Technique improvement - is rubbish equipment a help or hindrance?

A snowHead

What it says on the tin Very Happy

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OK - a bit more background probably required. This summer I've been slalom training at the local dryslope to try and improve my general skiing ability and on-piste technique. I've just been using the club skis though (my all-mountain skis being a) not at all appropriate and b) far too new to subject to Dendix) - the club skis are Salomon Ve with edges that would have trouble cutting butter Sad

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My rationale here is that since the skis are doing nothing to help me I have to work much harder to get the turns in, get the edges to hold etc., and mistakes are punished much more obviously. Hence it should be forcing me to get the technique right to get anywhere at all, rather than letting good gear cover over my mistakes. Anyone agree that this is a good idea? Obviously I could go faster on decent skis - no argument there - but that's not my prime objective at the moment.

However, while I think I make a fair fist of smooth flowing courses, where it's more a matter of timing, I really do suffer on courses with more tight turns, when I'm really having troubles either making the turn and either skid too low and finish the course mostly in defensive recovery mode or ski out altogether.

So, there's quite obviously a point at which you can't push rubbish skis any harder. It would seem sensible that this also stops you moving onto the next technical level....or not? And most importantly... how can you tell when you've got to that point?

A snowHead

GrahamN,

IMO Dendix is just better than doing nothing and I don't think any improvement will be too apparent until you get onto real snow.
So I wouldn't beat myself up for two reasons, a, the surface isn't very grippy reagarding edges, and b, Unless you use very good skis which will shave the mat - good for the skier, bad for the Ski complex - you have another compromise here as well, ie blunt edges
Those issues and the boredom factor of skiing on plastic make dry slopes just better than no practice at all for me.

That said, if I am going to try and get the PSB in LDA then I will probably have a few hours on my local slope...!!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

GrahamN, I think it does help in the long run to ski on rubbish skis with no edges. In order to get any edge hold at all you do have to be much more correct, therefore your technique will improve. As JT, says, you may not notice the technical improvement until you get back on the snow (PSB), but you'll REALLY appreciate your good skis then.

I've just about got the hang of my old P50s again now - but I can't wait to get back on my Fischers!!!

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easiski, thanks for the confirmation, but I suspected you'd say that from preveious posts on related subjects Wink

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JT, I think you a) slightly misunderstand me and b) are wrong Very Happy

. The point of the exercise isn't to try and get orgasmic skiing on Dendix (we both know that only comes from the great off-piste Wink

), but technique improvement/refinement - so I'm not beating myself up, but engaging in "constructive self-criticism".

While I agree with you that Dendix is not a patch on real snow for enjoyment, and that just cruising down a dry slope is marginally less interesting than examining your belly-button fluff, putting gates on there completely transforms the exercise - my first run down was a complete disaster and major eye-opener. I can already see a major improvement in my skiing, although that may not have been too difficult as I'd not really tried too hard on-piste for the last few years, concentrating on getting to grips with the heaven that is off-piste. If nothing else the decreasing frequency of falls is evidence of major improvements! I just hope it's not instilling any habits that will screw up my (albeit still pretty variable) off-piste technique.

As for the "how can you tell when you've gone as far as you can with rubbish skis?" question, I'll try answering it myself. The trite answer is "almost certainly quite a way beyond where YOU think it is". Maybe the more helpful one, in a gates context, is "when you ski any course reliably, and don't get any faster however hard you push yourself".

Clearly I still have a way to go before I exhaust what the club skis can do, as even with a fairly tight bendy course I can normally manage just one run when everything clicks and I make it down. It will also force me to start assessing when I need to make a step turn or something similar to get around a sharp bend (one that those with excellent technique and skis, e.g. easiski, like Tom or that young lad I mentioned, carve with no apparent effort), as at the moment I haven't the presence of mind to try something different when a carved turn isn't going to work. What was that Klammer quote "Aim for the skier to ski as slowly as possible consistent with the skis going as fast as possible" - or something like it? The possible danger is that you get used to taking a line that would be far too conservative if you had decent skis. In my case that's probably still a good thing, though, as I still end up heading too straight at the gates after I get past the first couple and my good intentions head out the window.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

GrahamN, Sharp skis will help - developing the correct angles and sensations with blunt ones will be harder. See if you can find a s/h pair ....

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GrahamN,

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

GrahamN, You are quite right in your assumptions, but I don't think you should worry about a conservative line at the moment. This is all quite new to you as I understand it, and you cannot go fast in a race until your technique is good, after that you concentrate on line. If you can ski a good line smootly you will be fairly quick anyway. After that you can think about TRYING to go fast. Trying before you're ready will just make you slower (due to mistakes or loss of line). Very Happy

ski, "developing the correct angles and sensations with blunt ones will be harder." I thought that was the point! I don't suppose you're going to be able to join us in October?

After all it is free

easiski, Working on October.

What I was trying to get to is that you can carve, to a limited extent, with blunt skis on plastic, but you can't develop the same edge angles or pressure on the skis, compared to sharp ones - meaning that IMHO you won't get the same feelings through you feet.

ski, No, but you learn to be more delicate and responsive to the skis - I think it helps awareness. After all, if you can carve on crap skis on Dendix then you're not going to any probs on good skis and good snow! Very Happy

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easiski, Have to be pretty sensitive to carve sharp ones... Laughing

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ski, What do you mean by sharp? Can't be that sharp or it wouldn't be an arc. wink

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easiski, Sharp skis ! arrrrrrrrrrrrgh Laughing

snowbunny, I actually wear a facemask (a bit like a welders mask without any glass in it) but have a helmet on order. I've never had a pole hit me in the face, although the psychological effect of the guard (stopping you shying away from the pole) is quite noticeable.

easiski, ski - sort of agree with you both, but wont be rushing out to get new skis just yet - or at least until after the Mondiale. I did see the guy who I got my Legends from is selling off some new Omecarve 63s though......must resist (anyway brand new skis on Dendix would be a waste). I expect there will be a crop of 2nd hands showing up when people have to indulge themselves with the new season's gear and start selling off their old ones.

You know it makes sense.

GrahamN, Does your slope have misting ? If so, new skis are not a waste. I know I've said this before (lots of times), but a combination of misting and hard wax will prevent damage to your skis. Omecarve 63s would be fun ! wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

ski,

A snowHead

easiski, ski, is it my turn with the thicky baton here, or is this a private joke? That's fine if it is...just as long as I know Very Happy

Naughty, naughty ski - I'm trying so hard to be good, stop tempting me. BTW - it does normally have misting, but this summer they've kept it off while they've been replacing matting and in an attempt to let the greenery die off - fat chance in a British summer rolling eyes

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A snowHead

GrahamN, er - I think easiski, thought I meant sharp turns...... Puzzled

and - go on - you know it makes sense ! If it helps (on our little slope) sharp skis are worth about a second - on a 8 second course......

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

GrahamN, Surrey - Sandown ?

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ski, Hampshire - Aldershot I think. Sandown's too tiddly for words! I know I worked there!!! Laughing

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

GrahamN

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ski, thanks for the explanation...so it is my turn with the thicky baton for a while. And yes, it's Aldershot, which is only 10 mins down the road from this bit of Surrey. Didn't even know they had a slope at Sandown. The other close one is Bracknell, but they've gone Permaslush - and I believe their bunch have actually come over to us for a session or so.

snowbunny possibly my description doesn't do it any favours, but it's not too bad and is actually nice and cool - not looking forward to the helmet actually on that count!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

GrahamN, I really hope that you will be pleasantly surprised on the cooling capabilities of modern helmets. I skied in a helmet 1st time last winter, no overheating at all- and most importantly it did'nt mess up my hair wink

After all it is free

GrahamN, See you at the last regional then ? High Wycombe - October ? snowHead

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ski, highly unlikely Shocked

...you missed the word "training" (as opposed to "racing") in my introductory ramble Wink

. That actually goes for most of our lot too - most of us are middle-aged/oldies and a bit too laid back for anything too competitive Very Happy

. Maybe next year?

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

GrahamN, after you've got a taste for it at the PSB? Little Angel

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easiski, there are two things you need to know about my cunning plan. First, it is cunning Wink

- and second, that it is a Puzzled

...........well actually it doesn't really hack it on either count Very Happy

!

GrahamN, See you next year then... Laughing

BTW there are quite few

You know it makes sense.

In the depths of the snow-free period of winter 1988-89 in the PDS I spent a couple of weeks repping on my boss's old Atomic ARC Bionic GS red sleds. Obviously had been a totally fantastic ski as they were still occasionally a delight to ski on in the right conditions. Had to be exactly the right conditions, edge angle, etc. as both skis were missing 60 cm long and 1.5 cm wide strips of PTex underfoot and had rivets protruding to edge height where the edges had been rivetted back in.

They certainly taught me sensitivity and the need to get edgeing "just right"!

No-one else could believe I was using them...

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

GrahamN,

Try skiing just on you left foot ... likie a video I'm sure you have watched.

You might not want to do this from the top of Aldershot to start with snowHead

A snowHead

GrahamN, Also - muck about on a wobble or balance board. That will teach your left foot to pay attention !

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

David Murdoch, Sounds like the first generation VR27s I had. Factory skis when new - 204cms(!) - edges put back in with some sort of boat epoxy. When you got it right it felt the bees knees, and when you didn't they just didn't turn at all! Shock

I have vivid memories of heading straight for a pylon somewhere between Val D and Tignes! Shocked

eventually I pulled the edge right out of one ski just under the binding (wondered why I was ski-ing so badly the rest of the day), and the guy in the shop just fell about when I asked if he could repair them. Laughing

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

GrahamN,

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Amost anything is better than nothing, but if you want to learn how to make hard tight turns on good equipment with sharp edges and solid construction that will transmit good force to those edges, then that equipment is what you need to practice on.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

GrahamN,

If you mean the Elan SLX fusion, which is a slalom ski at about 164, I would think a new set would be a bit of a waste of the dry slope.
I used them in deep snow..I know, I know...bad move.., and they were quite usable but not ideal there, but on the hard pack they cut like a knife. More discerning folks than I rate them better than the Rossi 9s.

Help!!

Technique improvement - is rubbish equipment a help or hindrance?

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