you are maybe being a liitle unreasonable (ie A SKI SNOB) coz its really unattractive.
I do qualify that last rant by acknowledging that some of the critisism has been constructive and considerate with regard to general safety and limitation of risk.
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there are lots of ski snobs out there who probably think they are better than they are.
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I don't think that emerges from this thread. Rather the reverse, some of the people who have been critical (and might well have been rather over-emphatic in their criticism, IMV) have been of the view that they are NOT good enough to teach their kids. Either not good enough skiers, or not knowledgeable enough about the progression required/how to teach. Or both. It takes a bit of knowledge about skiing to know you are not very good at it - I've skied masses, and had loads of lessons, and now know enough to know that I'm not very good at it. I did spend a day with my 4 year old, as I explained, but no way would I try to teach a child to ski - though once they've got the basics from an instructor, and can do controlled snowplough turns down a gentle slope, I'll happily spend many an hour with them, just letting them get on with it.
Most of us mess around with our kids/grandkids and are happy to supervise, keep them safe, buy them hot chocolates, dig the snow out of their noses when they face plant. But we wouldn't call that "teaching".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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dig the snow out of their noses when they face plant
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Only one of the many reasons why I have never been tempted by parenthood. Gross.
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pam w, Maybe thats just my interpretation that some folk are rather unecessarily being snooty at the OP's standards but I see your point.
I definiately agree that there's a big difference between supervising and teaching. I am quite happy to supervise but simply don't know enough about proper ski technique to teach. I need little or no education at all to see when someone is dropping their hands and being lazy and its one thing I am always conscious of for my own skiing.
I've never had a professional lesson but have been taught by an expert skiier friend. It helps that both he and I are qualified teachers of adults (not at skiing) so perhaps what is most important in all of this as a teacher/supervisor is having perspective and a clear understanding of how people learn, including children and then grading the level of instruction required against a clear set of objectives.
Bite size chunks of learning and plenty of patience needed. I was dreadful at teaching my daughter to ride a bicycle from scratch but now she has mastered the basics I am plenty able to teach her and supervise her in becoming a proficient cyclist. I think same applies to her skiing
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FAQ
