 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My assumption is that what you are really trying to achieve is the same amount of edge angle/inclination (whatever you want to call it) on both skis. Obviously, the position of your shins has a big influence on this.
As the Hermann Maier photo shows, this isn't possible throughout (or at least not when you're adopting a stance wide enough for racing). I guess that avoiding the A frame is most important during the turn, rather than in the transition.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Funny isn't it, old style skiing was done with the legs tight together ensuring that the skis edged identically, new style is with the legs apart for greater stability, the natural shape for the legs to adopt to do this is the /\ if instructors insist on the shins being parallel thats going to really hurt the knees as they are not meant to bend that way, potentially I'd have thought it could create long term health problems with the knee joints, in the short term it's going to make people ache much more than they have to, I'm only guessing about the long term implications by the way, we need a medical expert to clarify weather or not I'm correct
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D G Orf, I don't find it that uncomfortable myself. The way I do it (which may be wrong) keeps the knee fairly naturally aligned. If you look at the last frame of the Maier sequence, you'll see that although his feet are a long way apart, his legs are fairly parallel all the way down and there's nothing unnatural about how his knees are bent - it's a good strong aligned position.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I Have only recently taken up Skiing, and during my lessons my instructor complemented me on the fact that I wasnt 'A framing'.
My early thoughts on this (and as I say, I havnt skiied for long) is that it is more a case of getting good habbits when learning, ie not to A frame, and that by getting the basics correct in the first place will help when completing advanced skiing in the future.
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Arno, that's what I inferred from som eof the posts, including one terribly complex one from physicsman. With which I have to partially disagree as I don't see edge pressure, and hence the variable effects of reverse camber coming (literally) into the equation unless a 50/50 distribution is assumed, and we seem to have agreed that's not a good idea unless you're doing nice slow demo turns on a beautifully pisted and gentle slope. (Pauses to catch breath.) Which may, incidentally be all that the PSIA are looking for and all entensions to the ll'l requirement are bogus.
D G Orf, a /\ shape is only going to cause trouble if your knees are straight. Once they're properly bent and you're angulating well, then keeping shins ll'l isn't a big problem. Especially if feet hip/shoulder width apart.
Still confused after all these years, me...
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 16-08-05 14:21; edited 1 time in total
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David Murdoch, physicsman does seem to find exceptionally complex ways to explain things which seem quite obvious inuitively (to me anyway). Once you understand that the more you angle a ski, the sharper it will turn (assuming you have the same amount of pressure on it) it becomes pretty obvious that it's a good thing to have both skis angled approximately the same amount. That said, you can get away with being less than perfect on this aspect if you're just skiing recreationally on piste. The thing that got me thinking about it was skiing bad snow off piste. You can't manipulate the inside ski so easily in breakable crust so it's all the more important that both skis are steering the same course of their own accord.
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| Quote: |
if instructors insist on the shins being parallel thats going to really hurt the knees as they are not meant to bend that way
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not really. the way it has been explained to me, the turn-out comes from the hip, not the knee. If the skis are parallel and the lower legs are A-framed, then the inside knee is actually twisted in. turning out from the hip means that the knee is pointing over the ski, and thus less prone to injury. Having said that, however, I know that I don't do it right! The tip that you should imagine you are holding a football between the thighs is helpful, if sometimes distracting! Sometimes it helps with the snowboard too - "steer" by opening the [front] knee.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I suppose as a PSIA member I feel obliged to speak!
I'll start by saying the answer is complex. Look at still photographs of WC skiers and among these wonderful athletes you will see examples of "A-framing". What is "A-framing"? When looking at a skier coming toward you their outside or downhill shin is at a greater angle than their inside or uphill shin. I will simply say it is a result of the g forces, athleticism, etc., involved in ski racing.
Now for PSIA. I'm not an ed staff member.....merely a level III or full cert. I will start with the general premise that technique is driven by technology, ie., the changes in ski shape. I hazard to use the term "shaped skis", because skis have always been shaped to some degree. Inside foot activity, the movements of the foot/leg on the inside of the turn have become increasingly important in the past five years as opposed to in the past when ski instruction stressed movements involving the outside or downhill ski. Why? Recent ski design enables skiers to create turns with subtle tipping or turning movements.
So.......rather than complicate matters with an opus I'll stop here. I'll add one tongue in cheek comment that I often make to students when attempting to urge them to increase edge angles via tipping the inside ski on edge. I suggest they increase the activity of the inside leg and not worry about the outside leg. I tell them the outside leg is stupid and will simply mimic or follow the lead of the inside leg. I'll add one wonderful mantra from a well known educator here in Colorado. "The inside leg is where the activity is and the outside leg is where the action is."
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I want to add one more point. The post from epicski is an old one. I no longer post at epic for a variety of reasons. The main reson is all my old friends are gone. A couple of the folks who participated in that thread are among the best minds that I know in ski teaching. "Hapski" hasn't been at epic for years and is a Rock Mountain PSIA examiner. His name is Tom Hazard, aka Hap Hazard. Robin is Robin May my former boss, a Canuck, and longtime ski school director in the west. Notorious Spag is a SSD who hasn't posted at Epic for years. Physicsman is a college professor from the east, a part-time ski instructor and the resident epic Sir Isaac Newton. Yes.....a few of the epic discussions tended to get a little esoteric.
Ahh the good old days.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Could a lot of the discussion simply be local terminology/descriptives as neither on skinny skis (1994ish) nor parabolics (2003ish) has my fave teacher (ESF) ever mentioned A-Framing nor keeping my shins parallel?
Rusty, why are parallel shins so important from a PSIA cert point of view? Or is this purely in one exercise (tramlining).
Cheers!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think parallel shins (ie no A frame) is important not just in PSIA. In a true A frame the outside ski will be on edge and the inside ski quite flat and not doing much at all. I think looking for "parallel shins" is just an indicator that both skis are being worked. However, to a certain degree it is dependent on physical make up, and there is a noticeable difference between men and women because of the differences in the way they are built. A woman may appear to have an A frame when in fact the edge angle on both skis is the same, so it is not a true A frame. So I would prefer to look at what is happening with the skis on the ground before looking higher up.
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Hmmm, OK, becoming less confused. It now seems as though...
BASI looked for an A-frame in the 80s/90s as in probably indicated good 100% distribution on the outside whereas as we all re-learn to be a little more flexible with distribution it becomes anathemic?
Whereas PSIA use parallel shins as a similar diagnostic for 50:50 weighting when demoing on gentle gradients?
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| Whereas PSIA use parallel shins as a similar diagnostic for 50:50 weighting when demoing on gentle gradients? |
I wouldn't necessarily say "50:50 weighting" but certainly that the skis are at a similar angle in the snow.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Murdoch,
Can't say that's what PSIA do, was talking more generally. And I don't think you need 50:50 weighting to have the same edge angle on both skis - your weight could still predominantly be on the outside ski with just a "feathered" weight on the inside ski.
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Poster: A snowHead
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David Murdoch, I'd agree with beanie1. Let's not start mixing up edge angles and weight distribution!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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used to have an a frame prob myself....one of the key things I did to rectify was ensure good boot set-up ie. quality insoles and professionally checked canting coupled with wider stance and more square skiing style has done the job...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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beanie1, Talking good sense as usual!
There are several good reasons why an A frame is bad. It's not just about edge angles, although this is clearly a factor. If your outside knee is tilting inwards, firstly that's bad for your knee and secondly it blocks the leg movement from the hip. When your hips are blocked you can't angluate. You then get a bit of hip rotation which leads to a flatter ski ............. Of course some of us do have knees which point in naturally, and then it's a bit difficult to keep your shins parallel. D G Orf, if you keep your feet approx hip width apart it's no effort to keep your shins parallel, shoulder width is an entirely different thing. I'm not sure though about your reason for legs jammed together, I always thought it was to enable us to push the heels of the skis round the corner more easily.
David Murdoch, I don't think BASI ever looked for an A frame - certainly I was shouted at in the early 70's for "ski-ing like a girl" (which meant the same thing) and I can remember several people failing various grades in both the 70s and the 80s for an A frame. It was certainly a Grade 1 failure in the 80s. End form parallels, though, stayed with us into the early 90s (feet and legs together). YUK
Edging the inside ski does not require weighting or pressure.
Many novice/early intermediate skiers have a problem with pushing forward into their boots, and the consequent tendency to collapse the turning knee inwards which gives rise to nasty side effects mentioned above.
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Glad to see that beanie, arno and easiski are agreeing with me!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski,
Thanks!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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beanie1, Arno, sorry for mixing it up! I think I know what I meant, but clearly it meant nothing outside my own head.
easiski, Oh! OK, I was under some impression that it was once a "Good" thing to do. Clearly completely mistaken there then.
OK, now I understand why A-framing is bad (and that it's always been bad).
...Err, have we done this to death yet?
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| Arno wrote: |
| David Murdoch, I'd agree with beanie1. Let's not start mixing up edge angles and weight distribution! |
Nice irony, Arno, for is it not the case that, the greater the A-frame, the less independent edge angle and weight distribution are?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| Glad to see that beanie, arno and easiski are agreeing with me! |
don't get too used to it 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, Arno, I am using the simplifed PSIman A.K.A. Wiener Skimodell visual aid.
easiski, you would certainly be right for weight distribution above the waist- but does that not imply a strong pelvis and associated muscles, and not exactly 'easy' skiing?
I also admit that PSIman shows my sentence above to be badly phrased- his edge angles are a direct result of his weight distribution.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have to start by saying I'm really impressed by the discussion/responses here. I'm also a sensitive to the fact that from across the pond folks might respond to me saying that by thinking.....we're oh so glad the Colorado ski instructor likes our answer 
I would wholeheartedly agree to be cautious when making a nexus between lower leg angles and weight distribution. I would get a hearty srgument from many of my peers however, "weight" and "pressure" are often confused. I can move my center of mass to the inside of a medium radius turn and not feel any difference in terms of pressure on my outside foot. What we "feel" is most often a result of pressure building during the course of a turn on the outside leg. Tighten the turn, or go faster in a turn or steepen the pitch and we "feel" more. I don't want to open the centripetal/centrifugal/force vectors discussion.
I'm just a dumb old ski instructor. If I had any sense I would have replied in a more succinct manner.
Parallel tib fibs indicate an active inside leg.
Why is that good or conversely why is A-framing bad? We have two legs.....why not involve both?
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You know it makes sense.
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I avoided that thread like the plague. In the inimitable words of our friends from New York.....fahgetaboutit.
OK I'll take a stab. I want to stress from the outset this is merely my humble opinion. In addition it will probably go firmly against the grain of anything you have heard prior to .......2000. Are their still a multitude of folks teaching and talking about active weight transfer? You betcha. I'm interested in opining at this site because it helps my teaching to make generic arguments and I perceive you folks as a bright group.
Imagine you are standing on a bus, the vehicle is making a long sweeping turn to the right at 30 kilometers per hour. Your weight IS, in fact, going to the right along with the bus and all the other passengers. If you are facing forward it FEELS as though your weight wants to go to the left. You probably manage that feeling by a blend of concentric and eccentric muscular contractions. In layman's terms you probably lean a little to the right by lengthening or extending the left leg and flexing or shortening the right leg. You balance.
In this particular case, how can you feel as though you have moved your weight to the right leg if you wanted to? I suggest via extension of the right leg. Have you in reality adjusted where your center of mass is? If you remain balanced......no. If you extend your right leg too much you'll lose balance and end up in the left seats. It is no different while skiing.
I don't talk much in my teaching about weight transfer. I think it's exceedingly archaic. Tip the skis, turn the skis, or blend the two movements.
As an aside, a well known ski educator with PSIA here in the Rocky Mountain division recently pointed out to me "flexing the ankle" is a particularly vague term. It can be dorsi flexed or plantar flexed
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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David Murdoch, sounds very close!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat, thanks! Phew, just about got there in the end...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Murdoch, of course, by me saying it, it obviously is wrong.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wear The Fox Hat, well obviously . So, an A-frame indicates that the inside ski is not being used effectively (or perhaps at all) and parallel shins indicates that the inside ski is being used to assist in the turn?
If so, it follows that it is no indicator, at all, as to weight distribution.
Is that right?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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marc gledhill, it shouldn't be used as an indicator of weight distribution, but some seem to confuse weight, pressure and position/alignment.
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David,
I guess I would only add a couple of points. "Parallel" used to refer to the skis. We don't teach a particular turn type these days. In other words, we don't take a student and say....today we're going to teach Tom a wedge turn, Robert a wedge christie, and Peter a parallel turn. All of this evolves from how successful one is with particular movements.
There are only three things one can do to a ski.....tip them, turn them, and push or pull on them. This is a topic for another day, however, every ski turn involves those three elements to one degree or another.
Go to Ron LeMaster's website and you will find innumerable examples of WC racers with their skis in a slight wedge/ slight divergence/a-framed/ o-framed (the opposite of a-frame  )weight forward/weight back,etc
www.ronlemaster.com
So parallel is not a goal. The right movements and probably more precisely the right sequence of movements is the goal. Having said that, a-framing is merely a symptom. It may be due to an alignment issue, a morphology issue such as "Q-angle" in women, or a myriad of other things.
I'll probably regret making mention of this, however, one of the most prevalent reasons folks have a little a-framing is "over rotation" with their pelvis. Try this exercise. Stand in a doorway and create a little angulation. Get in a position akin to a WC ski racer in a turn. If you are simulating turning left, rotate your hips to the left and you will eventually move your right femur to the left.
On the topic of weight distribution I cannot say strongly enough that folks should forget about it. I introduced "it's puking" to describe local vernacular for a heavy snowfall. I'll add the phrase "geeked up" to describe someone worrying or focusing on where their weight is as in fouled up or.
If more skiers would simply go ski and stop getting bogged down in technique I'd be out of a job. Just go "turn em" turn them left and follow that with a turn to the right!
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Rusty,
I have a weight distribution problem.
It's all going to my gut.
Should I focus on my weight, or just keep drinking?
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Wear The Fox Hat, Focus inside of the knee and tip well!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Rusty Guy, Just to clarify, I'm using parallel only in the context of shin position. And I'm probably "geeked up"...
At risk of moving onto another day's topic, "tip them, turn them, and push or pull on them". I'd be rather disappointed if an instructor simply said ( in advance here...) "just turn them". But seriously, let's take a fairly steep slope, say 35 degrees. While I'm certainly going to turn, is my dynamic motion is going to be encapsulated by tipping, turning or pushing/pulling - is it not more likely a combination of all 4?
Actually I think this thread's in danger of getting all 'geeked up'. Sorry, my fault, I started it - off to work now.
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David Murdoch,
Rusty said:
"tip them, turn them, and push or pull on them ... every ski turn involves those three elements to one degree or another."
So, I think he is saying that it is a combination of all 3 (or 4 - but I think pull = negative push)
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FAQ
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