 Poster: A snowHead
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We're getting close enough to the season for me to start getting twitchy about choosing bindings for my new skis 
I can't decide between the Barons and the F12s. While the F12s are touted as touring bindings, they seem to be more versatile than the Barons. I'm basing this assumption purely on the little "race-carve-freeride-powder" graphic that appears below each product.
* Baron's
* F12s
Based on my stats, which bindings would the snowHeads collective recommend? (As an aside, I've read last season's TGR threads about the F12 failures but am assuming that any design flaws will have been addressed by Marker in the new season's model).
My stats:
Height: 165cm (5'5")
Weight: 56kg (123lb or 8.8st)
Skis: Icelantic Pilgrim 169cm (127-90-115)
Boots: Garmont Xena (they come with interchangeable Alpine and AT soles)
Skills: still ski steep terrain slowly, love doing off-piste bumps in a cruisey manner, love powder, ski bullet-proof cautiously, can sort of carve
Aggression level: about 50%; I prefer a more chilled style to bombing down at breakneck speed
Preferred terrain: interesting terrain that requires some thought, agility and problem-solving in any snow conditions.
I ski mostly in Chamonix, so conditions are extremely variable.
Did my first bumpy tree skiing in thigh-deep powder last season and it felt like heaven.
Also did my first real - if accidental huck at about 3m. However, hucks over 1m are definitely no longer on the cards after last season's spinal injury and an entire summer spent recovering from it.
Multi-day tours with a heavy backpack are also no longer an option for the same reason. The most I'll do is bootpacking/skinning for a few hours to reach interesting terrain.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The F10 & 12 are unchanged for this season. I've seen a couple of F10/12 breakages & both were from knee falls in touring mode but both had 'big' users (6'/14st+) who'd ridden them hard - & should've really been on Barons/Dukes.
With your stats & hucking days over the F12's will be fine I'm sure - if they're not then Marker have a big problem.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Zero-G wrote: |
I can't decide between the Barons and the F12s. While the F12s are touted as touring bindings, they seem to be more versatile than the Barons. I'm basing this assumption purely on the little "race-carve-freeride-powder" graphic that appears below each product.
* Baron's
* F12s
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I'm certainly not an expert but that "race-carve-freeride-powder" graphic looks like complete marketing gobbledygook.
Now even Markers website says [i] "Who doesn’t know the DUKE or the BARON? Even though they come with all the necessary climbing features, these bindings are not conceptualized for touring purposes. The main focus is downhill performance and the best possible power transfer on wide skis. But a little hike in between two runs – sure, why not?"
It looks like Marker have ended up with two product lines which are very similar (except for weight). I would have thought more versatile would depend on the exact usage if you're hiking any distance you want the F12's, if you're doing as a bit of sidecountry and on-piste maybe go for the Barons.
Having said that if you look at the "stiffness" of the bindings the F12 beats the supposedly more burly Duke on http://www.wildsnow.com/379/backcountry-skiing-binding-flex-tests so if they have sorted out the reliability problems of the F12 then surely as the lighter one it's the one to get (assuming you can get them for a similar price).
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 16-08-11 23:10; edited 1 time in total
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spyderjon, ja, the words "riding hard" would never be used to describe my skiing. "Riding light" would be more appropriate.
So you think the F12s would be ok on my skis (rather than skinny, superlight touring skis)? Will also want to use them on the soon-to-be acquired WDF Directors.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 16-08-11 22:32; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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betterinblack, interesting link. So, in essence, the F12s will provide better control. If I go for the F12s, am assuming I will need to keep the AT soles on my boots permanently?
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| Zero-G wrote: |
| betterinblack, interesting link. So, in essence, the F12s will provide better control. If I go for the F12s, am assuming I will need to keep the AT soles on my boots permanently? |
TBH I'm not really convinced you can read to much into this one test on a single pair of bindings and one mount, however it does suggest the F12's wouldn't be a bad choice.
As for leaving the AT soles on permanently, the tours are suppose to be alpine sole compatible. If you're referring to the the suggestion on Wildsnow that they were "slightly stiffer than Duke, probably due to better AT boot compatibility of toe jaws", I guess you'd just have to try both soles and see if it made a difference to slop.
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I skied the F12s on a demo ski and to me they skied like a normal alpine binding, in contrast to the Fritschis I have on my own skis which I have issues with on the downhills. Handling the bindings unmounted in the shop, to me there was no contest, the F12s were significantly lighter and I think I will sell the Fritschis I have and mount my skis with F12s.
oh and you can definitely ski the F12s with alpine soles.
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| lynseyf wrote: |
| I skied the F12s on a demo ski and to me they skied like a normal alpine binding |
I've only ever skied alpine bindings on mid-fats, so I don't want them to feel too different.
Ugh. Life was much simpler when I was still pootling around pistes. But obviously nowhere near as much fun!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have used both. I had Barons on a pair of Scott Missions in Whistler last year, and I have tested various skis with F12 and F10 on them.
betterinblack has a fair point that the products look very similar, and we get asked a lot which to go for. Our recommendation is, if you are a skier who thinks they will use the touring mode every now and again, the Baron and Duke are (in actual use and feedback from the ski) the better bet we think. They feel slightly more positive on the turn, and a little more solid in the hands when adjusting or changing modes. If you are intending to use regularly and really get into or are already into touring and back country, the the F10 and F12 are a great binding. Just pick depending on your weight/DIN.
The F series sound different to click into (Sounds odd, but it is important for some, like me, who want to hear they are in the binding as well as feel it, any cyclist would say the same with Shimano vs Campagnolo, feeling the gear change) The F10/F12 has the new hollow chamber heel, it sounded a bit 'clicky' last year although it was working fine. I am advised the hollow chamber has been tweaked a bit to give a better acoustic and sound more substantial. Doesn't affect performance but there you go. The Duke/Baron has their standard heel piece, so sounds and feels more substantial, but in reality they are doing exactly the same thing, working.
If you are definitely going to be going off the beaten track and regularly using the touring mode, then the F series are very good! They are light weight, and for a touring binding offer good feedback through the ski when coming back down the piste. The crampon fits very well and quickly too.
Anyone who thinks fitting a touring mode binding will not feel any different to a standard binding will be disappointed, and this was why I was testing them to find out for myself. They do sit a little taller, and there is some torsional/flex differences between a standard screwed in binding and these AT style bindings, BUT I have to say they are very impressive all the same, and the benefits of having this versatility on your skis are obvious.
We are big Marker bindings fans, we own a ski binding test machine (Worth about £15K!) and they give consistently good results, and when I have tested these versions on the machine it is the same story. You DO need to make sure you set up the AFD plate correctly on the toe of the boot (They now supply a piece of thin coloured card to make this pretty foolproof) and you do need to pick the correct size (Small or Large) for your boot sole length.
If I was putting a pair of touring skis together with a freeride bias, I would still get the Fritschi Freeride Pros out and screw em in (or Quiver Killer them  ) but if I wanted a one quiver ski, with the versatility to go and explore whilst still having good descending qualities, the Markers fit the bill, and although I am a hefty 15 stone odd, I would probably go for the F12 over the Baron/Duke as I would be using them regularly for touring. But as a way of making a ski potentially more versatile, the Baron is a great binding for those still mainly between the piste markers.
If all you want to do is tour, then you can at that point look at the likes Fritschi, Dynafit and G3. Much more specialist. That's the nice thing about the Markers though, they give a chance to tour without having to go too specialist. And when the bug bites, that is when you will price up a pair of back country touring skis 
Hope this helps,
ScottyDog
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scottydog, nice post!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thank you all for your info!
Considering I'm skiing more off-piste than on but will be doing a maximum of a couple of hours of skinning/hiking to get somewhere, I'm leaning towards the Barons, which will be shared between the Pilgrims and the Directors.
Right, so when will the stores start selling the 2012 bindings? Want to get everything over to spyderjon for mounting well in time for the new season.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Zero-G, for what you describe I would go with the Barons (and I'm a big Dyna fan)... will leave you the options to ski an alpine or 'touring' boot with them depending on ski used/day out...
Only downside of Baron/Duke is if the binding is set correctly it takes a LOT of heel pressure to step in to them, could get interesting if you need to put them on while teetering about on a steep slope (ie if you are planning booting./climbing anything. (if they are set so you get an easy step in then at some point you will pre-release & watch a ski sail off into the distance...).
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offpisteskiing, can't you give them a little manual assist?
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| offpisteskiing, can't you give them a little manual assist? |
They are just very tight and you need to be pretty accurately aligned. Even stepping into them on the flat can be a bit of a challenge.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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They are just very tight and you need to be pretty accurately aligned
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I think I prefer this to describe my girls as opposed to my bindings.
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Even stepping into them on the flat can be a bit of a challenge.
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Although this describes my girls perfectly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, S & I having just acquired them on Mantras (yay! collecting this weekend) I will soon know for myself.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Zero-G, F12's
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, really? At the end of last season you were telling me Barons. What's changed? Remember, proper touring is no longer an option for me and I would prefer something closer to the feel of an Alpine binding.
Since I know nothing about these things, I am completely open to suggestions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| scottydog wrote: |
If I was putting a pair of touring skis together with a freeride bias, I would still get the Fritschi Freeride Pros out |
Can I ask why you say this? I got a pair of skis with Fritschis last year and they felt really different to me skiing. I skied them a couple of days back to back to try to get used to them but I constantly felt I was in the back seat and had to be very aware to get forward. Comparing weights online I think they are heavier than the F12s as well so why would you pick the Fritschis?
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| lynseyf wrote: |
| scottydog wrote: |
If I was putting a pair of touring skis together with a freeride bias, I would still get the Fritschi Freeride Pros out |
Can I ask why you say this? I got a pair of skis with Fritschis last year and they felt really different to me skiing. I skied them a couple of days back to back to try to get used to them but I constantly felt I was in the back seat and had to be very aware to get forward. Comparing weights online I think they are heavier than the F12s as well so why would you pick the Fritschis? |
I still think that for heavy touring the walking action on the Fritschis is hard to beat (Dynafit aside) as it feels more natural for me, so for a touring ski focussing on up more than down, and with several years of mountain bike racing in my messed up knees, a smooth walking action is essential. Also, I do think the multi height option on the back feels more stable. So for a purer touring ski this is where I would go. The Eagle seems to have caught up a lot with the Freride Pro this season too. Also, there is the fact you can switch to walk mode without removing the boot, which is handy for quick traversing sections or if the need arises to get out of somewhere quick when still skinned up.
However I still think that the F series is better downhill, which is why I personally rate it as the better all rounder for someone wanting an all-round option.
I would also check out your binding location on the ski if you are geting that back seat feeling. Sure, they sit (or at least feel) a little neutral front to back, but if you are on the back of them, might be worth playing with the binding position or at least checking it? depends what ski you have them on. You could play with the delta angles too, but I would check posiiton first. I don't get that feeling, but they are different to ski downhill, as I aluded to in my post.
And everyone is different! Be boring if we weren't!
ScottyDog
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scottydog, Thanks. I have them mounted on Volkl Auras -1cm which should put them the same place as the Mantras which I demoed and liked. I only got touring skis last year and only toured on them twice although I skied them more to try and get used to them. I have no idea about the difference going uphill with different bindings. I just didn't enjoy the downhill that much and don't see much point in putting all that effort getting somewhere for a so-so ski down.
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I treat my barons as a standard alpine binding, and tbh don't notice the difference. They're great for when you spot a line and have to hike to get to it, 1 hour hikes are fine but I wouldn't want to do more than 2 or 3... Not sure I would with the F12s either though, the problem is the stride movement as much as the weight. At that point Fritschi/Dynafit/etc would be a better choice.
At your weight I've be very surprised if the F12s aren't fine. I've check them out in person though, I thought them a bit flimsy and plasticky, and I'm not sure I'd trust them (to last) personally - but then I tend to abuse my gear a bit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My touring days are over before they even started, so although I was tempted by the lighter weight of the F12s I've decided to go for the Barons. Apparently, I'll have half of a killer two-ski quiver once they've been mounted  Now, excuse me while I strut off, stage left.
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Zero-G
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Apparently, I'll have half of a killer two-ski quiver once they've been mounted
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Don't expect to stop at two, I've just about justified to myself the need for a fourth pair, although sadly it'll have to wait at least a year.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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clarky999, don't even go there! I now have two pairs of Pilgrims but will be selling one pair. Just want to add the WDF Directors to the quiver; the Directors and the Pilgrims will be all I will need. Really. No... really
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Good luck with that
Nice quiver though!
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FAQ
