 Poster: A snowHead
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I had a lesson in Feb where, inter alia, two things were picked up. One due to laziness, other due to ski fashion.
I was (lazily) not angulating enough, and because everyone was saying you should, I was allowing my weight to distribute (drift?) across both skis more than it should (no absolutes but - for me, the way I ski, my pace, my conditions, etc).
Symptoms? Mild but perceptible breakaway/instability at or just after apex of turn. (Typical really).
Re-distributing weight more on downhill ski was easy, adding angulation a little harder. But results exactly what I wanted. (Back to solid carves).
However, as the weight dist'n thing is so topical, I had focused on that until I noticed a (still) pic on the CSIA site with an instructor looking as though he was carving a pretty strong arc at speed (difficult to tell from a still I agree) and the striking element was his strong angulation. Which got me thinking...
So, question. (And I appreciate these are aspects of the same thing...both are important, but is there a hierarchy?)
Does good, appropriate angulation make more of a difference than well tuned weight distribution?
Comments invited...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Murdoch, I'll take a punt on angulation. This is on the grounds that it's not much use having the correct weight distribution (whatever that is, I know  s have debated that recently) if only a small fraction of your weight is acting through either of them because your centre of gravity is so far removed from either of them. In such a circumstance, both skis can slip away, whereas a wobbly outside ski you can get away with, provided you've got a decent amount of weight above the inside one. I think good angulation in itself is likely to help with weight distribution anyway.
As ever, I'm interested in what the pros have to say...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Murdoch, good question, unfortunatly I don't know the answer, I've reached the stage where it all becomes second nature and I don't have to think about it, however I think that I get the balance and weight distribution correct and then adjust the angulation
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| laundryman wrote: |
I think good angulation in itself is likely to help with weight distribution anyway.
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that's what i'd say - get the angulation right and the weight distribution is likely to follow... although it's probably quite difficult to get the right angulation unless your weight is in the right place 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd say that weight distribution is a result of angulation. I'm not an expert and haven't skiied for 1 and a half years though, so feel free to ignore me 
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The purpose of angulation, the reason we have a "kink" at the hips, instead of just leaning our whole body inwards (called "inclination"), is to increase the edge angle ("tilting") of the skis as much as possible, while keeping the weight as much as possible over the outside ski.
There's a lot of talk nowadays about "50/50 weight distribution with the modern carving ski technique" - that's all well and good when describing pretty railroad tracks on flatter slopes, but in extreme situations (high speeds, steep slopes) you still see today's racers with 80-90% of their weight on the outside ski.
So, to actually answer your question, angulation is more important because it will naturally facilitate better weight distribution. (Fore-aft weight distribution is of course another matter...)
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I would have said angulation as it is -amongst other things- the way bike riders keep the tyre grip on power and that technique lends itself to skiing of course. But Martin got there before me and explains it much better. Through all the changes in ski technology skiers will still have to create a really good edge. Going faster means they will bank further so angulation becomes even more crucial to stop a ski from slipping out from under...!!
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Thanks folks, that aligns nicely with what I was thinking.
Oddly enough it was all really a laziness thing. I spend a lot of time skiing well within my envelope (various reasons, many of them social, and I do try and push things whenever/wherever possible, honest) so was slipping into bad habits that I really should have been able to self correct but hadn't thought about enough.
They weren't causing enough problems, most of the time. Really I was just being less efficient on hard pack/ice than I felt I had been previously. Too much powder skiing probably (I wish).
D G Orf,
IMHO I think that's exactly when it all starts going wrong! - second nature, don't have to think about it = unconscious competence. The next step on the cycle without conscious monitoring/coaching is unconscious incompetence...and I just soooo don't want to go there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Murdoch, Martin Bell, said it all.
Martin Bell, the point about the racers with nearly all their weight on the outside ski, is what I was trying to get across in another thread. If WC skiers do it, then it must be right! They are the best skiers in the world.
Point to note about angulation,, It's very important that you have good stance before trying to angulate. If not it is likely to cause to to sit back on your heels, and generate more speed than you can handle.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, WC racers also wear skin tight suits.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, I semi-disagree about your WC point. Surely yes, because of that it is a good technique, but when you're not skiing at the extremes that they are, is it really neccessary?
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mark_s, I would say no.
But then, many on here are of the opinion that I am wrong 90% of the time.
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You know it makes sense.
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mark_s,
I agree with Wear The Fox Hat,
I think to be a versatile skier you should be able to play around with and adapt your weight distribution according to what it most appropriate for the current conditions, slope etc.
Racers are generally skiing on steep, icy courses where more weight on the downhill ski is what is needed.
Actually, reading back up the thread I see that's what Martin Bell was saying.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I wasn't asking, I was pointing that out to easiski. Personally, I think that unless the conditions merit it, it is a pointless waste of energy.
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Poster: A snowHead
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mark_s, "when you're not skiing at the extremes that they are, is it really necessary?"
I get lots of fun/challenge out of fast, steep icy runs. Not, I hasten to add, conditions that are anywhere near a WC DH, but IMHO, often, for me, where, and what I sometimes like to ski, then yes it is necessary.
To complete a circle on the conversation, it was precisely the fact that modern skis do not demand these degrees of effort and precision in "easy" situations that allowed me down the insidious path of laziness. I'm not blaming my tools, only myself 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Murdoch, unconcious incompetance comes before training and practice, unconcious competance comes after, a classic example is that of the child learning to walk
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As easiski says, we've tried to debate this outside ski thing before. I tried to compile a list of advantages to weighting both skis but people were loathe/reluctant/hesitant to contribute I suspect because a) no-one really knows b) no-one wanted to nail their colours on what is a surprisingly controversial subject.
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Whatever works works. And different things work for different people.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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mark_s, and that means what?
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It means you can argue all you like, but the issue is a matter of opinion more than anything else. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, and it is individual preference (or how you were taught) which you use.
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mark_s, Please tell us - what are the advantages and disadvantages?
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Good question. I don't know. I'm not a highly experienced skiier as you and easiski obviously both are. I was just noting that it is based a lot on personal preference.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| David Murdoch, unconcious incompetance comes before training and practice, unconcious competance comes after, a classic example is that of the child learning to walk |
Don't you mean 'subconscious'?
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spyderjon, possibly
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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D G Orf, My take: Unconscious incompetence--conscious incompetence--conscious competence--unconscious competence. spyderjon, The final stage denotes the ability to complete a complex task without even considering it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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snowbunny, that's how I thought it was supposed to go, for on piste skiing I've achived the final stage although it drops one level in bad weather, my off piste is more or less at the consious incompetance level
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snowbunny, D G Orf, the point is that it's a cycle. without external coaching, etc. unconscious competence slides into unconscious incompetence. spyderjon, skiing sadly is not as simple as walking. We can all (mostly) walk after all...
DGO you may be lucky enough to ski perfectly and never acquire bad habits, sadly I am not...
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You know it makes sense.
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David Murdoch, I'm not so sure, I think it depends on how you learnt, in my case the right way was drummed into me at a very early age (I started age 3) and rather like my multiplication tables it's something that's stuck with me, I do have a few bad habits when skiing, the most annoying is that I always turn more easily to the right than the left though I don't know why that should be, but in general for me skiing is instinctive and not difficult (thank God) which is probably why I enjoy skiing far more than any other sport.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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D G Orf, who does your boots/bindings for you? (just asking because some people turn better one way than the other, and it can be solved by making adjustments to the boots/bindings)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, funnily enough after SkiBartlett did my the set up on boots and skis for me last year I did notice an improvement, it's the first time anyone has set up the canting properly on a set of boots for me and I did find that it made an improvement
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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having not ski raced as a kid, I found the angulation thing tough to crack when instructor training over the past few years (took loads of practice/coaching to work out)....the park and ride habit is just so difficult to break on modern skis - lean over, let the the shape of my carving ski take over. However, if you want to get more performance on your skis - maybe icy, bit steeper than normal, need to hold an edge - work on angulation drills with your instructor, practice it and you really will not look back. You don't need to execute extreme angulation all the time - but it's a top tool to have in the box when speed increases and slopes do too + plus it'll help answer the "what do I do on ice" eternal question pupils give their instructors.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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D G Orf, Fair enough, I am very happy to believe you.
I started age 4 and had enough of a drumming into me that a client pointed out 19 years later that I had probably been taught by the Scottish-Norwegian SS in Aviemore. Which was true (if a little scary).
However, I have recognised that I have a habit of getting lazy and acquiring bad habits. It generally helps me to have a lesson every year or so to remove them. I'm probably pretty stupid though and should be able to work these things out myself. Thankfully, it's invariably laziness, although I think that indicates I'm not pushing myself hard enough. Although that's difficult to do on piste. Now there's an ambition for the coming season! Time for a new thread I think!
I have days where I turn better one way than the other too. I've put it down to one of those transient things. Although, the same teacher who gave me a lesson last year pointed out that I was just perceptibly stronger turning left than right, which is what I'd expect. It's more apparent to me on my skates.
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David Murdoch, I think the ability to turn one way better than the other is perfectly natural. I water skied competitively for a number of years and used an asymetric ski because my right turns were stronger than my left turns. Skiing is no different, except we don't have asymetric skis, although we can make them asymetric by varying the angulation/weight distribution. Just about every French ski instructor/guide has commented that I learnt to ski in Austria, which I did, but how they can see it now when I ski with my feet apart and not in the Arlberg style I was originally taught, I don't know.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 10-08-05 15:24; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David@traxvax, I agree. It feels more natural for me to turn left than right. It feels more natural for me to dive left than right if I'm playing football. In fact, most things like that feel more natural to me if it's to the left insted of the right.
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mark_s, it may be more natural, but it doesn't mean that one side's muscles are greatly different from the other sides. Well, that's my thoughts on it, but given the current level of agreement with any advice I give, it is obviously wrong.
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Wear The Fox Hat, true. I think quite a lot of it in my case is a mental issue. But it hinders your ability to perform in both 'directions' equally, so it's still an ability to turn one way better than the other. If you get what I mean
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Apparently it's quite normal for one side's muscles to be up to 10% weaker/stronger than the other's. My right turns have always been a bit better than my left. Funnily enough, my left side is a bit weaker. I think this means I have come to rely on good technique for the right-hand turns while I've had a bit more brute strength to rely on for my left-hand ones.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Arno, are you saying that your right thigh is 10% bigger than your left?
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Wear The Fox Hat, Everybody has a dominant side, you must know that?
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